Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: deerhunter97370 on February 02, 2008, 11:59:13 pm
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I heard a tell that Welsh bowmen were able to shoot though oak doors. Does anyone know the valitity of this. Joel
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I think this is what you are referring to?
"Gerald of barry, who, speaking of an attack upon Abergavenny castle, states that the welsh archers discharged arrows which penetrated on oaken gate four fingers thick, and that the feat was considered by the garrison so remarkable that the gate and protruding arrows on both sides were carefully preserved. There bows where made of the wild Elm".
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Joel I dont dout that. Im pretty sure 180# will slice right through. Marlon
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Thanks guys. Im glad its not a myth.
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We had a discussion about this over on the other forum. Everyone finds it hard to believe that someone could shoot though 4 inches of seasoned oak. Maybe the arrows hit a joint or a crack in the wood?
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I doubt it's a complete myth. I've seen what heavy arrows do mean things form strong bows- most of which aren't nearly as big and strong as what they used for war.
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But 4 finger's of Solid Oak may be stretching it a bit ;D,Some old Oak you cant even hammer nail's into it's so hard!
There's also one what say's the arrow penetrated the rider's thigh armour went through his saddle and killed his horse! Pinning him to the beast ;D.
Is anyone making Bow's out of Wych Elm? (Ulmus glabra) There's not many of them about around here anymore due to dutch Elm Disease,does it grow in America?
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I would say that the tale is based upon the fact that the arrows penetrated a suprisingly thick door. If it hadn't been a real feet that was hard to believe it wouldn't have been rememberd and reported.
I think I have some Wych Elm, cut here in Kent. It split a lot easier than other Elm I have cut in the past, which i think is one of Wych Elms characteristics. I am making a flatbow with an axe and it cuts easier than english elm as well. I have some other staves of this "elm" drying so will try a longbow one of these days.
The being pinned through the legs and killing the horse is possible. The North American plains indians could apparently ride alongside a buffalo and shoot it, the arrow going through and killing the calf running beside it.
Mark in England
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All sorts of wonderful stories exist. Hard to know what is true. I'm sure most of them are, but some embellishment must be expected.
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Lots of wych elm here. I've made two narrow, bend-through-the-handle flatbows out of the wood, and now have a 72" trunk seasoning I'm trying to coax 70#@30" out of, more or less in ELB style. A very bendy wood, not too strong in either compression or tension it seems (seen lots of mysterious breaks in clean wych limbs) and a real bitch to try to line up the tips and string of a long, narrow bow out of a smallish tree. Wych elm likes to bend every wych way!
Tuukka
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Tell me about it... They look great when freshly cut. Two months later totally contorted.
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Tell me about it... They look great when freshly cut. Two months later totally contorted.
would they dry straighter if strped to another board?
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if you sealed the bark ,and cuts on the ends and slow seasond thestave whith glue or latex paint ,migh help the warping and twisting? ???
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Yes I think strapping helps, but they still do their own thing.
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Artificially slow seasoning, strapping etc. help avoid drying distortion, but the true test with wych elm is to start tillering it. Only then will the stave reveal what it wants to do. As in, bend sideways so severely that the string lies three inches off the handle - and laboriously heat-correcting the bend will only make it come back upon the first couple redraws. Or the top limb, shaved down to exact same dimensions as the lower limb, suddenly pulls 40# while the lower one still pulls 60# (ie. all the bend is shifted to the upper limb). Not much you can do there, if a 60-pounder is what you want. YMMV.
Tuukka
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Another 2 cents on the myth. 4 fingers back then might not be as big as most people think, if I recall from my history lessons (which are nearly history themselves) the average height of a man back then was considerabley less than now, by roughly a foot. So it stands to reason that the fingers would be much smaller as well. Albeit, we're not talking half the size but weight measurements would not have altered as the other. A heavy weighted bow back then is the same as a heavy weighted bow now but relational measurements would differ.
Thoughts?
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Finger and hand sizes do not generally depend on height and stay failry constant. Short people with fat fingers have much the same hand size as tall people with fat fingers.
There is good evidence that people from some ages were as tall or taller than the current average.
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Aye it's a Myth that people in the middleage were shorter than the current average ;D.
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Don't go throwin facts at me, I was trying to sound smart. ;D
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Bear in mind that in many respects Geraldus has the reputation of not being the most reliable witness and that his comment is essentially a repetition of hearsay.
