Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Around the Campfire => Topic started by: kid bow on March 28, 2015, 08:08:45 pm
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So we watched a video in class about young soldiers and the drinking age. This video sparked an intense debate about whether young soldier 18-20 should be allowed to drink. I wanna know your opinion. I know a good majority are veterans here and some are in. My questions for you is do you think a young soldier who fights for his country should be able to buy and consume alcohol?
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I think a young soldier who fought for his country should buy his own drinks. He should have his drinks bought for him.
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All should just abide by the law as written. I was in the Marines in 67 to 69. Some states allowed it at 18 and some didn't. Just because I was in the service didn't give me the right.
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All should just abide by the law as written. I was in the Marines in 67 to 69. Some states allowed it at 18 and some didn't. Just because I was in the service didn't give me the right.
Thats a good point
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I believe is you are old enough to serve your country you should be old enough to drink and buy alcohol. I believe that you should obey the laws where you are, though.
I also believe if you are old enough you should vote but look at how few do. Voting is what makes and changes laws.
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Well in a hypothetical then I stand by my comment. But in how things are, laws should be obeyed. Even overseas where the drinking age is lower, you still cant without getting in trouble with your command.
Were we to be able to make a difference in this conversation, id submit it be up to the commander based on how good a service member he is. If he isnt an idiot and is squared away, then he could earn a permit to drink on his id card. Is he a ship wreck and not responsible? Nope, denied. Fix yourself.
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You all bring up very interesting points i like it.
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Alcohol dulls the mind
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When I was 19 in 1967 and a soldier at Ft Knox, the company had keg parties, no one was carded. Same for the EM club on base, any solder could drink regardless of age. I am pretty sure any soldier in uniform could drink off base but time makes my memory a little hazy.
While stationed in Germany I never encountered any age restrictions on drinking.
At the time, I was of the opinion that anyone in the service was old enough to drink, my opinion hasn't changed to the present.
I would imagine that most of the old vets on this site feel the same way. I gave up booze 27 years ago when I was 40, nothing against drinking, just decided it wasn't for me.
If laws are in place to prevent an underage soldier from drinking they must be obeyed though.
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As a young man right out of highschool I always wondered why we had a hard time getting adults to buy my friends and me alcohol. Looking back I see how big of an issue this is. I was an idiot. I was nowhere old or mature enough to make those types of decisions. Would I buy alcohol for 18 year olds now? Not a chance. There is a good chance that you will grow up and look back and see that no matter what job you have, 18 is still pretty young for making life altering decisions. In Utah you have t be 19 to buy tobacco, yet can vote, and join the service at 18. Do I agree? No, is it a nanny law? Absolutely. Should it be followed, yes. Just because one is old enough to serve their country does not mean they are old enough to drink. Some aren't mature enough to drink ever. Just the way it goes.
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Are you a vet Jo Jo ?
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In the late 50s I spent a couple of years in the 82nd airborne jumping out of planes for $55 dollars a month. They did not treat me as someone not capable of preforming my duties. I got married at 19 while there and my wife came out to live with me off post. We were dirt poor and a SGT's pay with a Class Q allotment was not much money. I sent my wife home before I was discharged and just before I was released I took a bus to Charolet South Carolina to buy a car. Was I ever surprised to find out I was not old enough to buy a car even when paying cash. To this day it bothers me to think of doing a man's job for his country and not being old enough to by a beer or a car. Its my opinion that age alone does not qualify as a determing factor for being mature enough to drink. I have never been a drinker and wonder now if I am any more capable of drinking now than I was when I was young. Joe
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I have always believed if you are deemed old enough, and mature enough to be given military grade weapons, and told to go fight where our government sends you, and possibly not come back, then you are old and mature enough to drink! If you are responsible enough to hold military grade weapons, you should be responsible enough to hold a beer! I have seen older men, act like idiots, and under age people act far more responsible. I don't think 21 and older has anything to with being responsible, no matter what you are doing. Drink and get stupid, pay the price! But if you are old enough to fight and possibly die for your country, or whatever other reason, our government deems, you should go, then as far as I am concerned, you are old enough to drink!
Wayne
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I think the debate should be about the legal drinking age. Asking whether servicemen should fall under a different set of laws than the rest of us is unacceptable to me. I understand that many servicemen put their lives on the line to fight for me and this country but that doesn't make them better than me. I don't want to sound ungrateful because that isn't it. I'm very grateful. I agree that veterans and servicemen should have drinks and meals paid for them when they come home. I love seeing businesses give discounts to veterans. That's great! Thank a servicemen! But they shouldn't be governed by a different standard. Police, fire, swat, rescue, linemen, miners, factory workers.....all put their lives on the line to make our lives better too. We hold these truths to be self evident that ALL MEN are created EQUAL....
