Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Johnny K on April 29, 2015, 11:46:19 pm
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Hi everyone,
I am about to begin work on my first stave bow. I purchased an 80" long hickory stave... what should I do next? Basically, I need advice on the following points:
What kind of bow should I make?
The stave is plenty big enough for a heavy English longbow, I could do that, but would probably prefer some kind of "faster" flat-bow, or a lighter longbow with a little reflex and flipped tips... or would that be a waste of a large stave?
Is there something about hickory I should know before I begin?
As in: can I make a heavy draw weight bow out of it, should it have a round or flat belly, does it respond well to steam bending?
Should I try to get more than one bow out of the stave?
There is about an inch of sapwood on the stave (see picture), is it ok/good/bad if the limbs are basically all sapwood?
Would appreciate any help/advice anyone could offer me!
Thanks,
John
P.S. I can post more pictures and make a sort of build-along (probably more of a help-along ;) )... Good idea?
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I suggest getting a copy of the Traditional Bowyers Bible vol. 1. Will answer all Your questions and then some. Have fun and enjoy - Bob.
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Leave the sapwood as is. That piece will make one bow. Id make it 68" long, 2" wide for half the working limbs length then straight taper to 1/2" wide tips. That will handle up to a 29" draw and at least 70#.
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Looks like a nice stave.
What is your draw length and what draw weight do you want.
Jawge
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Hey Guys,
Thanks for responding!
I suggest getting a copy of the Traditional Bowyers Bible vol. 1. Will answer all Your questions and then some. Have fun and enjoy - Bob.
Thanks for the suggestion, I guess I should get that one. The library probably even has it, come to think of it...
Leave the sapwood as is. That piece will make one bow. Id make it 68" long, 2" wide for half the working limbs length then straight taper to 1/2" wide tips. That will handle up to a 29" draw and at least 70#.
Glad to hear I can leave the sapwood, would have been a job thinning that down... :D Thanks for the shape-n-size tip too! I will probably go with a 72" length, cause I'm chicken, plus I can reuse my old bowstring... That should be able to handle 75# @ 30", right?
Looks like a nice stave.
What is your draw length and what draw weight do you want.
Jawge
I draw somewhere between 29"-30". Draw weight, I would love something in the range of 70-80#, but am terrified of chrysals (Did you see my last bow, that failed, the tri-lam)... Can hickory handle the compression forces of so heavy a bow, or am I asking for trouble?
Thanks again,
John
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You'll want every bit of length and width you can get for the numbers you want.
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A tiny step forward: I have the bark removed... I marked on the side-profile picture where in the stave I think I should make the bow, is that a good idea?
On the second picture, you can see a little grain swerve near the top. Do I have to follow that swerve, or can I basically ignore it when I rough out the bow shape?
Sorry if these are stupid questions... I'll learn, I promise!
Thanks,
John
BTW, I have decided to lower my desired draw weight considerably, to increase my chances of finally making a bow to last... I intend to try for around 60# @ 29". With a 72" length, I think that should be easy to achieve...
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Hickory doesn't like the humidity, but looks like you live in a place where hickory will do well. Good luck!
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Johnny,
You must be a big fella, I'm 6' and have a 26" draw using primitive bows. First off if there was a wood that would take violations Hickory is at the top. The last 6" usually don't bend depending on design but it would sure be a looker if you followed the grain...It took me a long time to get rid of the perfect cookie cutter mentality. I find perfection in following the grain now, it's much safer and interesting. Good luck and take your time. Chamookman gave you some good advice and a good read on TBB 1...I made my first bow from Hickory using the TBB 1 years ago. Hickory is some tough stuff...
DON
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Thanks Parnell! Yea, humidity shouldn't be an issue up here in Alberta...
Thanks for taking the time to reply and answer my question Don.
I'm trying to build a sort of long flat-bow, or flat long-bow. I guess the tips will bend, but not very much, and hearing what you say about Hickory regarding grain violations, I think I will go with the "cookie cutter mentality"... this once... after all it is my first stave bow, and the idea of having crooked tips is somehow worrying...
I guess the grain of any bow starts to run out on both sides when you taper toward the tips... basically, the only difference is that most of the grain will run out of one side in my bow...
About my draw length, I'm actually just shy of 6'... I used the arm-span divided by 2.5 method for determining draw length. It put me at just over 29". I guess that method may not be ideal as far as primitive bows go though, but I have yet to put 1000 arrows through all wood bows... Maybe the problem is with my shooting form/style. Anyway, will see about that when the bow is done, and I finally get some practice... :)
Thanks again,
John
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Johnny, moisture content is critical with hickory to get good performance from your bow. It should be between 6% and 8%, so make sure your stave is well seasoned. A moisture meter is good but I like to cut a small slice of wood and do an oven dry test for the most accurate MC. If you have a grain scale and a microwave you can do the test easily.
