Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: paco664 on March 28, 2015, 01:05:55 am
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66.5" ntn board bow made from red oak with a 1/8th" hickory backing... very very simple design basically straight the whole way and tapering in the final 6"on each limb from 1 3/8th" to 5/8th"...
Gonna have a lot of finishing to do but oh well. .all in good fun right?
Anyway on short string and 47#s hanging from the string @21"... aiming to make 50-55 @ 29"
The tiller looks to me like i wanted it to but you guys opinions are much much more valuable than mine. ..
Anyway
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/20150328_000535.png) (http://s486.photobucket.com/user/barton664/media/20150328_000535.png.html)
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Could we trouble you for a pic that doesn't have the ellipse added? That would make it easier for some of us to see it well.
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Same photo no elipse. ..
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/20150328_000535.jpg) (http://s486.photobucket.com/user/barton664/media/20150328_000535.jpg.html)
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Need to get the outer limbs bending.....It's only bending in the fades... The whole outer half of both limbs are straight "as a board"...
What's the back profile and the unbraced shape look like? I'll bet you've already got set at those two spots that are the only thing bending...
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Stiff tips
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I see now what you mean. .. there is about 1.5-2" of set...
I'll work on the outers and no more on the inners...
The profile is straight sides all the way except for the final 6"before the tips. .
Thanks for the quick reply
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5" brace
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/20150328_010758.jpg) (http://s486.photobucket.com/user/barton664/media/20150328_010758.jpg.html)
After removing an equal amount from the outers of each limb she now goes to 22" with 47# on the string and i measured the set after 10 mins of being unstrung 1.25"...
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/20150328_011205.jpg) (http://s486.photobucket.com/user/barton664/media/20150328_011205.jpg.html)
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I would say it still needs more bend in the outers. If youre going to overlay ellipses, the belly should follow the edge of the ellipse for most of the bending portion of limb. Your limbs followed the curve of that ellipse for about a foot, then the limbs were completely obscured by the ellipse, making it impossible to tell the tiller.
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Once you see how its done in person, you'll be off...and running.
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Try to find somewhere to take the pics that has a more even back ground. It will help you to see what's going on.
You have be your own harshest critic to get really good tiller.
Holding a plate or CD or something round in front of the bow (or a picture of it) is a great check. Mind I like a circular tiller, but an eliptical tiller is only slightly elliptical and some bows with stiff grips are more like a circular tiller on each limb with a few inches between the centre of of the two circles.
Using 'Paint' to draw curves needs to be done with caution else it can give a false impression.
If you talk to the real top guys about their bows (or any craftsman about their work) you'll find they will point out faults that most people can't even see or even if they could see it, they wouldn't know it's a fault.
I've shown how I see the tiller. The poor background has the edge of the ceiling obsuring the belly of the bow near the grip so it's V hard to see what's really happening.
You have to draw the ellipse so it is just touching the bow consistently where it can. The ellipse isn't there to average out and disguise the errors... it's there to help you see them.(See the annotated version of your ellipse)
My take on it shows issues that the other have pointed out.
Sorry if all this sounds harsh, and as you say, it that's the tiller shape you want with stiff Mollegabet style levers, that's cool.
Del
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When you see hinges you can't just pull the bow back until they go away.
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That stick ain't ready to brace yet..let alone pulling it that far...that's why its taking so much set already...a lam bow starting straight and pulling that far shouldn't have taken much if any set yet...I'll be more straight up...that bows hinged in the fades..more so left limb than right limb. And hinges at fades pulled to far really accentuates set and string follow robbing cast. Never pull any further than an error in your tiller regardless of how much weight its reading. Just because you want a 50 pound bow doesn't mean you pull it to 50 pounds. If a hinge starts showing at 20 you stop there and fix it and to no further untilk its gone. Since you have a board use a straight edge or tiller gizmo to show you where its bending to much and needs scraped if you can't see it with your own eyes.
Next issue is your front profile. That needs fixed too. Find mid limb and start your taper there. With a front profile like that with all the bend in the fades its gonna rattle all your teethers out. I'd reduce that first and see what the bend looks like,and then go from there reducing from the belly in the outer half of your limbs.
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Try to find somewhere to take the pics that has a more even back ground. It will help you to see what's going on.
You have be your own harshest critic to get really good tiller.
Holding a plate or CD or something round in front of the bow (or a picture of it) is a great check. Mind I like a circular tiller, but an eliptical tiller is only slightly elliptical and some bows with stiff grips are more like a circular tiller on each limb with a few inches between the centre of of the two circles.
Using 'Paint' to draw curves needs to be done with caution else it can give a false impression.
If you talk to the real top guys about their bows (or any craftsman about their work) you'll find they will point out faults that most people can't even see or even if they could see it, they wouldn't know it's a fault.
I've shown how I see the tiller. The poor background has the edge of the ceiling obsuring the belly of the bow near the grip so it's V hard to see what's really happening.
You have to draw the ellipse so it is just touching the bow consistently where it can. The ellipse isn't there to average out and disguise the errors... it's there to help you see them.(See the annotated version of your ellipse)
My take on it shows issues that the other have pointed out.
Sorry if all this sounds harsh, and as you say, it that's the tiller shape you want with stiff Mollegabet style levers, that's cool.
Del
thank you Del
duly noted on background but that's the only place in my house i can put that tree and the other direction would be even worse of a background.. :-\
and i don't mind the harsh criticism... i asked for true opinions not people to tell me it looks great when it isn't...
this is a bend thru the handle and it is bending there...
Patm... i didn't see any hinges
Blackhawk... will do on the taper... thanks for the honesty...