That being said I'm with JoJo. There is a big difference in maturity in an 18 and a 21 yr old. I like the drinking age where it is. When I was 18 I probably would have had a different opinion. But then again I don't drink and never have so it really doesn't affect me either way.
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As far as age goes, I don't think the drinking age should be any higher than whatever the legal age of majority is in your country/state. If you are old enough to vote, you are old enough to buy a drink. If you are old enough for the government to hand you a firearm and tell to kill another person, then you are old enough to buy a drink. If you are old enough to pay taxes then you are old enough to drink.
I don't think the government has any place dictating the habits of adults as long as they are not infringing on the rights of others, and as long as they are not endangering others. If the government has determined that you are an adult at the age of 18, then I don't think they should have the right to dictate your behavior any more (again as long as you are not infringing on the rights of others or putting them in danger).
All that being said, I don't condone breaking the law. I follow laws that I disagree with all the time. There are ways to challenge and even change the laws without breaking them.
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If someone wanted me to go kill for them again and not drink a beer and I was 19 like I was then.
I would tell them to kiss my rosy red caboose.
Today it's all voluntary, so it's a choice for our troops. God bless them.
Zuma
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The big difference is the military has a way of growing young men up fast. An 18 year old after boot camp wont compare to an 18 year old on the streets. Night and day difference there.
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If you non vet guys went through the training I did in 1967 you would understand. Discipline is drummed into your head from day one when I was in, if you acted up the Drill instructor might (would) kick your a$$ big time. This type of controlled environment didn't allow for the dumb stuff people do outside the military when they are drinking.
If you were a real bone head that affected the company's mission, there was a good chance you would get a blanket party held in your honor by your peers. For those who don't know what a blanket party is; The guilty party is approached from the rear, a GI wool blanket is thrown over his head, he is caught by surprise and is pummeled by all the folk that decided he needed an attitude adjustment.
We had one guy in basic who's personal hygiene was abysmal, he didn't even use toilet paper. We got sick of his nasty ways and put a bar of yellow lye soap and a stiff scrub brush we used for the concrete floor on his bunk. We told him if he didn't clean up his act we were going to hold him down in the shower and scrub every inch of his nasty body with the lye soap and the scrub brush.
He instantly became very focused on his cleanliness.
Like I said guys, the military is a different world and can't be compared to the world non military people live in .
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I enjoy the very intellectual responses i get from all of you. You all bring up extremely great points and different veiws . Please chime in with more.
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Yep, I think if a person honors their countrymen by serving in the military said persons should be able to imbibe whatever they choose on their down time. Other countries with lower drinking ages seem to have less alcohol related problems with youth I hear. When I was 18 nothing really stopped me from drinking, just buying it.
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I really think the younger you start doing something, the more responsible you are with it ( within reason ).
18 is an adult and I believe holding back on the freedom to drink only causes problems by making the young adults break the law just to drink if they were so inclined. Of course the counter to that is they should break the law and a willingness to do so shows a lack of responsibility.
I drank at 17. I wasnt supposed to but I did. Dad didnt know and if he did, he didnt say anything. I just drank a beer on the occasion at an adult friends house of mine. I wouldnt drive for hoirs after and never got wasted. I think if we allowed younger folks to drink it would be more normal and less of a party thing. None of that, whooo hoo breakin the law etc... cause it wouldnt be illegal. Kinda a rant but oh well, supper is ready and im gonna drink red wine with chicked tonight. Wrong color but its what I got. Yall are making me thirsty.
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Marks the military does live under a completely different set of laws than civilians do. It's called the uniform code of military justice and it is far stricter than civilian law. If you find that unacceptable, perhaps you could volunteer to live under the same laws as the military in the spirit of equality. Recruiters aren't hard to find. I have always found it ironic that people handed freedom at no cost use that freedom to protest, denigrate, and cast aspersions on the very people that defend those freedoms. If you don't think those men and women are mature enough to drink, perhaps you should walk a mile in their boots. I believe that you would develop a completely different attitude in short order. Josh
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I was just about to say that about UCMJ.
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Or for that matter be a politician making laws regarding military unless you were in.
