Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Around the Campfire => Topic started by: sleek on August 17, 2015, 02:52:29 pm
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Well new is relative.... new to me that is. Its a 45 cal partiality tried ( id say complete but it all needs torn down redone and repaired in places...) 1940s kit. It didnt come with the lock. But I have a friend who forges damascus steel knives. Im gonna make the lock out of damascus. Never done this before but it should be fun.... and make me say a few oaths as well.... but what project doesnt? I have few clues as to the make of the kit, and will post pics later.
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Sounds cool!
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I don't know if they made a kits in the 40s, the earliest I have heard of was the old Dixie Gun Works kits but my knowledge is lacking in this area.
As for a Damascus lock, I have never seen one on any gun new or old. Of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder but the lock won't look right on the gun. Almost all builders pick a time period to replicate and try to use the correct parts for that style or period. For instance; a Germanic lock like a Siler on a Tennessee rifle would really look out of place, an English lock like a Ketland would be just right.
I saw pictures on line of a gun a guy built where he apparently like the striped ramrod look and decided to take a torch to his whole gun and proceeded to make his gun look like a barber pole with 2" wide black charred stripes. I thought "what a waste of good gun parts", the gun was an abomination after he "decorated" it.
When I asked him why he did it, his answer;"I like it", end of discussion.
If you do a good job on the gun, somewhere down the road you might want to sell it or trade it. Any anomaly with make this process more difficult.
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Sounds like a cool project to me. Challenging as heck but that makes the end rewards all that much more gratifying. I say go for it ;)
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Eric, I have no idea beyond what a gunsmith told me about it at a gunshow. As for replicating a specific era, I dont care to. I understand and appreciate your opinion on the matter and see its validity. But im gonna build this for me. Being a Hawkins, I can say its a new style and get away with it. It will be a Hawkins original! Haha....
Anyway, I love the look of Damascus and I intend to try my hand at this. After this one, im going to make probably two more. One that is a flint lock on one side, and percussion on the other. Never without an ignition source :) it will be double barrel. One rifled barrel the other smooth bore.
The one after that will be a percussion revolver rifle. Big bore too.... not sure what calibre yet. But I do know, I want Damascus steel in it.
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Could you post a picture of what you have to work with? I know a little about these guns and could probably tell you what you really have. I suspect the gunsmith gave you some incorrect information.
Just guessing, I would say you have an early CVA kit if it is a Hawkins. It could also be a a home built gun. In the early days, 50 and 60s, the information for building guns wasn't readily available and some pretty slopped up guns were made compared to what people make now.
The beauty of a correctly made gun is hard to beat. The link is for a guy who makes a Hawkins historically correct with the added flair of very good wood and perfect construction, better than the originals that Samuel made.
http://www.carveretripp.com/hawkenrifle.html
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Be an interesting prodject.. Let's see some pics of this bad boys raw beauty >:D
Thanks Leroy
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Be an interesting prodject.. Let's see some pics of this bad boys raw beauty >:D
Thanks Leroy
Oh it's raw alright!
I know a guy that does rendezvous. He makes the entire gun out of Damascus. But most of them are pistols! Patrick
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I should clarify an earlier statement. I said, " being a Hawkins ". I ment me, not the gun. Hawkins is my last name. So, anything I do to this gun will make it a Hawkins original.
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(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20150818_162132_zps74o5tnd4.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20150818_162132_zps74o5tnd4.jpg.html)
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(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20150818_162147_zpsonohkhjx.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20150818_162147_zpsonohkhjx.jpg.html)
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(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20150818_162209_zps504sacrb.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20150818_162209_zps504sacrb.jpg.html)
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I can not read whays written on the image above even with a magnifying glass. Oh, and the pic is upside down.
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Does it have a ramrod hole drilled under the barrel or is the last pipe stuck under the trigger guard original and all it has? Is it half stock or full stock? Don' t think it is kit, looks like a home built, some nice lines and some not so nice. I am almost leaning toward an original(1840-1870) that someone slopped up. The initialed inlay in the stock makes me think original.