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Follow Del's diagrams and I think that will adjust a lot, especially the outer limbs.
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Great things for a tillering background: bedsheet of a contrasting colour strung up, in the background. Doors, curtains are great as well.
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I hate to say it but you need to study a few pictures of Kim Kardashian and learn what a curve looks like. ;D
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Come to think of it, I may need to study up too Pat. Great advice. ;D
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I hate to say it but you need to study a few pictures of Kim Kardashian and learn what a curve looks like. ;D
lol. . My little Cuban princess has curves that make KK look flat. ..
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Now this thread is going in the right.......wrong............different direction? ;)
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ok... after spending an entire day and half a night at parnells house yesterday i learned an incredible amount of info.
first and foremost is that Parnell is a great guy and a gracious host who is extremely helpful and patient and generous with time and knowledge i am pleased and blessed to count him as a friend. i also got to speak with Mullet on the telephone and cannot wait to meet him in person as i know those 2 are the same type of kind people
and my problem... i have been overbuilding everything and making things bend wayyyyyyy before they are ready to... it struck my when i looked at his great collection of bows he has made that they are TINY.. thin... almost frail looking little sticks...
i've been forcing 1/2" thick by 1.5" wide pieces of wood to bend against their will and wondering what i did wrong when they exploded...
well... fortunately i am a quick learner :D
i also found out that my draw length is not 29" as first thought but instead i pull a tad over 32" *(i am tall with long arms and built like a gorilla *(according to Parnell)..
today i thinned this bow out by an incredible amount *(to me) and thanks to parnell's teachings how to make it bend like i want it to...
so i have spent a buttload of time today gently bending this stick and using the gizmo and i "think" i am on the right track... the gizmo shows me i have the entire limb working except for the last 4" or so of the tips which i do want slightly stiff.
*(i know i will be rapidly corrected if i am wrong)
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/20150329_163328.png) (http://s486.photobucket.com/user/barton664/media/20150329_163328.png.html)
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/20150329_163328.jpg) (http://s486.photobucket.com/user/barton664/media/20150329_163328.jpg.html)
i also at PatM's request googled kim kardashian... it led to a video of her doing a few things i hope i don't have to do to become a bowyer....
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Looks like you've got that bending much better, now. Your close now. It was a good day, to be continued, buddy! I'll post a couple photos I took yesterday, later.
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I think you are still a little stiff in those outer limbs, though. Slow and steady, exercise those limbs...you'll get it.
Here are a few of the pictures of your progress on Saturday.
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Nice Paco looking much better. Steve is a helpful guy glad you guys got it figured out.
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still needs to bend more on the outer limbs,, :)
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still needs to bend more on the outer limbs,, :)
thanks. .. it is bending much better now... i have been gozmoing it to death. ..
I'll post photos later
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Ain't it great having an experienced hand give ya a helping hand? ;)
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Ain't it great having an experienced hand give ya a helping hand? ;)
yes. . A 1000 times yes. ..
And seeing the views he has made made me realize how much i was overbuilding things...
If you look at the first photos i put on this thread and see it as it is now *(photos later tonight. .I'm at work) you'll see i have thinned the limbs *(especially the now bending outer limbs) by half. ..
It bends so pretty now even my wife commented about how much smother and natural the bends look now. ..
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Ok tillered and is pulling 49.8lbs@27...
I need 29.5-30" ...
My question being. .. i wanted 50-55#@29.5-30 *(i know i won't get my full 32"out of it) do i continue to lightly scrape equal amounts from each limb or exercise it out to my 29.5-30" and the weight is what it is...
Here i am pulling ~28"... to my noob eyes the tiller looks even. . *note. . I am not holding the bow in the center which makes it look longer on top limb. .. I had to rush because the little Cuban princess wasn't happy about photo duties..
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/20150401_002135.jpg) (http://s486.photobucket.com/user/barton664/media/20150401_002135.jpg.html)
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Looking pretty good - hey...much better. Here is a picture of what I'm seeing. You seem a bit flat still in your top limb - see where to scrape from the yellow. Don't remove any more where you see the heavy bending, of course. Consider maybe reducing width of your outer limbs as you tiller from here to bring it to arc. By concentrating on width you reduce more mass from the limb and thereby improve the bows cast. It will also reduce hand shock when you go to shoot the bow. Almost there...got my fingers crossed for you.
P.s. Remember wood is about 8 times stronger in thickness than width in the bending process.
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Ok! .. thanks Steve
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Took Steves advice and narrowed the limbs smoothly and equally and i "think" I'm there. ..
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/20150402_000851.jpg) (http://s486.photobucket.com/user/barton664/media/20150402_000851.jpg.html)
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/20150402_000851.png) (http://s486.photobucket.com/user/barton664/media/20150402_000851.png.html)
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That's looking real good. I would say your patience and persistence has paid off.
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That's looking real good. I would say your patience and persistence has paid off.
thank you kindly. ..
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Looking good paco what's the bows stats as of now?
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Nicely done! I'd get an arrow shot and bask in the glory of your first bow.
Ya done good. It seems like a bow could be tweaked and primped over for just about ever.
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On the tiller tree it shows 51.3#@28"... i will not pull it further on the tree because it makes me nervous. .. i have pulled it numerous times to my 29.5-30" goal and i would guess it's right at 53~55ish...
I'm gonna mark it 52@29.5 and call it good...
I want to pass out a heartfelt thank you to everybody that has given me the very helpful advice that got me across the finish line especially you Steve. .
now I just need 15 more coats of tru-oil on it and 5 of wipe on polyurithane