Having said that, has anyone here actually shot into solid oak? I have at Sherwood where I taught archery and I can only take this report seriously if the door was either in poor condition and not as thick as reported.
Rod.
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I wonder whether the English exagerated the story. They probably had to explain why they were being thrashed by the Welsh.
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Thanks guys for all the info on this. Rod I put a field point an inch and a haft into a probly pine 4x4 post with a 50# bow. About three years ago. Thats the closesed I come. But I bought 3 2" x 12" red oak boards from a local hardware store and will start penatration test soon, and increase in bow weight and arrow size as time goes on and as I make stronger bows. I wiil post Pics when I start. Joel
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I shot a field point into a live mature oak tree and it didn't even go in as far as the shaft but it was very difficult to get out again.
I can see a heavy bodkin getting quite good penetration on a plank that is very dry, even splitting the wood if the grain orientation permits. But clean penetration of 4" of sound oak sounds to me like poetic licence.
If it was so, those shafts would still be in there, you would not get them out short of destroying the door.
Rod.
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I have shot a needle bodkin into a wooden fencing pole with a penertration of over 2 1/2 inches. This was shot from an 120lb ELB and thanks to the man who dug it out with his rondel!
Outcaste
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Another 2 cents on the myth. 4 fingers back then might not be as big as most people think, if I recall from my history lessons (which are nearly history themselves) the average height of a man back then was considerabley less than now, by roughly a foot. So it stands to reason that the fingers would be much smaller as well. Albeit, we're not talking half the size but weight measurements would not have altered as the other. A heavy weighted bow back then is the same as a heavy weighted bow now but relational measurements would differ.
Thoughts?
Interesting thought but again another myth, hieghts in the middle ages where comparable to today, the average height now is only about one inch more than it was then. They had a very good diet, when the crops didn't fail :D
The qoute has probably been mistranslated by historians with no idea about the penetrative powers of a bow. It's most likely that the door was that thick and the arrows penetrated to a depth so that they couldn't get the buggers out agian, that has been interpreted that the arrows went right the way through which is extremely unlikely.
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Interesting thought but again another myth, hieghts in the middle ages where comparable to today, the average height now is only about one inch more than it was then. They had a very good diet, when the crops didn't fail :D
I don't really believe that. In the place where I live is the world's largest collection of historical arms and armours (http://www.zeughaus.at (http://www.zeughaus.at), from 24th of February you will be able to see a number of their exhibits including a really beautiful parade armour in the Cleveland Museum of Art if that is anywhere near your place) and the armours that they have there just don't fit a man of today's average size. The breast plates are way too small and only teenagers and some women can lower the nose protectors when wearing a helmet because otherwise the heads are too big for the helmets (I tried that myself last sunday..). The guide said that while the rich could have been about our size, the majority had a much smaller built and he said that the main reason was malnutrition.
I have also visited a number of countrymen houses from the 16th and 17th century and they also don't appear to be have been built for 69" people. You have to take care not to bump your head when walking through a door and the beds were so short you would hardly believe they were made for adults.
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Interesting thought but again another myth, hieghts in the middle ages where comparable to today, the average height now is only about one inch more than it was then. They had a very good diet, when the crops didn't fail :D
I don't really believe that. In the place where I live is the world's largest collection of historical arms and armours (http://www.zeughaus.at (http://www.zeughaus.at), from 24th of February you will be able to see a number of their exhibits including a really beautiful parade armour in the Cleveland Museum of Art if that is anywhere near your place) and the armours that they have there just don't fit a man of today's average size. The breast plates are way too small and only teenagers and some women can lower the nose protectors when wearing a helmet because otherwise the heads are too big for the helmets (I tried that myself last sunday..). The guide said that while the rich could have been about our size, the majority had a much smaller built and he said that the main reason was malnutrition.
I have also visited a number of countrymen houses from the 16th and 17th century and they also don't appear to be have been built for 69" people. You have to take care not to bump your head when walking through a door and the beds were so short you would hardly believe they were made for adults.
We tend to think these days of a linear increase in just about everything, kids these days seem to be bigger and cars are faster than they were twenty years ago. Over the last 100years there has been a noticable increase in height, I'm gob smacked at how tall a lot of 18 year olds seem to be these days most seem to over 6ft tall. But as with most things it's the extremes you notice.
Height throughout history has gone through many fluctuations depending on nutrition and population density. Studies of the skeletons found on the Mary Rose show average height was 5'8" and studies from 14th Century skeletons in Poland give the same average. It is interesting to note that it is the same average height as found amongst men in Australia today, in the uk I believe it is very slightly higher.
