Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Spotted Dog on June 22, 2015, 03:16:40 pm
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I have a large amount of elk leg sinew pounded and stripped apart. Now I have heard of washing it out with soap.
That doesn't make since to me to wash out the natural elements in it. Also combing out. Now do any of you all do
this ? Combing I can understand but why ? Getting ready to back my first bow in the morning. Any help I'd be
very grateful.
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Check out my sinew backed hackberry static in the build alongs. Lots of pics for you to see. I never wash bows or sinew, never have and wont. Lots of fellas do.
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I will check it out.
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I don't wash the sinew from legs, they are pretty clean meaning no fat on the sinew. Sometimes if you are using back strap sinew there might be fat remaining on the sinew depending how well you scraped it when putting it up to dry. As far as combing I usually comb out my sinew before applying to the bow.
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I wash sinew and bows before combining the two. If I'm going to the trouble of sinew backing a bow I want it right the first time. I've had the sinew lit off of 3 bows. Since then I've washed the sinew and the bows back with Dawn dish soap. I rinse the sinew in warm water and the bow with boiling water. I haven't had a lift off since.
I would not wash the sinew now but store it dry.
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Fats and greases are perfectly natural. No argument there. But fats and greases are also a barrier preventing the hide glue (another natural component) from binding mechanically to wood (yet another natural component).
If you have even a hint of grease in the sinew, naturally, it will not bind as well as it is capable of. Using wood ash and water creates a weak lye solution that will react with fat to turn it into a natural soap that can be rinsed out. That's about as natural as it gets. All soaps are a variation on that theme, so in a sense, that is all natural, too.
In bowmaking, it is all about tradeoffs. You trade off speed for long term reliability, width versus depth, this versus that, etc. This is just another thing you have to balance for yourself. How risk averse are you to having your bow fail by the sinew delaminating? If it would bother you to put in loads of hours of work and the time/cost of materials just to have it turn into junk at the wrong moment, then trade a little time with Dawn dishwashing liquid wash job on the sinew.
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I have a stupid question based on my first one.
Mike Yancey and Ed Scott both use TBIII. Is there any problem with that ? I have never used hide glue.
I have Mike's dvd and have watched it closely.
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I don't think you will get the full potential from the sinew when using TBIII. Many have used it and like it. I have only use TBIII to seal a sinew back but not for applying sinew.
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Like hide glue, the TBIII sets up before the sinew dries. However, unlike hide glue, the TBIII does not allow the sinew to shorten as it cures. Because of this it does not allow the sinew to add reflex to the bow as it cures.
Yes, it works. But it is like running bad gas in a racing engine. Your cylinders go up and down and the wheels go roundy round....just not at full potential.
If you are making the effort to sinew the bow, there is no difference in the amount of work necessary to use hide glue as it is to use TBIII. Whichever route you take, it is messy, sticky, and you better come equipped with a sense of humor when you do it. I would rather get the full effect by using the hide glue.
Ok, now ask your stupid question. The one you asked was a good one.
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I do it just like PatB suggest and it works awesome! I won't do it any other way. Check out "gidget gets her sinew" in the how to and build along section that Pat done.
On the other hand, I done my first one with tight bond 2. Let me put it this way, it worked... But I promise I will never do that again. I may be wrong but I think Ed Scott uses tight bond liquid hide glue. But I've seen bad results with that to. Just get you some unflavored Knox gelatin. Put 3 packs in a 1/3 cup of water and let them sit for about 45 min. Then transfer that to a double boiler. (i use a small crock pot with water in it with a metal bowl floating on top) let the mixture "melt" if it's too hot to put your fingers in its too hot for the sinew. Patrick
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Well I did it and it looks like poop right now. I tried to comb it smooth but like combing a goats behind.
Wait and see......... I guess.
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TB sucks for sinew, shoulda' asked! Hide glue or Knox is all you need.
As far as what Ed uses, you have to look at his bows and consider their design. Like Yancey they are packed with glue, sawdust and some sinew, rasped smooth and shaped after they dry hard and then covered in rawhide AND skins. When you add that much "stuff" to a bow limb the glue you use is insignificant.
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not putting them guys down by any means, but what Pearl said. :)on all counts in his last post. :)
Pappy
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Exactly, no knocking of anybody. Just pointing out why and how it can and cant work with sinew.
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Well this was my first try. We will see. Next time I will do it the other way.
