Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: punch on September 24, 2015, 02:16:03 pm
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I was rereading TBB I & IV today. In the "Other Bow Woods" chapter Paul Comstock says his favorite design is a Meare Heathe based design for white woods. In TBB IV most of the discussion/bow are a molly design. So knowing what we know about light tips=faster bows why would anyone ever make a Meare Heathe? Other than liking the looks of such a bow.
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Because it worksand has a good safety margin ... :)
I may be way off here, but I get the feeling that most Molle's we see are an over exaggerated modern take on the design and that in reality there was a blend of designs where the Molle is just the extreme end of the spectrum and the Meare Heath the other.
i think narrowing the tips is a natural evolution, wide tips just give you shoulders to act a nocks.... if you bind the tip with sinew then you can chop off the shoulders and go narrow.
I think we place too much stock on individual archaeological finds. That's what is so great about the Mary Rose Bows there are enough to be statistically significant.
I think the Molle is a slightly daft design... ok for accomplished bowyers but a nightmare for the newbie.
I've seen plenty where the levers were heavier than a bending tip would have been, and all they have achieved is to overload/overstress the inner limbs and add weight to the outer.
Del
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The design Comstock favored was a fairly radically evolved Meare Heath design. Shorter, not as wide and with more tapered outer limbs. The lighter tips are faster thought is taken to extremes when it's not the be all and end all of arrow speed.
Still, the Mollie design was more than a one off design. The more recent discovery adds to the picture.
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I am building a Meare Heath as of now. Cut from juniper and will be raw hide backed. I like the feel of trying to build what my ancestors had.
I want to experience that which they did. I have built 3 Molle's to what seems to be correct size. Love the way they shoot. I build Plains bows from
pictures of originals. Why ? To experience them the closest way I can to original. Arrow speed is good , but if you can still make the kill with a slower
bow what's the difference ? My take.
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I remember reading that with a heavy arrow the wide tips did not effect the arrow speed as much,, but my memory is not all that great sometimes :)
you can get the speed with just a little heavier bow,, :)
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I think that even though the mere Heath design isn't as fast or naturally smooth as other designs, it still has it's merits. This is evidenced by the fact that it was used for years by the natives.
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Which Natives?
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Wasn't it the eastern coast of North America, around virginia?
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No, it's from England or what is now known as England.
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bowsandarrow473, you may be thinking of the Wampanoag Sudbury bow, there are similarities between the two. The main differences being the overall lengths and the wood, hickory vs. yew.
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And the width and taper. More different than alike I would say.
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Because it worksand has a good safety margin ... :)
I may be way off here, but I get the feeling that most Molle's we see are an over exaggerated modern take on the design and that in reality there was a blend of designs where the Molle is just the extreme end of the spectrum and the Meare Heath the other.
I always thought one huge benefit of the molly design was the leverage that the stiff tips provided, aside from the speed. I always disagreed with the thinking that molly tips should bend a little or else you are loosing fps... even if that is true you are loosing a tiny bit of the super smooth draw that mollys have.
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Ahh.... Yes, it is from England. I suppose I confused the two. My bad, but still, a type of bow with wide tips used by at least two places that are separated by great amounts of water and land have bound to posses some type of advantage over say, a homelgard.
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The Sudbury bow did not have wide tips. Comsstock's modified Meare Heath actually looks a lot more like the original Holmegaard artifact rather than the wildly misinterpreted early versions.
Not sure why you would say those two would have any advantage though. Have you seen the artifact? It's a solid design.
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IIRC, there was an explanation that suggested that the more the work could be spread out over the whole limb, the less strained the bow need to be to get desired arrow performance. I believe the performance gain would be better seen with heavier hunting arrows, as the heavier outer limbs could be a penalty for lighter arrows.
I have often thought that some primitive designs such as these may have been more desirable in damp climates, as primitive settings with higher humidity probably didn't favor highly strained designs
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It is a good design/reliable and feel pretty sure they weren't worried about a few fps or chasing speed like some here do. Longevity I'm pretty sure was top priority. Just guessing here but if I was building them with a flint chip I know it would be mine. :)
Pappy
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Put your self in there shoes and youll understand why...back then durability n longevity were top priority as pappy said due to how they lived....and a well made one isnt gonna be much difference in fps...if i was them id trade a couple fps for longevity any day of the week. There lives depended a lot on them,and in this day and age they dont.
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I meant why would someone today make one other than the looks. Seems like it would be durable but so is my pyramid bow.