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Marks the military does live under a completely different set of laws than civilians do. It's called the uniform code of military justice and it is far stricter than civilian law. If you find that unacceptable, perhaps you could volunteer to live under the same laws as the military in the spirit of equality. Recruiters aren't hard to find. I have always found it ironic that people handed freedom at no cost use that freedom to protest, denigrate, and cast aspersions on the very people that defend those freedoms. If you don't think those men and women are mature enough to drink, perhaps you should walk a mile in their boots. I believe that you would develop a completely different attitude in short order. Josh
First off, I could care less if they drink. If the Govt wants to make the drinking age 18 then go for it. I didn't say they aren't mature enough. I just said I'm fine with the current drinking age. I don't drink so I don't care but if its 18 then it should be 18 across the board.
Second, I think you have the wrong idea about my attitude. I got out my thesaurus and I'm a little confused. I didn't do any of the things your words mean. I'm not protesting, denigrating, or casting anything on the people that defend my freedoms. Yes, the military has a more strict code. I get that. That is different. You signed that contract. We are talking about everyday laws not applying to military. That's apples and oranges. Trust me, I'm not a military hater. I fly my flag proud. I'm patriotic. I cry when nobodies looking during the soldier coming home videos on youtube. I believe in the Constitution.
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I was not clear. The charges of protest and denigrating our military members was not aimed specifically at you Mark, but meant more of an indictment toward the those that would have you believe that our service members are less than they are. I do believe that your questions regarding their maturity level and the assumption that they are no better than anyone else is indeed an aspersion upon their character. I caught the part about your patriotism and I'm not questioning that. I think what you're missing is that years alone are no measure of maturity. Life experiences bring on maturity and that is the key to this debate. I can't make you understand the life altering experience the military brings about with mere words. That has to be experienced. What I and others are trying to point out is that an 18 yr old service member cannot be compared as an equal with the average same age civilian. The sum total of each category of 18 yr olds experience is the Apple and orange comparison you referred to. I also disagree with your assertion that these 18 yr old soldiers, marines sailors, coasties and airmen are not better than anyone else. Without them we may well find ourselves under sharia law and then a drinking age would be irrelevant. No one could drink. Josh
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In the old days the only guys willing to go kill for others were supplied with spirits.
Napoleon Bonaparte told the men he requited to fight in Egypt that the Nile flowed with wine.
I think whiskey was invented for WW1 soldiers. Less space taken up.
Civilians in harms way usually get to go home after shift. GI's at war don't. No comparison.
Even cops don't have to kill indiscriminately. If your in---I'm buying!
Zuma
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According to the Constitution and the law, which is what this conversation ultimately comes down to, we are equal. There are a lot of things that cause some to grow up and mature faster than others but years of age is the only quantifiable measure we have.
And of course, thank you for your service.
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Good point marks. We cant have some being " more equal than others " can we? So I agree it should stay the same across the board.
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According to the Constitution and the law, which is what this conversation ultimately comes down to, we are equal. There are a lot of things that cause some to grow up and mature faster than others but years of age is the only quantifiable measure we have.
And of course, thank you for your service.
You are incorrect sir. The Declaration of Independence states that all men are created equal, not the constitution. The constitution was written so that men born equal were guaranteed the freedom to make of their life what they will, for better or worse. It comes down to givers and takers. Givers give more to their community than they take from it. Takers are the kind of people refuse to contribute to their community, but choose instead to sponge off the efforts of others while criticizing those that are givers and insisting they are equal. We are born equal, I firmly believe that. But we aren't guaranteed equality throughout life. One look around should confirm that some people have made themselves into better people and some have not. Josh
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Somebody buy these guys a beer!
Nice conversation fella's
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If an 18 year old can carry an M4 Assault Rifle, I'd think the same 18 year old should be able to carry a six pack of Brew.
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Darnit. You got me fair and square :-[ on the Declaration of Independence but I stand firm on my point. The 14th Amendment gives us equal protection of laws.
I understand your point on us being what we make of ourselves but we need to all be on an even playing field. If it starts with alcohol, where does it stop?
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As I have already pointed out, military personel are subject to a different code of law known as UCMJ. The fourteenth is irrelevant. This has been entertaining, but no minds will be changed here and I have work to do. Have fun. Josh
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I did a little research. The drinking age on military bases is the same as the state in which it is located (which is 21) unless it is within 50 miles of Canada or Mexico then it can be 18 but only under the approval of the base commander. Then drinking age overseas can be 18 depending on the country and again only under the approval of the base commander. I'm assuming all of this is on base because off base would be difficult for MPs to police and confusing for local police. Plus whats the point in visiting home and going to drink a beer when your buddies when technically they aren't legal to drink one with you.
