Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Jjpso on March 26, 2015, 11:09:12 am
-
Hello guys.
First congratulations everyone for all the great wok You do, and also for this great forum - even tough i dont participante much, i come here in a daily basis.
I started last year to try to build some bows and after a couple of board ones, i tried a oak stave from a tree i cut in a family property.
It has a pyramid profile 2" at fades, 0,5" at tip and 65,5 tip to tip.
The wood behaved better than i expected, it ended up 51 pounds at 26", and the tiller, even if not perfect was not bad, ended up with 0,5" string follow after shoot an 0 after est.
But because i wanted a bit more draw weigth -and also because i am stupid- í steamed the handle region to put some deflex and hopefuly raise the draw weigth to 55#
I left it clamped for 2 days but when i put the string again to see how it was, i realised the draw was only 38# at 26" and the limbs where working less near the fades and more in the obter third.
What harpejes?! Was it the moisture?!
Hope someone can help.
Best regards,
João pedro from portugal
-
Putting deflex in the handle u essentially lessened the string tension. Reflex will be ur answer to raising the weight. If u reflex the tips u may get some weight. Also have u heat treated the belly? And PICS! They always help. How much deflex?
-
Why did you put deflex in it? The wood probably has moisture in it now I would let it sit for a while after steaming. Also oak responds well to heat treating so I would try that to raise the draw weight.
-
Thank you both.
Blafair: please correct me if i am wrong, but if i deflex the handle, arent the tips have to travel more for the same draw length, thus increasing the draw weigth?!
I already heat treated the belly when i started tillering.
Alwayslookin: i did it because i read in TBBII that doing this could increase draw weigth, performance and reduce string follow...
-
Hello Jjpso. I just wanted to say that I took a trip to Portugal last October. What a pretty country! The people were real nice too. As far as the bowmaking, stick with it. Find some other species of native wood and cut bow staves. Experiment if you have to.
-
Deflex, limbs bending toward the belly. Reflex, limbs bending towards the back.
Your stave may still have a bit of moisture in it from the steaming also.
-
Deflex, limbs bending toward the belly. Reflex, limbs bending towards the back.
Your stave may still have a bit of moisture in it from the steaming also.
Hello Pat B.
Thats exactly the notions i have
saying "deflex handle" is not acurate?
Do you think the moisture it may still have justifies that kind of weigth loss?
Jimmy: i am really glad that you liked my country, where in Portugal have you been?
-
You need to reflex the handle that will up the draw weight. Oak is a good wood and you should definitely be able to get good results with heat treating the belly. I have yet to use steam to bend wood yet but hear you have to let it reach equilibrium again before bending. I would go ahead and reflex the handle heat treat the belly then let it sit for a week or two before pulling on it. I'm still née to the game so if I'm wrong on any of that somebody will chime in. Good luck brother!
-
The travel less if u bend the handle the way the limbs bend. Reflexing it makes the limbs bend more at the same length. Which would have raised the weight. U could still probly heat treat once u let it stabilize and gain some weight
-
Are the tips foreward of the handle?
-
I did like this: i steamed the handle and 3 or 4 inches each side of the fades; i puted the bow in a working table, over 2 wood blocks separated by maybe 12 inches; i pressured the bow with a clamp, in the direction of the table.
I understand that doing this i am deflexing the handle, am i wrong? Wouldnt this raise the weigth, instead of droping it?!
I already heat treat it once, and did some string alignment corrections, dont know if i should heat treat again...
I believe it must have been the moisture from the steaming that is still in the wood, i cant find any other reason for the draw weigth loss...
Bubby, if i lay the bow over the back side, there is around 1/2" space...
-
Yes u are wrong, deflexing will lower the weight.
-
Yes u are wrong, deflexing will lower the weight.
I am sorry because i am just starting, so i am sorry all my questions
Please confirm me, This that i did is deflexing the handle? How can this reduce the draw weigth, if i am putting tips and handle furder appart?! Doing this to the handle is not at the same time reflexing the tips?!
Again i am sorry for all this questions, i hope you have the patience...
-
You are just confusing yourself and everyone else...
You need to use the same words as the rest of us.
The side of the bow that faces the archer is the belly, the side that faces the target is the back.
If you seam bend the limbs so that they bend more towards the archer that is deflex and will lower draw weight, (but give more draw length)
If the limbs bend away from the archer then that's reflex and will increase draw weight.
You can't deflex or reflex a handle... only the limbs.
Steaming the handle and clamping it down is fine... but we don't know if the bow was clamped belly up or back up...! ::)
I think we are all a bit confused!
Del
-
Hi Jipso,
I think pictures would really help to overcome the confusion.
Deflex means the relaxed bow looks a bit as if it was already braced
Reflex means the relaxed bow looks as if it was strung the wrong way around.
(In fact you regularly see museums displaying reflex bow strung the wrong way... :o)
Most european oaks are not good bowwood.
