Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: clewis on March 31, 2015, 11:29:12 am

Title: Stave ID
Post by: clewis on March 31, 2015, 11:29:12 am
Hi all,

I just wanted to confirm that this stave is in fact hickory. The stave was cut a few weeks ago and sawn into a wedge. Anyway I had just wondered if it is hickory or not. Any help appreciated.

Clewis
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: crooketarrow on March 31, 2015, 11:35:13 am
  It looks to be hickory. If it's grayish bark it's hickory. ELM looks like pig nut hickory. But ELMS GREENISH BROWN. All hickorys are aways grayish.
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: clewis on March 31, 2015, 12:04:01 pm
So if I remove the bark and lay out my bow, the bow will mostly be sapwood. The stave is about 3.5 inches wide and 6-7inches deep, I can get several bows out of it is what I'm thinking, though I could be wrong. Thoughts...
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: turmoiler on March 31, 2015, 01:33:44 pm
Black walnut?
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: JeremiahVires on March 31, 2015, 02:22:06 pm
Looks more like Elm in my opinion.  But I deduced this mostly due to the bark texture and such.  I've had many-a Elm staves cut my hands up in my time.
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: Pat B on March 31, 2015, 02:48:34 pm
Do you have any of the branches so we can see the buds.
  If it is 3.5"x7" you should be able to get a good belly split off of it. With most whitewoods you want to use the sapwood, the wood right under the bark.
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: Eric Krewson on March 31, 2015, 06:36:34 pm
That stave has mighty thin sapwood for hickory. All the hickory I have cut was 2/3 sapwood and about 1/3 heart wood.
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: J05H on March 31, 2015, 06:50:18 pm
First thing I thought of was sassafras, but there's not a lot to go on. The lighting makes it hard to see the color. If it were sassafras, it would be surprisingly light. Much lighter than hickory or elm. Keep in mind, I'm by no means an expert.
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: bushboy on March 31, 2015, 06:52:36 pm
Looks more like an ash to me.
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: Drewster on March 31, 2015, 09:25:11 pm
I agree with Eric.  Hickory typically has a MUCH higher percentage of sapwood that what that piece shows.  Not enough information to determine exactly what it is, but I'm fairly confident that is not hickory.
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: TacticalFate on April 01, 2015, 01:43:45 am
Is the bark spongey? Then it's probably elm.
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: mikekeswick on April 01, 2015, 02:57:58 am
You can't really tell from the pictures you've shown.
Can you post a picture of the end grain and maybe a close-up picture of some of the wood once you've cut into it (sand it smooth too).
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: chamookman on April 01, 2015, 03:30:24 am
The Bark made Me think Red Elm. Bob
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: Pappy on April 01, 2015, 05:05:14 am
Not sure, but as you can see from the response, I think at least 6 different opinions, need more to go on, but I will say it is probably bow wood either way. ;) if it is any of the above it's good bow wood. :)
 Pappy
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: turmoiler on April 01, 2015, 05:55:37 am
I still think that it is black walnut: https://www.google.es/search?q=black+walnut+bark&biw=960&bih=542&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=JbcbVfatBYS9UdXigNAJ&sqi=2&ved=0CCAQsAQ (https://www.google.es/search?q=black+walnut+bark&biw=960&bih=542&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=JbcbVfatBYS9UdXigNAJ&sqi=2&ved=0CCAQsAQ)

The heartwood/sapwood ratio is also a hint and you can confuse bw with hickory because leaves and nuts are very simmilar.

Just my thoughts.
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: Pappy on April 01, 2015, 06:42:07 am
 ??? I never found Hickory nuts and Walnuts at all the same :) On the walnut around here the heat wood is much darker. :)
   Pappy
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: blackhawk on April 01, 2015, 06:58:47 am
One thing I do know is it aint walnut or sassafras to those who guessed so. And for those who say it ain't hickory because of the sap/heartwood ratio I have seen hickory with that thick of heartwood. Seems a lil light colored for red elm heartwood(but cant rule it out cus of that)? My guess is either an ash or hickory. Either way if your new to this make it 2" wide till mid limb then taper to half inch tips for starting bow dimensions. Then monitor his much set and how thin its getting. If its getting really thin and not taking any set you can narrow it. Also it looks like bow wood to me. Nice,clean,even straight.

Oh...forgot...do u know what hickory smells like? It has a distinctive enough odor to give it away.
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: turmoiler on April 01, 2015, 07:04:29 am
??? I never found Hickory nuts and Walnuts at all the same :) On the walnut around here the heat wood is much darker. :)
   Pappy

Maybe you are right Pappy, but there are several kinds of hickory nuts and some look like bw when they are green with the hull on, even more for unexperienced eyes. About the color maybe the picture is fooling us, the surface of the wood is not smooth and the flash of the cammera can enlighten the wood color.  Maybe a picture of the wood after smoothing it can help us.
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: Pappy on April 01, 2015, 08:14:24 am
Yep it is really all a guess when you can't see leaves/ branches or up close where you can feel and smell it. :)
   Pappy
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: clewis on April 01, 2015, 11:12:41 am
Hey thanks for all the responses, Ill post better pictures this afternoon in better light. I'm sure what ever t is it will make a bow regardless.

clewis
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: okie64 on April 01, 2015, 11:02:46 pm
Looks like butternut to me. Just kidding, I just wanted to throw another possible out there ;D Ive never cut any hickory with that much heartwood but it may be a different kind than we have around here. A clear pic of the end grain would make id much easier.
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: simson on April 02, 2015, 07:51:32 am
I haven't access to hick (so no experience with hick bark), but it looks like red elm to me.
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: PatM on April 02, 2015, 09:26:42 am
Bitternut Hickory frequently has that much heartwood when growing in swampy conditions.
 Where are you located?
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: clewis on April 02, 2015, 10:50:32 am
I had cut it north of Kingston on a friends lot, he wasn't sure what it was either. I think its hickory, it doesn't look the elm in his area, definitely not white ash or oak either. I didn't get a chance yesterday to take better pics but I will make time tonight.