Take a lot more well lit pictures and post it on the contemporary builders section at The American Longrifle and they will tell you exactly what you have. Be forewarned: if you have an original and tell them how you plan to alter it they will jump on you like you are planning to paint a mustache on the Mona Lisa.
They like close up pictures of the lock mortise, barrel and tang from the top down, nose cap, entry pipes, a full length shot, and trigger guard close up from the side and bottom and of course the side plate with the letters on it.
Does the barrel have any names of initials on the top flat? Any proof marks near the breech top or bottom as well as a barrel manufacturer name? Does it say "black powder only" anywhere on the barrel (modern manufacture).
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It has no stamp or etching at all on the octagon barrel. The ramrod tube is not drilled, rather mounted under the stock and between the trigger guard and stock as you see. The stock does not extend the full length of the barrel.
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I should also mention the barrel is cut inside with staight rifling. .. lands and grooves I'm told?
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I went to the web page yourl cited eric and didnt see a place to post pics, join, or otherwise discuss.
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Two screws removed the barrel. There is some sort of glue infused wood chip based bedding the barrel sets on. All the brass hardware is pinned in place with peened brass rods. The barrel looks like it has a welded nut on it that wasnt done very well. The stock looks formed completely by hand tools as I can obviously see all the file marks and wood gouge marks from making it. Even all the stdokes and direction of them. It seems as though at one point there was a hole bored down inside the stock for the rod to slide into but has maybe been filled with this bedding compound?
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Im worried the nut that welded on the nut may have damaged or warped the barrel. I see hammer marks on the upper side of it as if they were beating it back down.... im sad.
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(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20150818_210325_zpsrmyq11jm.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20150818_210325_zpsrmyq11jm.jpg.html)
Bedding compound made of wood chips and dust.
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(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20150818_210335_zpsdvt5fzjh.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20150818_210335_zpsdvt5fzjh.jpg.html)
Brass pins hold in the hardware.
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(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20150818_210349_zpsohacgxfu.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20150818_210349_zpsohacgxfu.jpg.html)
Those brass ramrod tubes look in the wrong spot.
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(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20150818_210359_zpscy4oef3d.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20150818_210359_zpscy4oef3d.jpg.html)
Interesting trigger texture
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(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20150818_210435_zpsuaob5d3r.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20150818_210435_zpsuaob5d3r.jpg.html)
The nut a nut welded on and bent the barrel downward from the cooling. Im gonna geind that crap off, reheat, bend back, check roundness, and if out of round, possibly rebore from 45 cal to 48 or 50, if I can keep enough wall thickness. I want the bore small as possible.
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(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20150818_210439_zps83l3dez5.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20150818_210439_zps83l3dez5.jpg.html)
Not only was he stupid, he wasn't even any good at it. Thats a terrible weld.
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(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20150818_210527_zpshucteg1f.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20150818_210527_zpshucteg1f.jpg.html)
This looks cast to me. Sand possibly from the texture.
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(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20150818_210539_zpsbkbofwwd.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20150818_210539_zpsbkbofwwd.jpg.html)
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I have never seen wiping stick thimbles placed like that. I have a few old Traditions/Cva locks that I will never use PM and you can have them one is in very good working order. A whole lot of geometry in a lock.
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I have never seen wiping stick thimbles placed like that. I have a few old Traditions/Cva locks that I will never use PM and you can have them one is in very good working order. A whole lot of geometry in a lock.
Well thats gosh almighty nice of you! Thanks! Even if the barrel cant be saved I can un-eff this stock and place another barrel in place.
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The fact that is doesn't have a ramrod hole makes it a amateurish home built gun and not an original.
I thought I could see a ramrod hole under the barrel in the lock mortise. The gun has been made from miss matched parts by someone who didn't know what they were doing and is not the original build. I still lean toward the stock being at one time from an original 19th century gun gun.
