Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: simson on April 01, 2015, 03:37:38 am
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Well, was a while since I was here, got some health problems.
I've got a nice bl stave from my good friend Marc to make him a short recurve. The stave is about 1½” thick and 1¼” wide, clean free of knots and with a nice relative even reflex. Some sap layers are on and has a really nice color. Length is 66”
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030660_zpsgz7leytc.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030661_zpslz7aabpr.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030663_zpsyf1icacz.jpg)
As Marc is now 78 years old he wants a bow 30-40#. This made me think over not to waste that good wood. That stave has two bows in it. I split it from the middle outwards to the tips. Everything went o.k. , I just lost one or two rings for the split.
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030664_zpssln5zzew.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030665_zpsu0hhsb1t.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030666_zps2nlwltk4.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030667_zpsfpbnpndd.jpg)
Next step chasing ring on the belly split and working down the back split to the fat ring. I will leave the sap on because the nice look.
8(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030670_zpsjqogcwft.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030673_zpsgrz2pvic.jpg)
Now look what I've got! The back split is upwards the belly split downwards.
Why the hell has the back split more reflex than the belly split? Because of the sap? Is sap more tension strong than heart wood? I've read the opposite. I haven't worked much with BL so far, can anyone explain? BL profs please chime in, have you ever noticed something like this?
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030725_zpsezxhl62g.jpg)
Here are two pics of the cleaned staves
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030727_zpsrjtmie6y.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030728_zpssiy3vrra.jpg)
And here already the back split with evened out reflex (heatgun), and the belly split cut to 52” and steamed in recurves. I will try to make a Mohegan recurve for Marc and a Algonkin bow from the back split. (Source will be 'Encyclopedia of american native bows, arrows and quivers' from Hamm / Allely).
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030732_zpszyy2d3yc.jpg)
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Wood can do funny things eh when ya relieve them from the different stresses within a tree. I don't know for certainty but my guess is that as the tree got bigger it had to hold more tension and weight hence why the top split pulled in more reflex. As a tree grows the stresses upon it change,and it can be different from a belly split to a top split etc etc...and tension and compression sides as well etc...who knows maybe it was growing more straight up and as it got bigger and had more weight a wind event or something caused it to lean even more causing the tension side to become stronger than what was grown before it. Now that outer wood is having to hold more than what was before it when it was younger.
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Is it possible that the sapwood shrinks more when it dries pulling the outside piece into reflex? Don't know if that would necessarily mean that it's tension strong. I have't worked BL yet but I've got a couple drying.
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more guts than me..I wouldn't of split it in two...1 1/4 is mighty thin width for a BL bow... its not osage and is gonna take some set at that width ..but I guess at 30 to 40 lbs it should hold well..good luck..gut
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more guts than gutpile! That about sums up that split ;)
I like blackhawk's assessment. Makes sense to me.
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The other Marc, right?
;D
more guts than me..I wouldn't of split it in two...1 1/4 is mighty thin width for a BL bow... its not osage and is gonna take some set at that width ..but I guess at 30 to 40 lbs it should hold well..good luck..gut
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,49241.msg672094.html#msg672094 (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,49241.msg672094.html#msg672094)
;)
Wood can do funny things eh when ya relieve them from the different stresses within a tree. I don't know for certainty but my guess is that as the tree got bigger it had to hold more tension and weight hence why the top split pulled in more reflex. As a tree grows the stresses upon it change,and it can be different from a belly split to a top split etc etc...and tension and compression sides as well etc...who knows maybe it was growing more straight up and as it got bigger and had more weight a wind event or something caused it to lean even more causing the tension side to become stronger than what was grown before it. Now that outer wood is having to hold more than what was before it when it was younger.
If I split a straight stave of locust and want to keep it that way I remove the sapwood immediately. I noticed that the sapwood shrinks more when I removed the sapwood from a couple staves and left it on others from the same section of straight trunk. The staves without sapwood pulled into maybe an inch of reflex but the staves with sapwood took ridiculous reflex ranging from three to five inches. This is due to the sapwoods harsher shrinkage, not tension strength.
All that being said it looks like you've chased down to one of the deeper sap rings, correct? That's very good as the outermost sapwood is not as tension strong as the heartwood and will slow the bow down as well as making it less resistant to rot.
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If sapwood shrinks faster than the rest of the wood it'll check. And I'm assuming this piece is near proper mc and ready to bend. If that's the case then theres not enough moisture loss to cause reflex due to moisture loss. And this happened immediately I assume as well, and not over a few days or more losing moisture.