When you rough out the bow profile, you'll have some pieces of wood that will be a good cross section to test. If it's not dry enough, put the stave in the driest part of your house or a hot box for further seasoning.
And yes, Vol 1 of the Bowyer's Bible will be a huge help. Good luck and have fun.
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Hi Johnny,
I am no expert. I built one bow long ago and it started lifting splinters along the edges on the back because I did not follow the grain. It was elm and it took a while and did not start until I let someone else with a longer draw length shoot it. I mention this because in your 1st pics where you can see the grain it looks like one side is perfectly straight and the other side has severe grain running out the stave. It could run back in on down the stave and be fine but I just thought I would mention it.
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You really need to be sure of your draw length at least eventually, Johnny.
I built an osage bow for a friend with a 33 inch draw and I made the 71
or 72 inches nock to nock.
Somewhere around 72" makes sense and for your next you can make it less once you determine your draw length.
Have you shot an 80# bow before?
Jawge
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Hickory is sensitive to humidity. Keep itin AC during the summer.
Hickory is the toughest bow wood I have every worked. It is practically bullet proof. The closest thing to it is white oak. IMVHO.
Yes, made lots of osage bows, LOL. :)
More on my site.
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/index.html
Jawge
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Thanks for the replies everybody!
Drewster: Thanks for the advice on moisture content. Will look into measuring it. I am pretty sure it is correct as I bought the stave from the biggest hardwood supplier in Edmonton, who ordered it from somewhere. I know he supplies bowyers in the area, so I suspect the stuff he's got is fully seasoned... but you can never be too careful... Oh, and I have already ordered TBB volume 1 from the library!
Chief RID: Thanks for replying and for the concern. The grain appears to me to be running straight for most of the length of the stave, and then undergoes a little "snake" near one tip. At first I thought I would ignore that, but I am starting to think that if I can get a sort of "symmetrically crooked" tip, I may as well try to have less run off... I guess we'll see...
Jawge: Thanks for responding! I'm glad to hear that hickory is "bullet-proof"... although that also means that if this bow breaks, I am an idiot... >:( About the 80#: My last bow, (that trilam pyramid that failed, you may have seen the thread), has a draw weight of 75#... I found my arms getting tired after about twenty arrows or so, but was still not happy with arrow speed. However, at long last, I have decided that maybe draw weight does not translate into arrow speed very directly... So I will make this bow lighter after all, and see if a flatter design and perhaps a little reflex will improve performance... I was trying for such high draw weights mainly because I was tired of watching the arrows sail majestically for 60 yards, me looking on and wondering where on the target this one would decide to land... :D
I really appreciate all this great info and advice, Thanks a lot!
John
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Some progress!
I finally got my draw-knife and started roughing out. At first I had planned to ignore the grain and just make the bow straight. Then, I got a little more courage and adjusted my layout to accommodate the snake in one end... and while I was working on the other, my draw-knife slid along the grain, and I thought, "Oh, well, may as well follow the grain here too..." So, both tips of the bow are snaky, which I think is pretty awesome.
The pencil line on the first picture marks 1/2" from the back... any rule of thumb for how thick it should be for a 60# bow?
The width is 2" for half the working limb, then a straight taper to 1/2" at the nocks (I went with your suggestion, PEARL DRUMS, thanks for that tip, I think it looks great!).
Another question: What tools should I use to get it closer to final thickness?
My draw-knife sometimes lifts a splinter which results in a groove in the belly... kind of worried it might go to deep and ruin everything all of a sudden. Am I using it wrong or should I use some other tool? On my last bow I used an improvised table sander for most of the shaping, would that be a good idea here too?
Thanks,
John
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Good deal! at 72 you probably want to leave it fairly thick, I remember guys saying around 3/4 and that has worked for me with most woods, I use a ferriers rasp to come down to my lines each edge at an angle then rasp off the remaining ridge left in the middle of the belly. Half round rasp works good for the radius in the fades. Might wait for others to chime in on the thickness, is it a pyramid style?
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Use a card scraper or hold your drawknife at a 90 degree angle and take off nice curls or a rasp
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Hickory is my preferred medium. It makes a great bow. You are off to a good start. Take your time. Don't be afraid to put it down for a bit. Most of my bow failures early on were the result of getting impatient and not stepping back to examine my work closely.
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Johnny,
I like what you done, following the grain on those tips...That's going to be / is a looker bud ;) Awesome start man! I'll keep watching this build...
Don
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Peacebow_Coos,
Thanks for responding! It's not a pyramid bow, the limbs are a full 2" wide for half their length, and then taper "pyramidally" to half inch tips, so I think 3/4" might be a tad too thick. I have it down to about 5/8" now, and it still doesn't feel ready to bend... Anyway, we'll see I guess.
alwayslookin,
Thanks, I'll try that.
chef-d405,
Thanks for the tip. Yup, I try to take a break now and then... Wouldn't want to ruin anything out of impatience...
burchett.donald,
Thanks! It feels really good to know you have an experienced bowyer "looking over your shoulder"! And, btw, it was your first comment that encouraged me to try following the grain, thanks for that! I'm glad I did.
