Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Flintknapping => Topic started by: AncientTech on June 30, 2015, 05:00:54 pm
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(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/028.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/028.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/029_1.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/029_1.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/031.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/031.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/005.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/005.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/001.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/001.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/002.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/002.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/003.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/003.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/008.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/008.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/007.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/007.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/010.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/010.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/011.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/011.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/012.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/012.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/013.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/013.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/014.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/014.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/017.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/017.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/010a.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/010a.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/011a.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/011a.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/012a.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/012a.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/013a.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/013a.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/018.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/018.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/019.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/019.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/022.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/022.jpg.html)
(Note: Channel flake #2 was missing from the line up. Since it was undercut by channel flake #3, the missing channel flake does not affect the actual channel flake scar total. Still, I apologize for missing channel flake #2.)
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I just added the cleanup photos.
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It would be better with 20 more, detailed, photo's. ::)
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Also, here is another view after coast to coast removal:
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/009_1.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/test%2016/009_1.jpg.html)
In an umbrella technology, the traits are multi-faceted, based upon application. The constellations of traits cannot be oversimplified, as with some other technologies. Plus, the constellations of traits should also concur with the organic trail of tools, that is just as important as flakes, and flake scars. This is why I am quite clear about the tool that I have used. It will give the flake scar gurus something to think about...
Again, I apologize for not having more photos.
Edit: I am clear about the tool that I have used
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Your flake scars particularly at the initiation point are unlike anything I have ever seen on the flakes I have see from the archeological record, Find me some that are like what you are doing and you may have something. Also does this point fall within the parameters of the avg. Clovis point, It looks to be exceptionally thick.
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I think you've did exceptale maybe a little thick. Those flukes are hard I've had a huge pile of chips and broked points around a hude white oak beside my shop. Where I through my junk. Huge piles I broke dozens of points Never really geetting flukes like real points . Few short ones,
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Hello Crookedtree,
Thanks for the kind words. Actually, what is really exceptional about this point is that it was created with a technology that has not been seen for probably over a century. Also, it was created in raw chert, a type that most flintknappers would probably cook from twelve to fifteen hours. Aside from that, the flutes are pretty nice, too.
As for the thickness, the stone was already fairly narrow from the beginning. So, if I make it any thinner, I will have to reduce the width a little bit. If I had a better grade of stone, it would be easier to carry out further thinning. But, given what it is, there is some risk that I could lose too much width, and then it still would not look right. It is better to start out with stone that is a little wider.
I may just go back and further re-thin it. I do not have many ridges to follow. I may have to remove one small hump at the mid-section, and then work back from the tip, coast to coast style. I might be able to get away with this with diagonal coast to coast flaking...maybe. Also, since initiation morphologies tend to correspond to flaker tip morphologies ( at least, according to the late world class flintknapper, Philip Churchill), I may need to modify the tip of the flaker, slightly. If I leave it as is, I can always look for a wider piece of stone to work with down the road.
If the stone had this grain, I would probably re-thin it:
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/021.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/021.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/022.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/022.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/023.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/023.jpg.html)
So, it is a toss up, at this stage...
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Come on Ben,
Are you gonna tell us now that after all this talking, with the superior technology, you should be able to thin that down with no problems. What have you got to lose?
This is where the rubber meets the road. I see lots of thickness and plenty of width to reduce this to a point that would actually look like a Clovis. The idea that these end thinning flakes you drove off and then "built" your "Fluted" point around is laughable. It does not follow any known sequence for a knapping fluted point.
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The beginning of your "flutes" look a bit bulbous. Didn't you say your technique didn't make the bulbs of percussion? Also, are you ever planning on letting us in on your secret method?
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I am the most interesting man in the world, I don't always flint Knap but when I do the Clovis people take notes.... 8)
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I could not resist the challenge... So, I decided to see if I could get away with thinning the already narrow point, while not losing too much more width... Then, in the middle of the work, a very unexpected situation arose...
So, I was trying to be very mindful of not losing width. And, the first thing that I did was to inadvertently knock off the tip, by blowing through a freeze cracked fault line...
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/002.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/002.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/003.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/003.jpg.html)
This shot shows the results after some rounds of re-thinning, compared to the original tip that had been knocked off:
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/012.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/012.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/013.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/013.jpg.html)
This shows where the tip detached, while the newer point is compared against the original tip:
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/019.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/019.jpg.html)
Anyway, I decided to take a break and make another attempt at working with some of my past experiments.
