Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Around the Campfire => Topic started by: Marc St Louis on July 29, 2015, 01:31:00 pm
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Do you think this guy might have made an error in judgement?
http://www.cbc.ca/news/trending/walter-palmer-cecil-the-lion-1.3170768
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Twice!! or have you read about the bear? Some people think laws are made for other people.
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I think his error in this case was to trust his paid guides. Could be a lesson to anyone that hunts out of town. Make sure your guide is legit. & if we as hunters start bashing this guy for a legal hunt on his part. Then we are just as bad as the anti's. IMHO. As for his past hunt ethics they shouldn't even be mentioned in this case, if he was legally hunting this lion.
Now on the other hand, the guides maybe a different story, punish them, for their lack of licenses, tags, permits, taking the client to the wrong area.
Put your self in this hunt (pick an animal) out of town and with a guide. Do you think you should be in trouble for the guide not having his license? I don't. Ed
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Money talks, sad to say.
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...and he paid $54,000 to shoot a lion.
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The fact that they tried to destroy the tracking collar doesn't say much for his argument. You figure that since he had a bit of a run in with the law before that he would have been more cautious and made certain that everything was above board.
If we back him up then aren't we essentially shooting ourselves in the foot?
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...and he shot the lion with a bow and had to finish him off 40 hours later with a gun. I'm just saying!
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I'm so mad about this that I've swore off Lion hunting.lol
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I just don't get why people pay insanely high amounts of money to shoot exotic animals. Was he going to eat that lion? I understand paying to go on guided hunts for elk, moose, bear, stuff like that. But to pay $54,000 dollars to shoot something I don't even consider a meat animal just doesn't make sense to me. I'm sure the native people over there eat lion but I'm sure he didn't pay that much to give them a couple of lion burgers.
That dentist will never come near my teeth.
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The fact that they tried to destroy the tracking collar doesn't say much for his argument. You figure that since he had a bit of a run in with the law before that he would have been more cautious and made certain that everything was above board.
If we back him up then aren't we essentially shooting ourselves in the foot?
I was ready to defend the guy based on his claims of being hoodwinked by unscrupulous guides (which does happen more than it should), but you make a good point. You don't shoot an animal with a bow, track it for 40hrs, shoot it again then skin it and not notice your guides trying to destroy a radio collar. That's kinda a clue....
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Lure an animal off a national park, shoot it at night in a spotlight. Have it suffer for 40 hours (reportedly). And then not notice a radio collar? Too fishy. He also has passed the buck and not taken credit where due. Not good. He deserves all the bad press he gets.
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Yeah, My wife jumped on this one. At first I just thought all the facts weren't there, like how everybody freaked out about the Rhino hunt with Corey Knowlton, but the more facts that come in, the worse it looks. This is gonna be rocket-fuel for the anti-hunters.
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I think it speaks a lot about our society though, and how emotionally stinted it is. I'm not talking about you guys. I'm talking about the people that are offended by EVERYTHING before they even read the details. One lion across the globe, T-shirts in stores, what some celebrity said, etc etc etc. It seems now "news" means telling us what we're supposed to be offended by this week.
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And I think people use the "they're offended" excuse to not look at they're actions. I guess if baiting a lion off of a national park and then shooting it in a spotlight makes you feel manly then more power to you. The damning evidence is he has been caught poaching before, he has been questioned about another instance. The lion he just killed had a tracking collar that he somehow overlooked while shooting it. And failed to report said collar after they found the injured animal and shot it with a rifle. This is as bad as a canned hunt. A hunt where you go and shoot a lion that was raised in a petting zoo. But, once again. If shooting your local farmers dog makes you feel tough, get at it!
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Both sides are trying to make political hay out of it. I have noticed the "facts" morph and change almost hourly, too.
At this point authorities have only begun to make the first inquiries into the actual events. Any rush to judgment is pointless. But isn't that the "zeitgeist" of the day? The rush to be offended?
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I agree, the story is fishy. I just think the story has gotten WAY more attention that it merits, given it happened across the glove, and that there are far more important things domestically that people are basically ignoring.