Will post some pics when I make progress,
John
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Any more suggestions on thickness anybody? Otherwise I may end up removing LOTS of wood with a scraper, afraid at any moment to go to deep... :D
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Just kee flexing it, get it bending, put on a long string and get it being more. Brace it low and get it bending more. Brace it higher till u get to brace height and get it bending the rest of the way. That easy ;) go slow
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step AWAY from the drawknife! a rasp is your best tool now. go slow. The next 1/8 inch of wood removal will take a long time.
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Blaflair2,
Thanks for the comment. yea sounds real easy. ;D I guess my real problem is patience then...
aaron, Thanks for the tip. I've stopped using my draw-knife, and am learning to use a rasp. Taking a while, but I've almost arrived at a floor tiller. Looking pretty good so far.
Will post some more pictures when I get it bending a little more,
John
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Hi everyone,
It is about two years since my last post here... but I never dumped the bow, just got real busy with work, school, University etc. I kept it sitting in the corner, and yesterday finally picked it up again.
I made considerable progress yesterday and today, here are some pictures. I have pulled the bow to full draw, am pretty close to desired weight.
-How's the rough tiller? Maybe get the top 1/4 of the upper limb bending a bit more?
-About the arrow shelf... dare I go deeper?
-The upper parts of the limbs have a bit of deflex (natural shape of the stave)... Leave it be or try to shape/reflex?
As always, any tips/criticism welcome!
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Couple more pics...
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Nice. I would leave the shelf alone.. don't wanna risk it. Looks deep enough already.
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The tiller looks okay, but maybe a little whippy? I think I would have left the last 5-6" of the outer limbs a little stiffer, but maybe a few scrapes of the inners could take a little stress off the outers? Just my thoughts. :)
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Thanks for the feedback, I will leave the shelf be... About the tiller, yea, I think part of the reason it looks whippy is that both tips have some deflex from the natural shape of the stave...
I have sanded out my rasp marks, went over the belly twice with 80 grit, and have carefully sanded away any cambium that remained on the back with 180 grit.
One of the pictures I'm attaching is a side-profile. You can see a slight bit of limb twist near the tips (possibly a tillering mistake), and the aforementioned deflex. Is there an easy/safe/beginner way to get rid of the deflex? I have never used heat or steam on a bow, should I risk it or just leave it as is and proceed to stain and seal the bow?
Oh, and should I round the belly at all? It is currently pretty flat, but I can afford to lose a few pounds if it would improve performance/arrow speed.
Thanks in advance for any comments!
Edit: I guess the limb twist could not possibly be a tillering mistake if it's visible on the unstrung bow, lol.
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I would say all in all it is looking pretty darned good. Reflexing the tips would help performance some and increase the early draw weight. But the deflex would make the bow a little sweeter shooting. Is the bow still 72"? If it is it should not stack at a 29" draw. So I would say it is your call.
Personally I have not done any heat bending of hickory so I can not give any advice on that aspect. I would also say that this bow should last for a lot of shooting and be a source of pride for a long time.
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So far so good. Nicely done.
At what draw length is the bow?
Jawge
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I would heat treat the belly of tips and reflex it or recurve it a little before I proceed.
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Thanks for the comments!
Yes, the bow is still 72" ntn.
Draw weight : 54# @ 28"
It is coming in a tad light after my last sanding, I guess I took off more than I meant to... was aiming for 60# or more.
I have a feeling that I should put in a couple of inches of reflex, particularly at the outer portion of the limbs - hopefully add a bit of weight and speed. If anyone has a favorite method for shaping Hickory please let me know, I haven't done anything of the sort myself!
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If it ain't broke don't fix it.
Enjoy your first bow. IMHO.
Jawge
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Thanks Jawge, that's exactly the advice I needed to hear, and I will take it.
Wouldn't do to risk destroying the bow when it's perfectly fine as is, especially as it's my first real success and I should get out there and practice... plenty of time to shoot for the perfect reflex on the next one:)
I have already made a string for the bow, went with 16 strands of B-50... Probably an overkill now that the draw weight has gone down, but oh well, I may decide to swap it out for a fast-flight string later anyway... Shoots pretty awesome, have put a couple dozen arrows through it already.
Next step - finish the bow.
After some more and finer sanding, I have a nice dark "expresso" Varathane stain that I will apply, followed by a number of coats of a water based clear coat (I have some left over Varathane "NanoDefense" clear floor finish with aluminum oxide, it's supposed to be very hard and resistant to scratches)...