During the fall of 2012, I was able to isolate what appeared to be the records of one particular Native American flintknapping technology, that seemed to work under some conditions, but not under other conditions. At that time, I eventually concluded that some versions of the technology could make up to coast to coast flaking, but not outré passé flaking, since a variable needed to produce outrepasse flaking was not present in the process.
Then, in January of 2015, after studying historical records for four years, I saw a match in a historical record that I predicted would produce outrepasse flaking. But, at the time, I only looked at this process within a particular line of methodology. And, it did work, as I have proven repeatedly, since January of 2015. But, the question that finally arose in my mind is whether the previous flaking methodology, from the previous experiments, would work with the newer overshot technology, as part of a broader umbrella technology.
At a certain level, this seemed like a big leap. So, I decided to put both lines of information to the test, first in general flaking, and then in bifacial flaking:
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/020.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/020.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/021.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/021.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/022.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/022.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/023.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/023.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/024a.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/024a.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/024.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/024.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/025.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/025.jpg.html)
And, here is the first attempt at bifacial thinning:
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/026.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/026.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/027.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/027.jpg.html)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/028.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/028.jpg.html)
B-B-B-B-BINGO!!!!!!!
This was a technology that was always there, and was what I needed, in order to help complete my theory. It also is part and parcel of the "umbrella technology" that I wrote about in past posts, that includes "outré passé flaking", and "coast to coast flaking", as well as finer flaking.
In this technology, what can be seen is a range of platform remnants, coupled with relatively large flakes, in extremely hard stone. The small platform remnants look like pin points. Medium platform remnants look like small semi-circles. And, large platform remnants look like thick semi-circles, on the surface of the flakes. Also, the large platform remnants can be found on fairly acutely shaped flakes. And, I previously saw such platforms on acutely shaped flakes, as being problematical, due to bending issues. At this point, it is no longer a mystery. Also, regarding the shapes of the larger platforms, I would have previously misidentified them as being signatures of another technology. But, once again, I could not resolve the acute shape of the flakes, due to bending issues that are incurred when other technologies are used that produce similar circular-lipped platforms.
The bifacial reduction experiment shows the effects of such flaking, on a small biface, made from a large flake. Just two of these experimental removals covered two thirds of one side of the biface. The flakes are relatively flat, and arc over the stone. Thus, the process should be good for rapid thinning with few removals, and large flake scars. Ironically, this flaking process is intrinsically tied to the outrepasse flaking process, and the coast to coast flaking process, even though the end results look physically different. As a result, three to four forms of flaking could all be dovetailed, under an umbrella technology, though the results all might look different. - heavy flaking, outrepasse, coast to coast, and finer flaking. So, there is now more candy in the paleo candy store!!
This development will basically alter all subsequent work. In higher grades of stone, this development will make it possible to make an early switch from hammerstone technology, to the "umbrella technology", that I have written about, and demonstrated, in the past. Also, this technology broadens the range of the "umbrella technology", which also helps to complete my theory.
Anyway, I finished re-thinning the fluted point. It might be close to a waisted point. Sorry for the overexposed lighting... 8)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/031.jpg) (http://s677.photobucket.com/user/benjamineble/media/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/Test%2018%20the%20Eagle%20has%20landed/031.jpg.html)
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Your learning.
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I think that Philip would have agreed, Mr. Nissly.
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Your flake scars particularly at the initiation point are unlike anything I have ever seen on the flakes I have see from the archeological record, Find me some that are like what you are doing and you may have something. Also does this point fall within the parameters of the avg. Clovis point, It looks to be exceptionally thick.
The point was thicker, and a bit narrow. I re-worked it thinner. It is close to becoming a post-Clovis generation point.
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Come on Ben,
Are you gonna tell us now that after all this talking, with the superior technology, you should be able to thin that down with no problems. What have you got to lose?
This is where the rubber meets the road. I see lots of thickness and plenty of width to reduce this to a point that would actually look like a Clovis. The idea that these end thinning flakes you drove off and then "built" your "Fluted" point around is laughable. It does not follow any known sequence for a knapping fluted point.
I thinned it down. Also, it is still raw material. There is no "back door heat treating" going on. You probably already know this though, from the feathering seen in the fractures. Colha is famous for a few things. And, that is why I work it all raw.