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I feel like this has gotten more attention than the Game of thrones writer getting killed by the lion. I wonder how she feels about Cecile.
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This whole story just doesn't add up. 50K is about the going price to take a legal lion in Africa, why poach one for that price? I'd be willing to bet the rich, idiot dentist got taken for a ride. Zimbabwe is one of the most corrupt places on the face of the earth.
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I just thought there might be a reason he was hunting next to a Wildlife Preserve with a Crossbow. If you read about the bear hunt this isn't his first Rodeo.
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The fact that they tried to destroy the tracking collar doesn't say much for his argument. You figure that since he had a bit of a run in with the law before that he would have been more cautious and made certain that everything was above board.
If we back him up then aren't we essentially shooting ourselves in the foot?
+1
It's people like that with more money than sense who tarnish all of us. Next thing you know we'll find we need a licence to own a bow.
It's not about one Lion or a couple of dead critters... I don't s'pose the Lion shed many tears over it's prey.
It's about responsible hunting for meat.
I don't s'pose for a minute he ate the Lion, or was even hungry enough to consider it.
He also sound s pretty incompetent if he couldn't kill it cleanly, after all it's not a pachyderm.
Del
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I was not going to post on this because it made me so angry. The man has no ethics, integrity, or scruples. He roams the world with his pockets full and does whatever he see's fit. I believe the Odawa had a way of dealing with trouble makers that might be appropriate in this case. Strip him naked, two small cuts on his butt, blind him and turn him loose for the hyenas to eat alive. Seems about right.
He reminds me of a schoolyard bully that needs a comeuppance severe enough to breach his type "A" attitude once and for all. Oh ya, string them guides up right beside him. Aint a single one of those people that are not equally guilty.....rant over.
rich
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If the lion was on a preserve, shouldn't his care takers
be at least as responsible for the death?
I am sorry, but for the world to pass FLASH judgement
in a case that has not been tried in court is barbaric.
What the hell ever happened to innocent until proven guilty.
The rifle shot and radio collar removal may have been done
with out the knowledge of the dentist. Seems like Cecil had quite a DO.
Elephants are rounded up on preserves and destroyed by the hundreds.
By the folks tasked to eerrr," preserve them".
If he is guilty it is the law that should pass judgement not the public.
Once trashed like this an innocent person cannot recuperate.
Some want more from the dentist than the law gives murders and rapists.
I wonder how many cars have crashed and killed People while the drivers
were texting this story?
Zuma
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I have mixed emotions on this deal. Do I think this guy was a pure as the driven snow ethical hunter that's above gaming the rules? No. Do I think this guy deserves all the hate and animosity over this? Nope. For one thing, he was hunting next to a preserve, not on it. It was a free ranging critter on presumably legal to hunt ground. I've hunted on property that was adjacent to posted property all my life. Is that any different? As far as the tracking collar goes, did you see the mane on that thing? I wouldn't have seen a collar in all that hair. Also, he paid a guide service what, by all accounts is the going rate for a lion hunt. Sounds like a legitimate effort to do things legal for the most part. I don't much appreciate giving the anti's more ammo to use against us, but I'll be darned if I'm going to let them tell me what to think of this mess. I refuse to let there rhetoric convince me to condemn a man without the facts. Furthermore, I agree with E. Jensen. Is there no more pressing issues to devote our time and energy towards than this? Josh
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It is possible he didn't see the collar but he was hunting with a bow and therefore would have had to wait for a"decent" shot so the likely hood that he did see it was pretty good. If he didn't then I am pretty sure he saw it when he went to collect his trophy and if he would have been an ethical hunter then he would have contacted authorities to report it, I don't think he did that. In any case, it's his conscience that will win the day.
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The decision to destroy the collar is, at least in my mind the point where a touchy situation became a bad one. I absolutely agree that as soon as the collar was discovered the authorities should have been notified. I can envision the scene from the point of discovery that really got this snowball rolling....
Dentist- oh crap, this lion has a tracking collar
Guide- so?
Dentist-shouldn't we turn this in?
Guide-we can't! we have no licenses.
Dentist-double crap! What did I pay you for?
Guide- you paid to shoot a lion. You shot one.