Welding on a barrel is bad news, it creates all kinds of stress related weaknesses according to the experts at on the long rifle site. A properly mounted barrel will have dovetailed underlugs for pins or keys to hold the stock to it. I miss drilled this one and had to solder on an extension to beef it up a bit.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/beck%20rifle/badholeunderlug.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/beck%20rifle/badholeunderlug.jpg.html)
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php
If you can stand honesty from a guy who has done only a couple of scratch flintlock builds, I would make a wall hanger out of the gun and not waste time trying to make a functional gun out of what you have to work with.
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Instead of being on the bottom of the forestock the rear entry pipe should be inletted below the barrel.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/English%20Fowler/entrypipewoodshaped_zps5822d833.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/English%20Fowler/entrypipewoodshaped_zps5822d833.jpg.html)
If your stock was originally a half stock you wouldn't have a rear ramrod pipe. The nose cap would have the hole for the ramrod cast into it. If your stock was originally a full stock that was cut down there will no evidence of a nose cap or rear rear ramrod entry pipe.
For an original half stock you would have a nose cap like this.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/799/1/FC-PA-14-B
If your gun was originally a halfstock and had the original barrel there would be an under rib screwed to the bottom of the barrel to hold the first two ramrod pipes.
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As for the rifling; you have a modern made barrel, it is unlikely it has straight rifling unless someone rifled it themselves without the proper rifling bench. There are some straight rifled barrels out there, none of modern manufacture that I have heard of. If you have a round ball barrel the twist would be 1 turn in 66 inches and would appear to be almost straight.
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I posted your pictures over at the American Longrifle site to see if the stock is original.
The guys won't be kind about what someone did to what was once a fine original gun.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=36851.msg353614#msg353614
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The fact that is doesn't have a ramrod hole makes it a amateurish home built gun and not an original.
I thought I could see a ramrod hole under the barrel in the lock mortise. The gun has been made from miss matched parts by someone who didn't know what they were doing and is not the original build. I still lean toward the stock being at one time from an original 19th century gun gun.
Welding on a barrel is bad news, it creates all kinds of stress related weaknesses according to the experts at on the long rifle site. A properly mounted barrel will have dovetailed underlugs for pins or keys to hold the stock to it. I miss drilled this one and had to solder on an extension to beef it up a bit.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/beck%20rifle/badholeunderlug.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/beck%20rifle/badholeunderlug.jpg.html)
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php
If you can stand honesty from a guy who has done only a couple of scratch flintlock builds, I would make a wall hanger out of the gun and not waste time trying to make a functional gun out of what you have to work with.
For a certainty I can appreciate blunt honesty. But, having nothing to loose but time and knowledge to gain, im gonna play with this thing anyway.
The plan....
Grind off that nut.
Multiple heat treats to normalize barrel stresses around the welded nut.
Machine a soft steel rod to fit bore diameter and run it down the barrel.
Heat the barrel to bend the kink out so the rod slides down.
Use ball guages to determine bore diameter in damaged area. Machine the barrel to the smallest diameter that fixes the problem.
Send barrel off for hardening and tempering.
The wood stock is next. I can save it but its gonna take much work.
After redoing the wood stock, I will put it all back together and hunt with it next year.
If this doesnt work, hang it on the wall. It only cost me $10.
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You got a long road ahead of you.. Gary at my bp club says ''It's not hard work just alot of it'' Good luck post pics of your progress.. It will be interesting
Thanks Leroy
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Nothing like a project to learn on.
Another thing; the hooked breech plug doesn't look like it was made for this barrel because the top flat on the barrel doesn't match up with plug. Someone without gun building knowledge probably just screwed in a breech plug until it was tight. A proper fit would have the face of the breech plug be a press fit of the breech face inside the barrel for a tight gas seal. I have done a couple of these and it was a two day pain of filing a little, checking the fit with dye check and repeat until you get a good seal.
You could cut all that filler out of your barrel channel and redo the job with Accuglass bedding compound and have a pretty good fit.
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All good notes to take note of. Thanks. I will do this.
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I took another look and noticed that is not a hooked breech or at least it doesn't look like one. Looks like a CVA type percussion breech plug screwed into the barrel.