As for houses, doorways are no indication of how tall a man is, it is more an indicator of his wealth. A poor man could afford a smaller place and to heat it cost money and effort, bigger doors led to more heat loss, higher ceilings meant it took longer to heat. My wifes sister lives in an early 15th century house, the original cieling levels can be easily seen and they are much higher than those there today. Does that imply that the original owners where all over 6' 6", no of course not. It merely shows that it was a wealthy household and could afford a large spacious house.
It is also known that heights dropped from the 1700's onwards as society changed from a rural to urban based one, whilst it is true that an average man today would stand higher than someone in an industrial revolution mill it is also true that a 15th Century male would on average look down on that mill worker.
I have a good friend who is studing for his phd in medieval history, specialising in military defences and as part of that he worked at the Royal Armouries, trying telling him that everyone in the medieval days was 5' 2". Sorry that sounds flipant. He illustrated the point by showing me a photo of a collection of armour in I believe Italy. Looking at it it looked odd, one suit of armour was huge and all the others looked small, he then pointed out that most of the smaller suits would be worn by men standing about 5' 10" which put the larger suit at about 6' 6" :o
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I have been thinking about it since I wrote it, well, besides doing my day job which required the greater part of my attention ;) I fell for something that I frequently found annoying in discussions or books, that is generalizing. You already get into trouble when you say something along the lines of "in the middle ages this and that" because the time span is just too large. I should have said something more like judging by the armour (which was made in 3 sizes, as a "drafted" peasant you were apparently lucky to be supplied one that fits) the average height of the people in Styria was smaller than that of today.
6'6" is quite a height, if you'd put on one of the Zeughaus armours you'd be wearing a crop top, provided you are thin enough to fit in width :D
Of course they have larger armours, too, mainly the more expensive decorated ones, but I can't tell you any dimensions or how broad one could be to fit in with thick clothing underneath.
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I don't really believe that. In the place where I live is the world's largest collection of historical arms and armours (http://www.zeughaus.at, from 24th of February you will be able to see a number of their exhibits including a really beautiful parade armour in the Cleveland Museum of Art if that is anywhere near your place) and the armours that they have there just don't fit a man of today's average size. The breast plates are way too small and only teenagers and some women can lower the nose protectors when wearing a helmet because otherwise the heads are too big for the helmets (I tried that myself last sunday..). The guide said that while the rich could have been about our size, the majority had a much smaller built and he said that the main reason was malnutrition.
I have also visited a number of countrymen houses from the 16th and 17th century and they also don't appear to be have been built for 69" people. You have to take care not to bump your head when walking through a door and the beds were so short you would hardly believe they were made for adults.
I live near Cleveland but have never heard of this museum? is it in Cleveland in the North East of England or Cleveland in America?
Test's on Archer's bones have proved that they had quite a good diet,far better than what we eat today infact,lot's of vegetable's and grain's for those bugger's,microwave meals and processed meat are a far worse diet.A lot of old houses in England have low ceiling's but they've also had the floor's raised so you cant really use that as an example.Same goes for the Ship's of the Line (Warships),the sailor's werent midget's but they had to stoop when in the gundeck,that's life i'm afraid it's a warship not a cruiser! sailor's comfort isnt a factor when designing the ships.
Ever heard the expression "you cant swing a cat in here" the cat isnt a moggy it's a cat of nine tails'a Royal Navy Whip used for disciplining the men.There was no room to lash the men under the deck so they went up top to get their back's opened.
Andy
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It is the one in the US. I didn't know there was a Cleveland in the UK, but bearing in mind that there are numerous cities called London there I should not be surprised ;D
The link to the exhibition is [url]http://www.clevelandart.org/exhibcef/armsarmor/html/index.html[url], it is called Arms and Armor from Imperial Austria (click Exhibition Highlights and look at the topmost armor, what a masterpiece...).
A lot of old houses in England have low ceiling's but they've also had the floor's raised so you cant really use that as an example.
I don't really know about that, but from what I saw I'd say the floors were still original. The ceilings were low, but high enough for me (6' tall) to walk upright. This topic is really starting to interest me, I think I need to go to this museum again and ask some questions. The rooms were pretty dark because there were few and small windows. Small windows and doors make sense regarding keeping it warm. On the other hand the houses there had only one big oven in the kitchen so the other rooms were not heated. Unfortunately the museum is closed during winter, because now would be a good time to go and find out what it's like in the unheated parts of those houses. There are still the small beds, maybe people slept with their legs tucked in? I have no idea :)
I do not doubt that the archers had a healthier diet than the average person today, no big deal given the sh*t people are happily eating.