I can count on quite a few occasions when I've removed belly wood or a belly split from proper mc ready to bend wood to see it reflex almost instantly. And some of them was wood 15-30+ years old seasoned. There's proven stresses in trees that can be released in ways that can cause it to move,and has nothing to do with moisture loss issues.
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If sapwood shrinks faster than the rest of the wood it'll check. And I'm assuming this piece is near proper mc and ready to bend. If that's the case then theres not enough moisture loss to cause reflex due to moisture loss. And this happened immediately I assume as well, and not over a few days or more losing moisture.
I can count on quite a few occasions when I've removed belly wood or a belly split from proper mc ready to bend wood to see it reflex almost instantly. And some of them was wood 15-30+ years old seasoned. There's proven stresses in trees that can be released in ways that can cause it to move,and has nothing to do with moisture loss issues.
I'm not saying that doesn't happen, a belly split from just last week kept its shape while the rest of the stave with the sapwood removed took additional reflex. However when I split the belly from a stave with sapwood I expect the back half to take significantly more reflex than if the sapwood were removed. Locust sapwood does check significantly easier than locust hardwood in my experience; in western Washington I expect bare sapwood to check into the first two or so rings of heartwood but leave chased rings unsealed no problem. When I get a clean split of sapwood off the back of a locust stave it pulls into more of a C shape than a parentheses.
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Thanks all for input! Some interesting statements.
Wood can do funny things eh when ya relieve them from the different stresses within a tree. I don't know for certainty but my guess is that as the tree got bigger it had to hold more tension and weight hence why the top split pulled in more reflex. As a tree grows the stresses upon it change,and it can be different from a belly split to a top split etc etc...and tension and compression sides as well etc...who knows maybe it was growing more straight up and as it got bigger and had more weight a wind event or something caused it to lean even more causing the tension side to become stronger than what was grown before it. Now that outer wood is having to hold more than what was before it when it was younger.
That makes definitely sense, Chris. But if true, all back/belly splits should have that different reflex. I didn't notice that in the past, but will watch in future if so.
more guts than me..I wouldn't of split it in two...1 1/4 is mighty thin width for a BL bow... its not osage and is gonna take some set at that width ..but I guess at 30 to 40 lbs it should hold well..good luck..gut
I'm already working on both, it's fine so far. Have some problems with string alignment and did a lot of heat corrections. Mohegan recurve nearly finished and algonkin comes along quite nice. Have more some enough wood.
If sapwood shrinks faster than the rest of the wood it'll check. And I'm assuming this piece is near proper mc and ready to bend. If that's the case then theres not enough moisture loss to cause reflex due to moisture loss. And this happened immediately I assume as well, and not over a few days or more losing moisture.
I can count on quite a few occasions when I've removed belly wood or a belly split from proper mc ready to bend wood to see it reflex almost instantly. And some of them was wood 15-30+ years old seasoned. There's proven stresses in trees that can be released in ways that can cause it to move,and has nothing to do with moisture loss issues.
I'm not saying that doesn't happen, a belly split from just last week kept its shape while the rest of the stave with the sapwood removed took additional reflex. However when I split the belly from a stave with sapwood I expect the back half to take significantly more reflex than if the sapwood were removed. Locust sapwood does check significantly easier than locust hardwood in my experience; in western Washington I expect bare sapwood to check into the first two or so rings of heartwood but leave chased rings unsealed no problem. When I get a clean split of sapwood off the back of a locust stave it pulls into more of a C shape than a parentheses.
Is that a proofed thing that BL sap is not as tension strong as heart wood? In my case is doesn't seem so, have nearly no set so far on the long bow.
BTW. the stave is very well seasoned - no mc problems.
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I just finished a black locust with hardwood and sapwood for my pellet-bow tests (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,50771.0.html). First time i try BL sapwood.
The rings where pretty fats so I ended with half sapwood ring ( paper backed) and approx one and a half heartwood ring.
Despite a great difference in the feeling of the two woods the bow shoots really well.
Not less effective than others all heartwood BL bows.
I think I'll use again BL sapwood in my bows
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Is that a proofed thing that BL sap is not as tension strong as heart wood? In my case is doesn't seem so, have nearly no set so far on the long bow.