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Let's see....you can get married, vote, go to adult prison, sign documents that are life changing, and tell your parents to piss off....yep, you should be able to drink....but remember, that 18-90 yrs old does NOT make you responsible, and the responsibility that goes with drinking should be the focus of anyone that chooses to drink. ;) ;)
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I do believe that your questions regarding their maturity level and the assumption that they are no better than anyone else is indeed an aspersion upon their character. I caught the part about your patriotism and I'm not questioning that. I think what you're missing is that years alone are no measure of maturity. Life experiences bring on maturity and that is the key to this debate. I can't make you understand the life altering experience the military brings about with mere words. That has to be experienced. What I and others are trying to point out is that an 18 yr old service member cannot be compared as an equal with the average same age civilian. The sum total of each category of 18 yr olds experience is the Apple and orange comparison you referred to. I also disagree with your assertion that these 18 yr old soldiers, marines sailors, coasties and airmen are not better than anyone else.
I have major issues with this. Before I continue, I would like to say that I have the utmost respect for the military in my home country of Canada and also for our neighbors to the south. I have several family members and friends who are in various stages of their military career from entry level to retirement. I commend every service person for their service.
But that being said, being in the military makes you no better than anyone else. I have a great respect for a number of people in the military that I know personally. But there are also just as many of them who I wouldn't let buy me beer, much less the other way around. I know a number of servicemen that I consider to be absolute scum, based on the way they treat their wives, their children, and the way they conduct themselves in general. I also know people who fill the whole spectrum in between those extremes.
I'm not intending to paint all service people with the same brush, just the opposite in fact. You don't automatically gain my respect for being in the military alone. That certainly scores you some good points, but you earn my respect by demonstrating your character. I absolutely will compare them equally with others, and will judge them on their merit and not their job description. They are still just people after all.
My point is that you can't make broad judgments about the character of any group of people, soldiers included.
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"My point is that you can't make broad judgments about the character of any group of people, soldiers included."
I disagree somewhat.
I'll simply say that in general one may with a few exceptions here and there, judge groups of people based upon their character.
When one hears the word, Police Officer, one conjures up in one's mind a person who serves his fellow man, thus making a broad judgment.
When one hears the word Doctor, one tends to think of a Professional group of people who heal, tend others, and are positive contributors to humanity.
When I hear the word Soldier I think of someone who has decided, for reason known to the individual, of someone willing to do that which others have decided to opt out on. I think of service to a greater good. I assume I do this because I have a working knowledge of soldiers. Perhaps I would feel different if this was not the case.
That's just my opinion. I've been wrong before. :)
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I was in the Army and served in Iraq. Drinking was not allowed in country. It happened but still not allowed. I think that if a young soldier is old enough to serve his/her country then he/she sould be able to buy a drink. That being said most young soldiers that I served with could not hold their liquor. So it was not wise to drink especially if you could be attacked at any moment. We we're mortared every day when I was over, most got shot down but some made it through. I. Would much rather someone sober watching my back than someone drunk. I also think that someone returning home from war will have enough to worry about. Its a hard transition from combat life to home life and most if not all troops returning home will have some sort of depression or PTSD and should not touch the stuff. Anyway thats my two cents. Hope I didn't offend anyone.
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Ditto on the depression ( feel like you shouldnt be home. I almost volunteered another round when I was out ) and ptsd ( I dont have but know some who do ). Being home is often harder than being gone. I never drink when stressed or depressed. For that very reason.
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The original question was should young men and woman ages 18-20 who serve in the military be allowed to consume alcohol. The question was vague however most would upon looking at the original question think it dealt with drinking here in CONUS (Continental United States). Deployed outside the Continental US it's a non issue for the military, because Command directives will dictate who, where, when one may consume adult beverages.
The oath you take upon enlistment says your going to obey the orders of those appointed over you. When you serve you give up certain rights. That's the nature of the game. You want to play, you got to pay.
18-20 year old military members are no different today then in past years by and large.
When I was stationed in the 101st back in 77-79 the drinking age was 18 years old, I was 18 years old so I had a few beers from time to time. We had problems, but they were no more different problems then in 1997 then when I was a First Sergeant in the same Division years later.
You should not make laws for the few who cannot accept the responsibilities of adulthood. Play stupid games, and win stupid prizes.
The list goes on and on.
We should control guns because some people uses guns in the an unlawful manor.
We should restrict free speech because some people say hurtful things about others.