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I don't really know about that, but from what I saw I'd say the floors were still original
I dont know about Austrian Homes but English Houses had earthen floor's,so adding board's raises the flooring up a foot or so.With regard's to the size of the window's,thats due to them being made for wood shutter's,only the richest homes could afford Glass panes.
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Is perfectly accurate that an warbow arrow can penetrate such thickness of oak wood.Please take a look what can do an 110#,with an only 850 grains arrow,but ATENTION with an normal arrow head that you use to practice targeting:
And now" La piece de rezistence":3,5mm of steel(the rust is superficial believe me ;D)
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc109/eduardbilanin/PICT2667.jpg)
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc109/eduardbilanin/PICT2671.jpg)
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc109/eduardbilanin/PICT2666.jpg)
Give me some litle time and I`ll show you what can make an 160#bow with an 2500 grains arrows >:D
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i know that my 35 lb recurve stuck like 4 inches into my neighbors trailor :-X after a ricochete, i dont doubt the power of 100 lb plus warbows at all.
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Hello
As first sorry for my English, i need times to remeber the correct grammar. ::)
We make in Austria a simple test with a 90lbs Yew-Warbow.
On a distance of 100m (109.359Yards) we through a 2.5mm(0.0984inch) thick steel plate (50HRC) with a bodkinpointed.
A dry oak had the same hardness as a medium hard steel plate (30 HRC).
best regards
Bernhard
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:D If anyone can shoot an arrow through 4" of clean dense flat sawn oak. I wanna see it. Old myths like this are rather amusing since there were probably some variables like mentioned which actually allowed it to happen..
Rich
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We failed with a thickness over 1.230'' (dense flat sawn beech, 109 yard distance).
I used a oak arrow with a 160grain Bodkinpointed.
When i finished my yew ELB (~130lbs) we started a new test.
Photos would be follow.
Bernhard
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You guys need to be on mythbusters with this.
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What meanīs with mythbusters ?
Just as explanation.
I shoot now for 14 years with ELBīs (105-120lbs).
There are more myths about the english yew-bow than fleas on a dog.
A trough shoot with an 4'' oak flat sawn is a real myth.
But it is a nice topic at the campfire, ;D
Bernhard
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WOW, I just have to mention, that teddy bear is creeping me out.
Interesting discussion, though ;D.
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You guys need to be on mythbusters with this.
Naaa, thoes guys are a bunch of nitwits. There too smart for their own good, no common sence.
Having said that, i do enjoy watching them from time to time. I think they really screwed up the robinhood myth, but whatever.
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Hm........nitwits you said.Why you think somebody who draw heavy bows is an nitwit......I tell you why : because your balls are small >:D
Oh........by the way,here is the men`s corner.Go play with the kids,on rapids. ::)
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eduardbilanin I think Burnt Hill was talking about mythbusters. Joel
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ouch that was a bit touchy. yup i was talking about the mythbusters being nitwits, i think you guys are amazing. i would love to get into making warbows, but time and lack of quality materials is holding me back. i have the utmost respect for all you heavy bow shooters and no disrespect was meant by any means. my apologies if i wasn't clear as to who was the nitwit.
Phil
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In that case I misunderstand and I appologies too.What can I say, sorry again. .
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apologies accepted. no worries ;D
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Guys, this is an interesting topic, I just hit on it today. Don't have any experience with a 180# elb vs a four finger oak door, but I can relay a personal experience with a 60# osage flat bow and an arrow that went through the target, through a bale of hay, into a 5/8" of slighty weathered plywood and protruded out the back 8". Could a wooden shaft survive hitting 3" of solid oak???
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It is a report. As we don't have the shooters, the bows, the arrows, or the door we have no way to prove or disprove the report. Dr. Pope once examined a very powerful Chinese bow that his brother had bought in China and that he had seen in use. Dr. Pope, who regularly used an eighty pound bow and had killed grizzlies with it, was unable to draw the Chinese bow to far less than th 30" arrow that accompanied the bow and stated that"no white man could draw it'. It seems to have been of the strength of today's warbows. You can't prove a negative.