It's more prone to tension failure. I've had pristine sapwood backs fail for no apparent reason (not oven rot which is a risk with locust sapwood, especially from dying trees) where I've overlooked cut pin knots in finished bows. Locust sapwood is considerably less tolerant to climate change, never completely drying out here in my swampy neighborhood. Locust sapwood can deteriorate under the finish and fail due to rot if tension isn't too much, leading to a delamination and possibly a good smack in the face. After chasing rings on some ~120 locust staves I have not once encountered locust sapwood anywhere near as dense and hard as the heartwood. I can't confirm a consistent difference in set between sap/heartwood backed locust, but a heartwood molle shoots significantly faster than a similar sapwood backed molle.
I have made both and had them work for a long time. My first had sapwood and failed after a year of being severely overdrawn (50" ntn, 9" stiff grip, drawn to 26" most of the time but occasionally closer to 28") and had only taken four inches of set through it all. It can work, but so can douglas fir or ponderosa pine.
Edit: Oh, and heavy sapwood backed locust needs overlays or a B50 string *spits on ground* where I've made bows up to 55# with no need for overlays. The sapwood is too soft.
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Here is Marc's mohegan
it's about 40#, measurements follows exact Hamm/Allely encyclopedia
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030860_zpsih1bp5cp.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030848_zpsxkmqgpl9.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030849_zpshejudokv.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030859_zpsnc18zqvw.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030855_zpsrldoandr.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030857_zps6ewslliu.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030854_zps1l0exuht.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030853_zpspicqfzbc.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030856_zpskk84wo8t.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030869_zps7phhivu4.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030863_zpsccmqszzz.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030867_zpsjxrn1dzg.jpg)
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Excellent little bow right there sir !!!!! Very graceful to my eye. Curious as to your thoughts on performance? My experience with these types of bows is that they are pretty efficient. Anyway, very nicely done Simon 8)
rich
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I just made a new tip-flipper jig but the few I've made similar to that have been great performers and felt great in the hand. I need to do one for myself.
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Great curves and I'm sure the new owner I'd happy!!! What did you use to make those tips that nice red color?
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I always look forward to seeing what you come up with next Simon. Nicely done.
Interesting discussion on the sapwood too.
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Excellent little bow right there sir !!!!! Very graceful to my eye. Curious as to your thoughts on performance? My experience with these types of bows is that they are pretty efficient. Anyway, very nicely done Simon 8)
rich
Rich, same experience here! The following Algonkin bow shoots nice and has more weight, but if I had to choose a hunting weapon I would know which one. Thanks for your thoughts.
Great curves and I'm sure the new owner I'd happy!!! What did you use to make those tips that nice red color?
I always use earth pigments, in this case red ocre. Meanwhile I have a nice collection of different pigments. And it's easy to apply: thinned hide glue + pigment + little soda powder makes a creamy mixture for really easy working.
Thanks all others!
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Here is my attempt on an Algonkian bow, follows again the measurements in the encyclopedia. Haven't weighed it, but is about 50#. I expected shocky, but isn't. The unbraced profile has good reflex, got nearly no set. I like the look of the sap and the strips in it.
Instead of incised (original) on the back below the nocks I did a painting. I had the knife already in the hands - but really couldn't do on the back.
The incised turtle marks the handle position.
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030896_zpso7szhcfd.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030879_zpsihukfcse.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030880_zpsulhuse0x.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030885_zpst9q643fn.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030897_zps0n7v13ea.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030894_zpsvqlpjga9.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030881_zpsqpsl52qv.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030889_zps7advlyed.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030890_zpsqwfzdqmt.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030882_zpssulfpbrx.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030883_zps2dqqkdk9.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1503%20black%20locust%20stave%20from%20Marc/P1030888_zpsh8bdntgk.jpg)
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I like that contrasting sap wood as well. Great job on the artwork...one of these days I wanna try my hand at carving.
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both bows are beauties and looks perfect to me, like always.
Hans
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I was impressed with the way you handled splitting that stave to get two bows out of it, now I'm even more impressed with the finished bows Simon. Very nice execution while also staying true to the measurements and designs on both bows, gotta love those results. :)
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great as always, I love your replicas they are so precise in detail and worksmanship!
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You do amazing work Mr. Simon!
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Absolutely fantastic! :)
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Ho-Hum.....just your usual perfect reproduction ::) very well done Simon. You sir, never cease to amaze with your talent.
rich
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very very cool I need to try reproductions
chuck
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Great job on those two bows Simon. Did you hear treat (temper) either of them. Always look forward to seeing what you're working on.