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For the sake of safety I beg you not to try to use that barrel , I am on my knees begging DO NOT try to reuse that barrel !!!!!!!! I have no where near the muzzle loader knowledge Eric does , but I have put a few together. I buy some cheaper guns when I can mostly for the sights and hardware. I will now send you a lock and barrel if you want . The barrel is not much , and I have robbed the rear sights, but it is safe to fire !!!!!
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Keep in mind you are holding a pipe bomb to your face.
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Well, I dont know what to say. I had planned on light loads and pulling a long string to fire it.... many times.
But if you feel that strongly about it, id sure like to trade you something for your amazing generosity.
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Not looking for anything , Sleek. Most guys I am close with in person on here know I love flintlocks , and also know I was involved in a very bad caplock accident. I just hate to see something happen when I have parts I will never use. I don't build any caplock stuff and have that one lock that functions fine . The barrel is sound , it just has a bad bore. As I said it is yours send me your info , if you feel the need to send something that's cool ,if not that's cool too. Stay safe.
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I am a little touchy on the barrel topic myself. When I was 13 my best friend and I built a muzzle loader pistol with a copper pipe barrel. We always strapped it to a tree, lit the fuse and ran behind another tree before it went off.
One day when I wasn't around, he loaded it, held it in his hand and put a match to the touch hole. The gun blew up and killed him.
I am 67 years old and still think abut this incident almost daily.
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I have been shooting BP for 38 years. Mostly flinters. I would not use that barrel either.
Like the others have said: breech plug is not right. You never know if or when it could blow.
I've welded for 40+ years and by the looks of that so called weld you more than likely have
a very weak spot there. Grinding it off and heating to bend it will only make it that much WEAKER.
Do not trust it at all.
Dog
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I decided im going to make a table top lamp out of the barrel with some decorative wood and antler.
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I am going to save that poor stock however. Wildman, you said the bore is messed up in yoir barrel, whats wrong with it, and how would I fix it?
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You can send the roached out barrel from Wildman to Bobby Hoyt. For around $100 he will ream it out and re-rifle it into an essentially new barrel. There is none better to do this work.
Robert Hoyt at the
Freischutz Shop
700 Fairfield Station Rd.
Fairfield, Pa. 17320.
His phone # 717-642-6696 He doesn't have a website or email - you have to use the phone. Be prepared to wait for him to shut down a machine and walk to the phone - let it ring. .
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Another consideration, is what is the distance across the flats in your stocks barrel inlet. You need a barrel the same size. Lets say the barrel inlet is for a 1" across the flats barrel and Wildman's is 7/8" it won't work in your stock. The lock is another consideration.You can have a larger lock than your lock mortise and enlarge the mortise to fit the larger lock. A lock smaller than your lock mortise won't work well for you. You could make a Damascus lock plate to fit your mortise and fit the internals from Wildman's lock to it.
Of course all this adds up to ditching your stock, buy a slab of wood and fit Wildman's barrel and lock into it properly which takes some skills.
I haven't inletted a barrel or drilled a ramrod hole yet. I send my stock blank and barrel to a guy who specializes in this kind of work and get it done to perfection instead of spending two weeks with a chisel doing it myself with questionable results.
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If this is any help the barrel is 1'' across the flats non swamped , and the lock plate is what I would call small. Lock is an average CVA / Traditions production lock. Barrel was just neglected and could be reworked as Eric said. .50cal
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Man im happy to try it anyway, not kicking tires on generosity! I really thank you. Very much.
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You can send the roached out barrel from Wildman to Bobby Hoyt. For around $100 he will ream it out and re-rifle it into an essentially new barrel. There is none better to do this work.
Robert Hoyt at the
Freischutz Shop
700 Fairfield Station Rd.
Fairfield, Pa. 17320.
His phone # 717-642-6696 He doesn't have a website or email - you have to use the phone. Be prepared to wait for him to shut down a machine and walk to the phone - let it ring. .
I should talk to him about bumping my .36 up to a .40 cal.