I hope this works. If not I learned something either way.
Thank you for your help.
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Ok then. I desire to learn this. How much time does it take ? Or how much time do you men put into
sinew backing? How do you comb it out and lay it down ?
This makes me feel dumb but a teacher from along time ago said the only dumb question is the one
you don't ask.
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I would do as I mentioned if its rough and lumpy. Mix up a batch of sawdust and glue then literally use a knife to spread it over the whole limb like toast. Let it cure hard for at least a few weeks. Then shape it smooth with a sanding block and rasps.
I would NEVER intentionally build a sinewed bow this way, but its a good save if your unhappy now.
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Thank you. I worked hard on this stave to get it right . I looked at your build a long. I guess I was trying to
hard. Mixing too many things from too many ideas. This is a juniper stave. I never liked grinding down one
of my welds. I should not have worked this bow in this manner.
How do you go about laying down sinew ?
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Just like the build along shows. One combed out hank at a time, starting at the grip and working out. Hide glue starts to get tacky if you work it too long, all you have to do is dip it back in the pot and its pliable again.
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When I do a sinewed bow I lay down the first layer, let it dry so I can see the thin area and add more to fill them. The third layer, usually shorter pieces is to even out the back. I don't mind if it is a little lumpy. We are not working fiberglass. After the sinew has cured I add skins over it for decoration and protection from moisture and abuse.
The guys that do the Asiatic Horn Bows lay the sinew very smoothly, almost like FG. The smoother the sinew is the more efficient it is.
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I am grateful for your help. Next one I will pay closer attention. Don't work harder , work smarter.
I figured out too late. I didn't squeeze the bundles flat. Only part of my mess up. :o
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I am sure it will work, may or may not be the prettiest but sinew will usually work pretty or not.
Look forward to seeing how it turns out. My thoughts are the same as Pat's on using TB or hide glue, both will work ,but I don't think you get the full potential of the sinew with TB, JMO, of course it is a bit easier and faster to dry so TB has it pluses I guess. :)
Pappy
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I never found a need to comb it. I separate the sinew and keep it in bundles of 12-14 strands, each bundle separated by the pages of a magazine. If the sinew is reduced in diameter sufficiently prior, when dipped in the hide glue, they soften in seconds. As it is softening, I dip and run the bundle between my fingers a few to several times. This squeegies off excess glue and nicely aligns the bundle in the shape of a flat ribbon before they're layed on the bow. They lay down nice, neat, and flat thataway. I dont see how combing would help any beyond that.
I don't degrease the sinew. Any grease or fatty/waxy feeling stuff seems to be on the outside, on the outer sheath which is discarded. Once it's removed, and the sinew is pounded, reduced, and separated into bundles, I simply keep it clean and dry until it's time to dip into the hide glue.
I do rough up and degrease the bow's back... and of course size it with glue prior to laying down sinew.
I LOVE the smell of hide glue.
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I dip the sinew in warm water lay it out on a clean surface and comb it with a mteal dog comb then dip in the glue and squeeze the excess glue out, it comes out pretty smooth, i wear nitrile gloves while i do it too
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are you all using leg or back sinew ?
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I personally only use leg sinew for backing my bows. I tried back sinew once and for personal preference I'd rather use leg. Patrick
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I can't seem to get the leg sinew to go flat or comb out . Just a stinking mess.
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I agree. I wont touch it myself. Back or bust.
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You could do a search for smooth sinew tips on here.
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I also prefer back sinew unless I can get cow leg sinew. So far its the best I've used and makes the neatest application.
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I found out the hard way that if the leg sinew isn't pounded well enough or if the bundles are too big when pounded and pulled apart. Then bundles wont lay flat or they will try raising on you when applying the bundles to the bow. I soak the sinew in water until the are thoroughly saturated, then I separate into bundles, and combed out. After I have them all combed out, then I dipped them in the hide glue and start applying onto the bow. I still smoothed them down on the bow as I apply the sinew. Also I keep the combed out sinew in a damp towel so the sinew don't dry out before I can apply it.
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I don't have a problem using leg sinew from whitetail deer. Most deer processors will give you all you want.
I wonder if some guys who have had problems getting leg sinew to lay down well, broke them down into fine enough strands? The more they're reduced in size, the better they are to work with and the nicer the end result. I take them down thin enough that if I try to divide it one more time, it's likely to bust in half as I peel them apart.
