Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: chrisgedwards on June 04, 2015, 03:23:01 pm
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Hello everyone! Today I'm bringing two beautiful straight grained pieces of hickory to the love potion collective at American steel. These two boards are 2 inches wide, 72 inches long and I planed them down to 07/16" thick. I need feedback on my design, I've got a few concerns I'd love help with.
First off I'm making these two bows identical, one for me and one for someone who asked me to make them one. They will be stained with a dark blood red, polyurethane and then laser etched and painted by a psychedelic and fractal artist I know.
DIMENSIONS: 68-70" end to end, 2" wide, 8.5" handle fading 1.5" on each end, almost center cut, 1.5' of limbs from center stays parallel before fading off to 1/2" at tips. The handle will most likely be put in with smooth on, hickory 1/4" then a laminate of dark wood followed by hickory. Would love input on thickness here. Hoping for 50lbs at 27".
I want that width for the purpose of artwork surface area as well as strength considering the near center cut arrow shelf. Most hickory flat bows I read about are around 1.5-1.7" wide. Will this pose any problems?
I've had A LOT of trouble with handle pop. I just ordered my smooth on epoxy so until now I've only used tite bond 3. I even tried several Pennie nails but would rather not do that ever again. What do y'all think of the length of the handle?
Here are a few pics of my last bow. It was 1/2" thick and 62" long. Handle popped, wood cracked so I planed it down very thin to save it as a wall piece that I keep strung. Wood was so thin it didn't keep the recurved tips. I will be steam bending the tips of one of the two boards tonight. These bows tonight are also my first to be made with power tools. My previous ones were all hand tools and very labor intensive.
Thanks!
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Having trouble with posting pics from iphone, file size.
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I am guessing you are having a problem with your fades that is causing the handle pops. Maybe your handle thickness is not actually fading gradually at the fades? Some side view pictures would help. If your handle pieces are mating good with bow and the fade thickness is good titebond glue will suffice. If not I would not trust the smooth on either. Again pictures would help and maybe details of your gluing process.
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Well first off, it seems that you're a bit too focused on the goal and not the process of attaining the goal. Or in other words that I tell beginners that try to take every shortcut imaginable, learn to to enjoy the journey so that you may reach your destination already fulfilled. Some shortcuts only hasten failure, especially when just starting out. The hand tool approach is a slow process, but its also the best process for learning. For instance, you planed the entire board to 7/16". You've already severely lowered your chances at your 50# goal. There is a lot of variation in wood properties, even within a given species. Cutting it that thin might already be too thin before you even start tillering. Also, it severely raises your chances of handle pop off. You would be better off to glue your handle piece on to the full thickness board and then cut in gradual fades or transitions from handle to working limb. It's hard to tell from your pics, but it looks as though you have pretty abrupt edges to your glued on handle piece. If so, that's a certain recipe for handle pop off. You'll have better luck if the handle feathers out to working limb. I got out my crayons to illustrate(albeit poorly) what I suggest for changes to your design. The top pic is what i believe you have. The bottom part of the pic is my recommendations for improving your odds. Even in my improvement pic, the transistions should be longer than what i drew. Those suggestions should go along way towards improving your success rate. As far as the power tools go, keep that at a minimum for now. If you're using elbow grease and sweat to build your bows, chances are you will be more inclined to think out each step you take before you take it. This will really help the learning curve and I guarantee you will be that much prouder of your accomplishments if you have a little sweat equity invested in them. I hope that helps a little. Josh
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Very good info gun doc, here's a link to a build and you should find pics showing how to correct your http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,35312.0.html
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I've built a few board bows ;) in the year since getting into this fun hobby. Can't recall who provided me the points Josh (Gun Doc) did in above post, but they were, for me, among the keys to greatly improving odds of success. And a ferrier's rasp was the single best addition to my tool chest.
Good luck!
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I would not cut a sight window like in the pictures above. There isn't much meat in the riser to support a center cut shelf and it increases the chance of splitting due to the abrupt grain runout.