Dentist-how was I supposed to get the trophy home?
Guide- you won't have a trophy if you call the authorities.
Dentist-like hell! Get rid of that collar!
It was at this point that he went from sucker to idiot in my mind. Obviously I just made that all up and don't know anymore about the scene than anyone else. But after reading a few articles, that's how it played out in my mind. As I said I don't think he's innocent, but I don't think he was up to any shenanigans until the collar was found. It was all down hill from there. Truth be told, we'll never really know what happened. The courts have the ball, I'll let them run with it. There's too many more important things in life to worry about this too much. Josh
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@Zuma.
"shouldn't his care takers be at least as responsible for the death?"
Nope, total doublethink.
It's like saying it's your fault that someone stole your car because you didn't watch over it 24/7.
IMO that's the big problem today, the blame culture... it's never the fault of the person who does the dirty deed ... it's always someone else's fault, parents, school, the authorities, computer games, TV, the Chinese etc take your choice.
Nope... it's the guy who pulls the trigger, steals the car or looses the arrow.
If you don't like this post, don't blame me.... my Mrs Cat :-* made me write it ::) ;)
Del
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@Zuma.
"shouldn't his care takers be at least as responsible for the death?"
Nope, total doublethink.
It's like saying it's your fault that someone stole your car because you didn't watch over it 24/7.
IMO that's the big problem today, the blame culture... it's never the fault of the person who does the dirty deed ... it's always someone else's fault, parents, school, the authorities, computer games, TV, the Chinese etc take your choice.
Nope... it's the guy who pulls the trigger, steals the car or looses the arrow.
If you don't like this post, don't blame me.... my Mrs Cat :-* made me write it ::) ;)
Del
:)
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LOL, Well you guys are Cats! Sorry for your loss.
But then, why didn't I hear all this noise when my car was stolen?
I can understand the ruckus about the loss of the lion.That is a shame.
What I mean is-- if you pamper and use a wild animal
to make money ($ for safari) don't you have some responsibility for
it's safety?? If he was free to come and go from the preserve then the owners
of the preserve must have known the lion could fall into hunters sights.
You know the collar was used to guide tourists to the cat not to keep folks
from shooting it. An ear tag would have been a better deterrent.
Zuma
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The whole thing is a game. And $50K for a lion hunt is probably on the less expensive side. Guided hunts can be one of the most ridiculously overpriced things on the planet. Compare this to the price of a lion cub ($5K each here in the US) and you can see there is a lot of room for huge profits and greed. Bending the local laws soon follows in the name of easy tourism money.
The story is a waste of time, IMO. These hunters were "caught" by people who were making money from Cecil's life. Now that he's dead, they stand to loose money (unless there are donations rolling in for the purchase of new lions, new fences, etc...).
I tend to favor the "life" side of this money-making game, but all sides are all guilty of exploiting Cecil including the media outlets making money off views of this story.
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I have mixed emotions on this deal. Do I think this guy was a pure as the driven snow ethical hunter that's above gaming the rules? No. Do I think this guy deserves all the hate and animosity over this? Nope. For one thing, he was hunting next to a preserve, not on it. It was a free ranging critter on presumably legal to hunt ground. I've hunted on property that was adjacent to posted property all my life. Is that any different? As far as the tracking collar goes, did you see the mane on that thing? I wouldn't have seen a collar in all that hair. Also, he paid a guide service what, by all accounts is the going rate for a lion hunt. Sounds like a legitimate effort to do things legal for the most part. I don't much appreciate giving the anti's more ammo to use against us, but I'll be darned if I'm going to let them tell me what to think of this mess. I refuse to let there rhetoric convince me to condemn a man without the facts. Furthermore, I agree with E. Jensen. Is there no more pressing issues to devote our time and energy towards than this? Josh
Well spoken.
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Is it wrong to feel saddened by the killing of this magnificent predator? Or to be disgusted that he was lured from the preserve by using bait? From what I've read, the only law that was broken was that his guides didn't have a permit to take the lion and I doubt if the dentist will take any part of the fall for that. And maybe that's fair. To me, though, this type of "hunt" stinks worse than the carcass they baited him with.