Another thing I noticed... some of you guys presoak the sinew in water. I don't do that because from their completely dried state, when they soak up ANYthing, I want them to be soaking up hide glue, not water. The more water that's in it, the less glue it can suck in. If the sinew is in fine enough strands, it softens in the hide glue very quickly anyway. Just my $.02
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Ok , I just checked the bow. I squeezed on the sinew and was able to flatten it and squeezed out glue.
NOW did I just screw up ??????
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I also wrap a freshly sinewed bow with strips of old bed sheets for about an hour or so. This helps to flatten and smooth the sinew and the old sheet strips breath well enough to not impede the drying process.
Dog, many folks use too much glue. This can cause a terrifying popping sound that will make you think its about to blow...but it ain't. The excess glue does add excess physical weight which can slow the bow down. I doubt you screwed up. Check it tomorrow and see if the sinew is still secure.
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My bow doesn't look as ugly today. Kind of funny, when we got home from a visitation I remembered
I put it in the garage. The sinew had drawn the bow into set of about 1 1/2". So I put it between 2
chairs and hung some weight on it . Gone all day for a funeral and now its back flat.
Learning all the time.
Dog
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I agree. I wont touch it myself. Back or bust.
I've only done one sinew backed bow, and I might not have a dog in this hunt......But just IMHO the sinew I got from Osage Outlaw which I am real sure was leg sinew was the best stuff I've see so far. It laid down real nice and I got the smoothest layers. I am now realizing how much work Clint did to get the sinew that nice. I think I have a enough to do another bow this winter. I hope to do a lot of pic's to show how nice it lays down.
Thanks again to Clint for a quality trade. But I know everyone knows he is a top notch guy...
But Pearl, I still don't understand why you don't use leg sinew. :-\
DBar
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Dbar your spot on with clints sinew, and its pretty long too
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Bubby...your right ...I've got to talk to Clint and find out what is his secret....
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I think his secret is simple hard work and attention to details
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Sounds like you know him.... :) :)
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The leg sinew I bought from Moscow hide and fur. Raw form elk rear leg. I had to beat the snot out of it to even
begin to break it down. The best I figure I didn't go far enough. You need to get it raw/ dried and try it. Lots of
hard work. You should be very grateful to have it done for you.
Dog
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I'm with ya S. Dog, Clint did a lot of work to prepare the leg sinew. I have some raw leg sinew and it takes a lot of delicate pounding to get it right if you know what I mean. Back sinew doesn't take near as much work to get it to the same point as leg sinew, that's is why most people like back sinew. IMHO
DBar
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How long do you let this glue and sinew dry before doing anything on it? I have read 10 days, 30 , and even 3 months.
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I agree. I wont touch it myself. Back or bust.
I've only done one sinew backed bow, and I might not have a dog in this hunt......But just IMHO the sinew I got from Osage Outlaw which I am real sure was leg sinew was the best stuff I've see so far. It laid down real nice and I got the smoothest layers. I am now realizing how much work Clint did to get the sinew that nice. I think I have a enough to do another bow this winter. I hope to do a lot of pic's to show how nice it lays down.
Thanks again to Clint for a quality trade. But I know everyone knows he is a top notch guy...
But Pearl, I still don't understand why you don't use leg sinew. :-\
DBar
Bub nailed it. Clint's leg sinew is that nice because he pours time into it. I wont. I can take a hank of back sinew and have angel hair in about 45 seconds. Why bother using anything else when I have gobs of it? Im not hard up for sinew and I have no problem driving by dead deer along the road!
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How long do you let this glue and sinew dry before doing anything on it? I have read 10 days, 30 , and even 3 months.
What temp and humidity is the bow stored in right now?
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Temp is upper 80s low 90s. humidity 50s. We have been getting lots of rain on the weekends.
Does it hurt to be in the sun ?
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TB takes longer to cure out, believe it or not. When TB get "buried" it takes forever to fully cure out. Id give it a month in those conditions, maybe 6 weeks if it dents easily under your thumb nail.
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Ok , thank you. Another question if you do not mind. On back sinew I know you use a scratcher but I have pounded and broke it down.
How fine do you go ? When I get mine tore down I scrape it with the edge of a knife against a smooth stone.
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I actually use a hair comb to get it separated farther. Im a believer in well laid, finely made sinew works best in a matrix. Just a belief of mine that I cant prove with numbers.