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You guys are amazing! Thanks for thee very useful advice. Yes the fades on my handle suck, far too abrupt, that I'll fix right away. I'll not use my current boards, ill buy some new hickory and only plane to 1/2" and only up to the handle region so I can keep the thickness of the riser area.
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If you are going to plane the whole bow, may I suggest stopping at 9/16 or even 5/8" and tiller from there.
I'd also agree with above about the arrow shelf. I never cut one at all and have no trouble getting good arrow flight. Haven't cut a shelf since the first few 18 years ago.
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One thing that helped me with handle dips and fades was staying away from power tools a good 3-4" away from the fades and doing the working limb/handle transition all with a rasp. My fades immediately got less abrupt.
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So I went back to love potion and threw together this bow in about an hour and a half. Decided to use the wood I already planed to 7/16, for practice. I had drunkenly messed the cuts the night before so I had to cut it way down.
70" ttt, 1.5" wide, 9" handle with 2" of handle fade on each side, titebond 1 (forgot #3 and still waiting on smooth on from 3rivers), tapers start at 5" past handle or 9.5" from center, 1/2" tips.
I'm very nervous about handle pop, I'm going to let the glue dry for 2-3 days. I may decide to use very small screw from the back into the handle. If i do this, I'll be adding a 1/32" or 1/16" hickory or redwood laminate on the back the same length as the handle or slightly larger.
Got to love working with the amphora art car with it's 10k led display going. We can even play old arcade games using it as a giant screen. The inside is floor to ceiling faux fur with a dance floor on the 2nd story and dj/bar booth. It makes quite an impression when out on the road/playa :-)
Thank you all so much for the advice, I hope to purchase more wood very soon!
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Having lots of trouble with pics
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Don't use a screw, take a heat gun and warm up the glue and take the handle OFF
Then take a 3/16" thick pc of wood 4" longer than the handle section an glue it between the bow and handle the reason the handles keep popping off is it is bending through the handle area and this will take care of that properly feathered out
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Gah how obvious, I could have put very thin laminates on before I added the handle. Ok, I'll go ahead and leave this one as is, see if the handle pops and start a new one with this knowledge. I have the other planed board, maybe I'll just use it for backings. Need more wood!
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this is a silly question... but why do you have a feather boa in the photos?
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Unfortunately I lost the boa last night... I'm making these bows at an artist community in Oakland called American steel. One of the 150 or so studios in the giant wharehouse is a burningman camp and artist/maker space called love potion. Access to tools there and collective wisdom is unbelievable, laser cutter, 3d printers, welding machines, forges... A lot of the burningman art cars and art come from American steel. So the community is extremely eccentric, I was wearing that boa while in a fur coat and pinstripes while ripping that wood on the saw etc, took it off to take the pic and it seemed fitting for the photos :-) there were three parties going on within about 100 feet of me, large flames flowing up to the ceiling and curling the paint every few moments.
Another collective there, the department of spontNeous combustion, specializes in making flame throwers and other fire artwork. Met a guy last night with a flaming top hat who I think I left my boa with...
There's something really amazing about being able to work on my bowyer skills while behind me a flame thrower is going off, someone's driving by in a giant skull, edm is playing, someone else is welding a giant metal sculpture while someone else is sewing up latex outfits. I'm suprised the boa is the only thing that got into the picture, there was a lot going on around me lol.
Everyone there loves the idea of making a bow, the primitive nature of them very much captures their imagination, even if the few I have are very poor indeed.
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oh... ok...
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You have a group in your area that makes wood bow, not sure how they would take to you wearing a boa but it might not bother them.
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Sorta funny that the boa gets more attention than the art car or flamethrowers, heh. I understand all people arnt as accepting of eccentricity, different lifestyles - what have you. I more than know how to be someone I'm not so that I can fit in around new people... Sad none the less.
I'd love to hear about the local group, someone that teaches at the crucible, also in Oakland, was telling me about a group of people that get together to build all sorts of primitive tools. I'd really enjoy learning proper stone knapping techniques, I'd like an atlatl, fire piston etc etc. Mountain men I think was the name? Very interested in local primitive hunter gather groups as well. Hopefully I'll make it by the shop tomorrow to start on a new piece off wood with the riser area not planed down so low before handle glued on.