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Beautiful work as always, Simon.
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Both bows are excellent. Nice work as usual!
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Flawless bows as usual. Nice work simson
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My favorite of the two is the Mohegan, and it looks like it flat belongs in your friends hands
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Way cool Simon.
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Great job on those two bows Simon. Did you hear treat (temper) either of them. Always look forward to seeing what you're working on.
No heat treating on these bows, Matt. Just an awful lot of side corrections, especially on the Algonkin. I assume because there is nearly no side taper, that thing always wanted to bend sideway with one of the tips. But I could manage it after a lot of work with the heatgun.
My favorite of the two is the Mohegan, and it looks like it flat belongs in your friends hands
My fav too, Bub. And yes I think he is quite pleased. :)
Thank you all for comments!
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Excellent replicas Simon.
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Both are super cool, but really like the first one. I hope when I'm your buddy's age I'm half as cool as he appears. My hat is off to you both.
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bows came out sweet... I bet the Algonkin produces some noticeable hand shock with those huge tips and bendy handle....good job on the replicas...gut
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Sorry to hear about the health issues, but glad to see you are feeling better and back to making knock-out bows. I was just looking closely at both of those bows in the encyclopedia, while looking for some incised design inspiration. So cool to see your replicas of them in living color here. That beveled edge curvy Mohegan is a real eye catcher. I love seeing that full draw and unbraced profile, says a lot about that bow. Lucky guy to get that bow. Sorry to hear you chickened out on carving up the back of that Algonkin ;) I am always amazed to see the several bows in the encyclopedia that have the backs cut up with design work. I couldn't do it.
These are your 60th and 61st bows you have made? When did you start?
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Turned out nice simon....man I need to make a BL bow...its been too long,n I like the wood
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Those are sweet! I would never had dared to split this stave. Nice to see you were rewarded. When you cut wood from the belly side of a stave it often reflexes more. Splitting the belly off is the same thing.
I have repeatedly used BL sap with good results, those were young trees however. I guess if it dries soundly, there's no reason not to use it.
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Both are super cool, but really like the first one. I hope when I'm your buddy's age I'm half as cool as he appears. My hat is off to you both.
Yeah I also like the first one better. Marc was last weekend with his bow and lots of other stuff at an outdoor meeting, he travels with his tipi since I know him. he has lot of indian technic and skills as quillworking, carving, silver jewelry and many others. I'm glad he's a friend of mine.
bows came out sweet... I bet the Algonkin produces some noticeable hand shock with those huge tips and bendy handle....good job on the replicas...gut
No gut, I have expected the same. The tips are not thick - so it's light weight. I wanted to follow as near as possible to the original.
Sorry to hear about the health issues, but glad to see you are feeling better and back to making knock-out bows. I was just looking closely at both of those bows in the encyclopedia, while looking for some incised design inspiration. So cool to see your replicas of them in living color here. That beveled edge curvy Mohegan is a real eye catcher. I love seeing that full draw and unbraced profile, says a lot about that bow. Lucky guy to get that bow. Sorry to hear you chickened out on carving up the back of that Algonkin ;) I am always amazed to see the several bows in the encyclopedia that have the backs cut up with design work. I couldn't do it.
These are your 60th and 61st bows you have made? When did you start?
Carson, the Mohegan was tillered out with a recangular crossection near to f/d. Then I did the beveled edges and lost about 5 or 6 pounds, but I had enough to play with.
Yes I'm a coward - not bravely enoughto carve on a bow's back :P
And yes this is bow 60 and 61 posted here. I have done some hundreds meanwhile. And of course I started with No. 1 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Here is the first one if anyone want to look: http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,34732.0.html
Those are sweet! I would never had dared to split this stave. Nice to see you were rewarded. When you cut wood from the belly side of a stave it often reflexes more. Splitting the belly off is the same thing.
I have repeatedly used BL sap with good results, those were young trees however. I guess if it dries soundly, there's no reason not to use it.
Yeah same thoughts here. Btw. looking at the Algonkin pics again - no noticable set, comparing the fresh split with the unbraced pic. That sap is really good ...
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I had to remark on your obvious cowardice after you popped that BL stave in two with a Chisel. ;D
I remember that first bow of yours. One of those bows you just really want to shoot when you see the photos of it. :)
I really enjoy seeing your work.