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Well then..if it doesnt fit your fancy then dont make one..no one hear is forcing you too. Diferent strokes for different folks as the ole saying goes. Some like it,and or like to do replica bows to feel how it wouldve felt for our ancient ancestors who did use them.
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Just to stir the pot a little bit, In "Archery: The Technical Side," it was proven through experimentation that light, narrow tips are not really any faster than heavy, thick tips. Keeping them around 1/2" wide or so is ideal for most bows, and narrowing them to pencil thin or smaller really doesn't do anything for the speed of the bow per Klopsteg and Hickman.
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Well then..if it doesnt fit your fancy then dont make one..no one hear is forcing you too. Diferent strokes for different folks as the ole saying goes. Some like it,and or like to do replica bows to feel how it wouldve felt for our ancient ancestors who did use them.
No you are taking it wrong. I want to build one but I am trying to figure out what the benefit of the design is. I can see the benefits of other designs and what their trade off are but the Meare Heathe is puzzling for me.
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Wide limbs distribute stress better.
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i think if you were to push the limits,, the wide limb,, would hold a longer draw without breaking,, especially if the wide tips were bending slightly,,only one way to find out :)
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Well then..if it doesnt fit your fancy then dont make one..no one hear is forcing you too. Diferent strokes for different folks as the ole saying goes. Some like it,and or like to do replica bows to feel how it wouldve felt for our ancient ancestors who did use them.
No you are taking it wrong. I want to build one but I am trying to figure out what the benefit of the design is. I can see the benefits of other designs and what their trade off are but the Meare Heathe is puzzling for me.
If a design is puzzling me, the curiosity alone is all the justification I require to try and build one. One can read the works of others and just assume that it's gospel, but I prefer to find out for myself. In my opinion, knowledge gleaned through ones own trial and error is nearly always better than trying to interpret the meaning of what others have written about there own findings or more often the case the interpretation of an interpretation of someone else's findings and experience. All that to say, if it interests you go ahead and build it. Josh
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Well then..if it doesnt fit your fancy then dont make one..no one hear is forcing you too. Diferent strokes for different folks as the ole saying goes. Some like it,and or like to do replica bows to feel how it wouldve felt for our ancient ancestors who did use them.
No you are taking it wrong. I want to build one but I am trying to figure out what the benefit of the design is. I can see the benefits of other designs and what their trade off are but the Meare Heathe is puzzling for me.
If a design is puzzling me, the curiosity alone is all the justification I require to try and build one. One can read the works of others and just assume that it's gospel, but I prefer to find out for myself. In my opinion, knowledge gleaned through ones own trial and error is nearly always better than trying to interpret the meaning of what others have written about there own findings or more often the case the interpretation of an interpretation of someone else's findings and experience. All that to say, if it interests you go ahead and build it. Josh
I tend to over think these things mostly because there are so many different designs I want to try and I am an engineer and I have a limited amount of time each week to work on them. I always look at the photos of Comstock's Meare Heathe bow but never get around to making one. I need to find a board and build one. And then I have all these staves you sent me keeping me busy. My brother keeps asking if I think I can get two bows out of that snakey piece. Thanks Josh! =P. Seriously I really appreciate it.
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i honestly think they spent more time worrying about putting meat on the table and sticking an arrow into their enemy than f.p.s. and which design did what...
they wanted something that didn't break and tossed the smaller pointy stick at what they wanted to kill...
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I have a feeling the bows that shot the hardest were preferred,, they were probably pretty picky about their personal weapon if there life depended on it,, if shooting all year round,, I have a feeling they could tell which bows were best without a chrono,,, depending on availability of course,, the guys that shot the best and brought home the most meat,,,probably preferred the best bow they could get,,, in a pinch ,, hunting skill would have to make up for lack of cast,, I have a feeling the archers were more sophisticated than some would imagine,, just my thought :) I am sure they shot bows for distance,, and a certain amount of pride or prestige would come from a hard shooting bow,, I dont think our mind set has changed much since then about that,,,,, :) :) :)
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Engineer and all others
pm me your email and I will send along a spreadsheet that I use. you can find out quite a bit about any design you "build"
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The modified versions of the Meare Heathe make serviceable bows today. However there is one school of thought which suggests the original was meant to be a gift/trophy bow and not a shootable weapon. There is no doubt that it was overbuilt, yet it broke. Also obvious is the ring violations on the back of the bow? Was this deliberate; and if so, is this the reason for the bindings around the limbs? Who knows.