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I doubt it was 4 inches.. 4 fingers may only measure out to be 3inches..small hands
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Not even small hands...I'd like to see someone with inch wide fingers...I work in a jewelry store, and I've seen some guys with massive sausage fingers, but rarely if ever were they approaching 1" wide.
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Just from my experience, it is very well possible. I played around with arrow penetration on wood last year and my results, all though not very impressive, proved quite a bit.
With 70#@32" longbow and 90 gram war arrow, I was able to shoot through a heavy plywood shield of 17 mm thick made from hardwood comparable to birch. The point is 7.8 cm long and 7 cm stuck through other side.
I tried same set up with pine board of 2 cm thick and it split the board. All this from maybe 5-7 meters away, not sure how far the real shot was... I think with bow such as 180# this is definitely possible....but im guessing 6 cm of quarter sawn oak is more like it, my own fingers measure 6 cm if done at the tips..... ::)
Alex
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All sorts of wonderful stories exist. Hard to know what is true. I'm sure most of them are, but some embellishment must be expected.
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Yes, it is hard to know what is true. It is hard to believe that an archer can consistently hit aspirins thrown in the air, but there are those that can. Not many years ago the Society of Archery Antiquaries experts didn't believe that mediaeval archers could shoot with 150 pound bows, but they clearly did. I prefer to reserve my judgement on these claims.
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I doubt it was 4 inches.. 4 fingers may only measure out to be 3inches..small hands
The story is a palms width. not fingers. At the widest point my hand is 4". That is why I wont to use 4" in my test. But it will take time for me to make a bow that can acomplish this. Joel
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Unless someone wants to make and donate a bow for me to use. Joel
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It was this very tale that brought me to an interest in heavy medieval bows.
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/dragonshot-1.jpg)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/dragonshot-2.jpg)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/evilbow-3.jpg)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/thimosabv/evilshot-2.jpg)
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ThimoS whats size bow and thickness of wood you shot through? Those were cool pics. Joel
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Nicely done Thimo ;D
Steve
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Thanks.
Well when I did the test I used a 105# flatbow out of elm with knots on the back, because I was under the impression then that the Welsh had something of that sort. Now I believe it to be a shorter version of the yew warbow. Elm can take it.
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;D ;D ;D ;D
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I gotz lotz of good stuff to show on warbow penetration. But is it really wanted here???
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I say yes Thimo, Why not? I have seen lots of your tests on PP and think they are fantastic.
SJM
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I gotz lotz of good stuff to show on warbow penetration. But is it really wanted here???
Hi Thimo,
Good to see you again!
Of course we want to see it!
Cheers
Nick
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thats an impressive shot man, good to see you over here too!
yup i deffinately think you could post your penetration tests...
Phil
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I'll see what I can do.
Thanks all.
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I think this discussion is worth revisiting, lots more people seem to be taking an interest in warbows. One thing i didn't notice being considered was the climate in thst region . Constant dampness and rain would cause serious rot, plus life then was filty. Who knows what parasites might have been living under a tarred oak surface. In addition to this, wood may have been weather proofed but if its a gate door then chances are its been through some horror before which may have weakened it.
It could be that that particular door was really rotten at a place where two pieces of wood were joined.. However in this day and age i doubt that any bodkin on an arrow of any mass off a bow of very high calibre could have leverage over the hundreds of tiny oak tree fibers such that it could pentrate it. Really wish someone could build a big heavy door to try it on, i dont think stacks of homedepot red oak will do it justice =P
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As we all pause to reconsider this thread, I pose another little tidbit to cogitate in your brains: to wit, WTF were trained archers doing shooting at a closed and barred door? What bleeping purpose did that serve, other than to waste ammo?
Unless someone can produce said door, I am going to move over to the skeptics camp and wassail in mazers of mead all whilst composing epithets for French chevaliers.
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I do find it a little hard to believe, granted mine only top out in the low 90's#.
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Watch this if you your interested in the originall question: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5qNwZM-4qo
No way will any arrow be going through 4 inch oak total BS
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.....WTF were trained archers doing shooting at a closed and barred door? What bleeping purpose did that serve, other than to waste ammo?
Safer to knock on a door with a few arrows, especially if there's any possibility of someone waiting with a vat of boiling oil on the battlements overhead......or maybe someone momentarily stuck their head round the door and blew a resounding raspberry at the attackers :P
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The story was that the guys were fleeing back to the castle and got through the door and slammed it as the Welsh guys fired the last round of arrows. They weren't just shooting at a closed door.
I'm pretty sure a similar scene was depicted in "Ivanhoe".