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I was teasing you a bit. I never make a bow with a glued on handle any thinner than 3/4" where I glue the handle on. This would be for a 50# bow no longer than 66". A lighter bow you might go a bit thinner or a shorter bow.
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No thinner than 3/4" at the handle? So, I've seen so many different builds for board bows, most of which planed the whole board (new to this site, this was elsewhere). If I have a 9" handle, 2" fade on each end (5" non faded length of handle) what distance would u recommend the board fade down to the 1/2" or so thick region? Would an inch be too short?
I may have my terminology wrong, when I say fades on the limbs I mean the limbs were parallel in width through the handle then the fades is where it starts start to taper down to 1/2" wide. Do the fades also indicate the region where the riser thickness goes from 3/4" (without glued handle) down to the thickness of the rest of the board? (Sorry if that was jumbled, I'm still waiting on the ttbb so I can learn proper terminology).
As far as the enter cut handle, I LOVE the way it looks, I'll try to cut it more off center next time. I of course will start messing around with other handle styles, there is something uncontrollably attractive about a long bow, with a D profile that shoots of the hand.
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The way I do it is I glue an 8" X3/4" thick pice to the center of my board. After that dries I cout my thickness on the board to about 1/2". I start to angle my cut up at the edge of the 8" board I just glued on so my total thick area is 8" and includes 2" of fade on each side of the handle. The board I cglued on is not a bit shorter than 8' as part of the fade takes place on the original board.
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If you read my easy board bow build that i linked it will give you pics and measurements as far as the length of fades you can go as short as an inch to three with two maybe a nice length for a rookie, and i don't have a problem with the boa just hope it don't get hung up in the string on the loose :laugh:
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Thanks again everyone, only place I know of in the east bay for quality wood is closed today. Hopefully tomorrow after work I can pick up some hickory board, post pics and get final reviews on the design before I cut/glue.
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I've been very busy, haven't had a chance to return to American steel until today. Started a brand new bow, didn't even want to finish the last one.
2" wide, 70" end to end, 9" Purple Heart riser with hickory laminate on top, 1/2" thick limbs, fades start at 10" from center, .87 or so thick in riser. Thing is a beast, I'm putting smooth on the riser handle right now, hopefully before the party starts.
would love feedback!
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What do you mean fades start 10" from center?
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It's very possible my terms are still quite off. 10" from the center line on the bow (70" end to end so at 45" from opposite end) the width of the bow goes from the central 2" wide and starts to taper to 1/2" in width at the ends. Sorry the party has started here in the shop, my responses may be discombobulated but I'll do my best ;-)
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Pic before I glued
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Oh ok thats not the fade that it the profile taper, the fades as most on here will tell you is where the handle fades or blends into the working limb from the side
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The fade is illustrated. It is the part of the bow that "fades" up into the handle. Or the handle "fades" into the limb, however you want to say it.
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No wonder there has been such confusion when I describe my projected dimensions. Thank you for the correction. Does this unfinished bow appear to be an improvement over the last one? Handle is awfully thick, I'm considering leaving the top piece of hickory off. Will probably cut to 1/4" from center.
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Once you get it bending good you can shape the handle any way you like, hi wrist bulbous check out some finished bow posts and see what you like
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I've been so overwhelmed lately, haven't had a chance to work much or post here. I started rounding the fades and roughing the handle out. I need to make a tiller jig asap and purchase a scale. I just can't get over how much more solid this bow feels with raised section under the glued handle. Not to mention the thing is a beast, nothing like my wimpy previous bows.
The other wood with the metal in the pic is a small crossbow I just started, very roughly cut with the machining not yet done etcetera etc. I have pretty bad ADHD so jumping between the projects keeps me sane ish.
I bent the previous bow to failure (on purpose). HANDLE DIDNT POP! Instead the limb broke right where it transitioned into the glued on riser. I never have broken hickory before, made me a little concerned about the limb thickness of this one and the woods moisture content.
Btw this one is cut about 1/4" from center. I won't shape anymore until it's tillered. Not sure if I'll be recurving it, probably not.