I agree with jackcrafty in that it's always smart to follow the money if you want to get to the truth of a story. I read a quote from someone that studied the economic benefits of big game hunting in Zimbabwe. I'm paraphrasing, but it went like this; "Yes, sport hunting brings in millions of dollars. But non hunting tourists who visit the preserve bring in billions." I'm predicting that fewer wealthy dentists will be hunting Zimbabwe in the future. In the meantime, I hope that the worldwide interest and outrage over this story will force that country's government to do something about the major issues causing their lion population to dwindle; poaching and loss of habitat.
Call me a dreamer or a romantic or whatever, I don't care. I think everyone who makes wooden bows and loves to shoot them in this day and age has a touch of that anyway.
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Is it wrong to feel saddened by the killing of this magnificent predator? Or to be disgusted that he was lured from the preserve by using bait? From what I've read, the only law that was broken was that his guides didn't have a permit to take the lion and I doubt if the dentist will take any part of the fall for that. And maybe that's fair. To me, though, this type of "hunt" stinks worse than the carcass they baited him with.
I agree with jackcrafty in that it's always smart to follow the money if you want to get to the truth of a story. I read a quote from someone that studied the economic benefits of big game hunting in Zimbabwe. I'm paraphrasing, but it went like this; "Yes, sport hunting brings in millions of dollars. But non hunting tourists who visit the preserve bring in billions." I'm predicting that fewer wealthy dentists will be hunting Zimbabwe in the future. In the meantime, I hope that the worldwide interest and outrage over this story will force that country's government to do something about the major issues causing their lion population to dwindle; poaching and loss of habitat.
Call me a dreamer or a romantic or whatever, I don't care. I think everyone who makes wooden bows and loves to shoot them in this day and age has a touch of that anyway.
Very good perspective imo. Being a big time student of the loss of world wide Mega Fauna I hate to say we are both dreamers.
The planet can only support X amount of biology. If people and insects increase
some other life numbers must decline. Any creature over a hundred pounds is
endangered, Including the dentist. >:D
Zuma
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Feel very little about this circus....the guy is obviously a poacher that "thinks" his money gives him special privledges....it does not, and he should be prosecuted for poaching "if" what he did was illegal. I hate rich snobs that think their money is privledge above any other person on this planet.
If this were any of us here in the states, you bet your ass you would be prosecuted, by the law, and public opinion. I would like to offer my greatest gratitude to this idiot, (right, or wrong) for his selfishness in obtaining a animal that has brought another tarnishment to the hunting community.....A-hole! >:( >:(
These days you need to think before you shoot, it effects us all! What is done in the woods should stay in the woods, the minute it makes it out there is more reason to hate hunters! >:(
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That's a good, though scary point, Zuma. I slogged my way through Bill Bryson's "A Short History of Nearly Everything" a while back and it opened my eyes as to how truly lucky we humans are to have survived as a species (so far). His pointing out that modern humans have only existed for 0.0001 per cent of Earth's history is humbling and a bit scary, too. I gotta get off this topic, though. Getting depressed... :o
Luckily, I have a bow to work on. ;)
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It's amazing how badly we've screwed up the earth in that .0001% of it's history. :o
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It's amazing how badly we've screwed up the earth in that .0001% of it's history. :o
The natives had it right. It wasnt until those Europeans came ove did things really go south.
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It's amazing how badly we've screwed up the earth in that .0001% of it's history. :o
The natives had it right. It wasnt until those Europeans came ove did things really go south.
What about all the thousands of species that have been lost due to non-white human activity??? What about the entire ecosystem of Australia changing in a matter of a short millennium after the arrival of the dark skinned aboriginals, or the extinction of the moa in a short time after arrival of humans on their island? This is not a racial thing, this is a human thing.
Oh, and remember, there are cultures lost to history long before Europeans arrived in North America...the myth of the noble savage is just that, a myth. Genocide is not a modern European invention.
I am not an apologist for these events, just saying it has been the norm thru human history.
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Thanks, Very well said JW. :) I wanted to stay out of this one and now I can. ;) :)
Pappy
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I humbly concede the point...