-
You can deflex the handle but then reflex the limbs so the tips are forward past the handle. This is how many glass R/D bows are made. By deflexing only the handle the tips will be behind the handle, giving it less draw weight.
FYI, incase you didn't know...The back of the bow faces away from the shooter. The belly faces towards the shooter. Limbs bent toward the back are reflexed, limbs bent toward the belly are deflexed. Reflexing increases the draw weight, deflex decreases the draw weight.
-
Del, most would say that deflex and reflex are also a bend in the handle area.
Clearly he means that he reflexed the handle or" setback" if that makes everyone happier.
Likely the steaming softened the fades and the increased overall stress weakened the rest of the bow as well which would explain the drop in weight.
-
You are just confusing yourself and everyone else...
You need to use the same words as the rest of us.
The side of the bow that faces the archer is the belly, the side that faces the target is the back.
If you seam bend the limbs so that they bend more towards the archer that is deflex and will lower draw weight, (but give more draw length)
If the limbs bend away from the archer then that's reflex and will increase draw weight.
You can't deflex or reflex a handle... only the limbs.
Steaming the handle and clamping it down is fine... but we don't know if the bow was clamped belly up or back up...! ::)
I think we are all a bit confused!
Del
I am sorry for all this confusion, i understand these concepts, perhaps i am not explaining correctly.
Del, you are rigth i should have said that i clamped the bow with BELLY DOWN wich, in my view, would deflex the handle region and reflex the tips
.Hi Jipso,
I think pictures would really help to overcome the confusion.
Deflex means the relaxed bow looks a bit as if it was already braced
Reflex means the relaxed bow looks as if it was strung the wrong way around.
(In fact you regularly see museums displaying reflex bow strung the wrong way... :o)
Most european oaks are not good bowwood.
Jodocus, i dont knowvthe exact specie of oak, but i was surprised with the result, it shot really well and flat with 550 - 600 grains arrows... probably i should have accepted that the bow was 50# and not try to get 55#
Pat m and Pat B, Thanks for your opinion...
I am sorry again for all the confusion...
Best regards
João from Portugal.
-
Joao, with the bow handle clamped to the table, belly down, and the tips up on blocks will give you reflexed limbs, not a deflexed handle.
-
He said he had the handle on blocks and clamped the fades, deflexing the handle
-
Pics would definitely help, but you have described it pretty clearly now. So, if the tips are reflexed , which is what it sounds like...how did it lose weight? I think everyone assumed it must be because the opposite adjustment (deflex tips/limbs) was made, but if that isn't it, what could cause such a big weight loss? Moisture content? Broken scale (wouldn't that be nice!)?
-
I'm Sooo confused!! Seriously, if you posted some pictures it would clear everything up and these guys would be able to tell exactly what went wrong. A picture is worth 1000 posts explaining how you clamped the handle into deflex.
-
He said he had the handle on blocks and clamped the fades, deflexing the handle
Where did he say that?
-
bending the handle is pretty extreme way to gain a few pounds
cutting the tips a bit shorter would give you the weight without compromising the whole bow( or recurving them a bit)
we have all ruined bows trying to make them just a bit "better" that is common mistake
your bow may have moisture issues,, fix that first, and then see if you want to proceed to increase your weight
I am not sure what you did to your handle, bottom line,,, it did not work,,,so a different approach is needed
i feel like if you get the moisture the same as before you steamed,, your weight will come back
a heat box may be in order
bending the handle to put the tips further forward may add weight,, but it may just make the bow take more set and off set itself,,, I have had success doing this,, and failure :)
-
There is also a difference in heating slowly to make corrections and heat tempering the belly to gain weight.
-
There is also a difference between heating to bend the wood and heat tempering the belly to gain draw weight.
-
If moisture is not an issue there is a good chance that the bow lost weight simply because it was overstressed. Anything you do to add stress and gain weight back might just exagerate the problem. Cutting it shorter, or reflexing may make it worse. It just depends why it lost weight, I would figure that out first.
-
Most european oaks are not good bowwood.
Jodocus: allow me to disagree. European oaks (Quercus robur, Q. petraea) are pretty similar to white oak , which is considered pretty good bow wood. The Q. robur I have makes very good flatbows.
Next, there is hardly such a thing as bad bow woods, there are only bad designs. Not every wood works for every design...
This said, you did reflex the limbs entirely, it seems. I wouldn't do that again to raise weight, as the amount of reflex gained that way is very difficult to control. Better to have stiff tips and reflex or recurve them gently.
But I fear that you encountered what Badger wrote: overstraining the belly. Did the bow take a lot of visible set relative to the setback you induced?
Any way, you're not on this forum to make just one bow, so learn from this experience and make a new one, and then another and so on. 8)
-
Any way, you're not on this forum to make just one bow,
Best advice I have seen on here in 8 years!
-
Thank you all, i will wait a few days and see happens.
Best regards
João from portugal