Freedom is about being free to make choices. Every time some law is passed it's often passed to restrict someone's freedom. I say let freedom ring. Let those who are unable to act in an adult manor pay the price for making poor choices. Don't make the vast majority pay for the actions of those unable to conduct themselves in a grown up fashion. Adulthood requires people to conduct themselves as adults and accept responsibility for the actions they take.
I found it stupid that my son who upon graduation from Ft Knox KY and Armor School as an M1 Abrams Crewman could not have a cold beer with his Retired Airborne Infantryman father. We did not have that cold brew because we are adults and we made decisions based up right and wrong, rules, laws and regulations. Still did not make it any less stupid.
Like I continue to say. My opinion is my opinion. Others may see things differently. :)
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I think the drinking age restrictions in our country help to promote eventual alcoholism. If you have to wait a long time for something, one tends to over indulge when that day finally arrives. Most countries that have no age restrictions on drinking have far lower alcoholism rates, some don't even recognize alcoholism as a disease. If you are brought up to have a beer or wine with a meal or after, there's nothing special/mysterious about it. I'm convinced that most of the restrictions on our freedoms put in place to keep us safe from ourselves, actually have the opposite effect. Everyone knows if you tell a child they can't do or have something all they can think about is what's forbidden.
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Keep in mind that all have to obey the law. Now if the law written says the legal age for alcohol consumption is 18 and this allows military personnel to drink then so be it. BUT remember that the senior high school class is chuck full of 18 year olds and that would make it legal for them to drink as well.
Be careful what you wish for. Someday you young ones will have 18 year old sons and DAUGHTERS. Get my drift.
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I got the drift
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here ya go. lol
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First off, well said Jon. Slackbunny it sounds as though you're saying half the Canadian military or at least a sizable portion is absolute scum? That would be the irony I mentioned in response to Marks post. You are free to express your opinion however much I find it distasteful and disrespectful towards the people who protect your freedom. That includes to a large degree those that you refer to as "absolute scum". I'll back on out of this at this point and leave one parting promise. Like Zuma said, if you're in, I'm buying. Josh
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I never said half. But yes, I've met enough distasteful military people to know that just being in the military does not make you a respectable person. I know that these people are are in the minority, not necessarily a significant minority, but certainly not a negligible minority.
If you already are an upstanding respectable person, military service makes you distinctly more so. But that one good thing doesn't turn a crappy person into a good one. Military service is a good mark on anyone's track record. But an ass is an ass regardless of what uniform it wears.
I really am not trying to discredit the military or service people in general. I'm only making the point that just like every other group of people out there, you can't accurately make blanket statements about the maturity or character of its members based solely on their membership in that particular group.
Some of the best people I know are military. Also some of the worst. What conclusion is there to make other than the military has a wide range of individuals, with a wide range of characteristics both good and bad?
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Having served 5 years I met few folks I had to serve with I didnt care for. Asses to the troops and even their wife. One guy in my squadron died when one of our birds went down. He had been cheating for a long time. His wife had one child by him and was carrying another. When she fou d out he died she was so upset she miscarried. Poor woman didnt even know the man she married wasnt even worth the grief that cost her her unborn baby.
Yeah, there's some real jerks who deserve no honor. The military does punish those who commit crimes when caught but because of the brotherhood among us, its hard to get found out. We need to know the other guy has our back even if we dont like him. Seen plenty of fights, insane insults, gross actions between service members. You would be amazed at how some conduct themselves. We look good in formation but afterwards, integrity really is who you are when nobody is looking. It would be nieve to think otherwise.
For those who dont know, gun doc, your support for us is welcome and appreciated. But relax on slackbunny. He has a valid point. On the other hand, if your buying, I may just shut up.....
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I'm being as relaxed as I possibly can on this subject and only that through no small effort of will. I would be happy to buy the first round should ever our paths cross Sleek. But that is a different matter than the discussion at hand. We are civilians far removed from the 18 yr olds in harms way that we once were. Speaking for myself, I neither need nor expect any special treatment for my service long ago. That being said, I will always defend the honor of those that are defending our freedom abroad. Are there those in the service that slipped through the cracks? Sure. But they are the exception not the rule. I won't stand for the extreme majority to be condemned by the actions of a very scant few. Thanks to their sacrifices and commitment you can say what you want about them or anything else, but so can I and I will decide how relaxed I will be when I say it. Josh
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Thats fine Gun Doc and certainly the few dont set the standard the many. Out of 200 people I knew 3 I thought were dirt bags. They held the same of me so at least we were even.
Anyways I said my piece and am disengaging from this topic. Maybe one day we can have a drink together, until then, see you in another topic :)