Clewis
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: Pat B on April 02, 2015, 11:01:39 am
Elm has thin twigs at the end of the branches. Hickory has thick twigs with large, oval shaped buds.
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: clewis on April 02, 2015, 11:13:19 am
I have Red Elm in my shed, definitely not elm. In all likelihood its probably hickory. Thanks for all the suggestions though everyone.
clewis
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: PatM on April 02, 2015, 11:24:59 am
Kingston could be in Jamaica or Canada amongst other places.  ;)
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: clewis on April 02, 2015, 01:48:24 pm
  8)
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: PatM on April 02, 2015, 01:49:23 pm
Well where?
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: clewis on April 02, 2015, 03:41:07 pm
My apologies, I`m from Ontario, Canada.
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: JohnL on April 06, 2015, 12:29:59 am
     Not sure where this was cut, but looks a bit like "Rowan" / Mountain Ash, as well.  It has a shallowly-furrowed, interlaced bark pattern, like that.  They also have a leaflet arrangement that looks similar to Hickory/Pecan/Blk. Walnut, but with only 5 leaflets.  I've read that bowyers in Europe use their version of the tree for bows.

-Also, I agree that the sapwood looks a bit thin to be Hickory.
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: mikekeswick on April 06, 2015, 02:56:25 am
I look at rowans most everyday and that's not anything like 'our' rowans here in the UK
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: Hrothgar on April 06, 2015, 08:40:35 am
The shallow criss-cross pattern reminds me of Bitternut hickory. There might be other, better hickories for bow-making, but you won't get any better for smoking BBQ.
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: PatM on April 06, 2015, 09:08:15 am
   In the Kingston area  or anywhere along the  St Lawrence you won't find much but Bitternut and Shagbark it seems. I have lived in that area and would definitely say it is  Bitternut based on location.
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: Dakota Kid on April 06, 2015, 12:03:56 pm
I'm just on the other side of the lake from that part of Canada. I cut a few rowan/mountain ash staves this winter. The type found here has a smooth purplish bark I would consider almost shiny. The ones I harvested had more sapwood than heartwood. Also that stave looks like it came from a rather large tree. I've never seen a mountain ash with a trunk diameter of more than a foot or so.

If I had to guess with just those two photo's to go on, I'd say mockernut hickory or ash based mainly on the bark pattern. Factor in the heartwood color, I'd say it's mockernut hickory. Burn some and take a whiff. If you get hungry, it's hickory. If you can return to where the stave was cut, search the ground for hickory nut shells for a final determination. I've made both ash and hickory bows, my ash limbs were thicker compared to a hickory bow of the same weight. The ash bows were lighter as well, even though they had more wood/volume.  Both make fine bows, but it helps to know what dimensions you're aiming for before you start or you might run your cabinet scraper down to a nub. 
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: PatM on April 06, 2015, 12:49:11 pm
Mockernut  only grows way down in the Southwest tip of the province.
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: Dakota Kid on April 06, 2015, 02:58:17 pm
Is the bark on a bitternut similar to mockernut? Essentially the wood is the same, but just curious. I like to get my ID's right.
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: gutpile on April 06, 2015, 03:41:52 pm
not like any hickory Ive ever seen...Im in Ga. though...gut
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: PatM on April 06, 2015, 04:26:47 pm
Is the bark on a bitternut similar to mockernut? Essentially the wood is the same, but just curious. I like to get my ID's right.
Bitternut tends toward being rather smooth or less rough if its bark does start to break apart a bit. I've never quite figured out why it seems capable of having almost Blue Beech like smoothness in larger sizes or it starts breaking up when rather small.
 It is the only Hickory growing where I am right now and it does seem rather variable.
 Hickory also hybridizes  so you have to consider that. Apparently Shagbark and Bitternut cross-breed although I can't say  I've ever seen a tree that looks like a cross.
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: Hrothgar on April 06, 2015, 04:31:15 pm
Dakota, bitternut has a light grey bark, and interlacing or criss-crossing pattern; also, the leaves are the shortest of any of the hickories, and the nut is bitter. The mockernut hickory is a darker grey bark, the nut is sweet, the shell is hard and thick.
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: Hrothgar on April 06, 2015, 08:39:36 pm
PatM-- sorry, I didn't mean to walk on your answer, guess I was typing while you were posting.
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: Drewster on April 06, 2015, 09:50:30 pm
GEEZ, I wish someone could positively ID this stave.......my curiosity is killing me.
Title: Re: Stave ID
Post by: mikekeswick on April 07, 2015, 03:01:17 am
It's hickory.....go make a bow!