Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: bow-noob on March 09, 2015, 02:24:01 pm
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Hi, i have just used a two part epoxy from the dollar store to do a handle splice and boo back a lumber bow. I see now that maybe this wasn't the best idea but so far there is no issues, i dried strong but who knows what's really in there and if it will flex.
I am looking for the strongest and possibly the cheapest way to splice billets in the handle, was looking at DAP weldwood plasic resien stuff but would consider something else, i would use normal wood glue but my splices always have a bit of gaps..
then i plan on backing the bows with boo and thinking tb3 as it will be non toxic and pretty cheap, and my backs will be pretty smooth, but i am wonder if the tb3 will stick to the DAP weldwood or if there is somethign better to use.
Thanks
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I would use a known good brand name glue for everything that is stressed on a bow.
There is a saying in the UK...
"penny wise , pound foolish".
I s'pose that translates to "Cent wise Dollar foolish"
You don't want to save a few cents on glue and then ruin several dollars worth of timber.
Del
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I have found normal epoxy is too brittle for handle splices. Buy some Unibond, if you have a few weeks in a bow it is worth using a good glue for splices and backings.
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DAP Weldwood is good stuff, but personally, I try to stay away from water based products - just a personal choice though. I've been using Resorcinol lately with terrific results! It was recommended to me by a friend who is a wooden boat builder by trade, and this stuff is good, industrial strength, all weather glue that will not fail you if you mix it right. It's expensive, but it's worth it if you ask me.
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Hi, ya i was looking the dap weldwood it looks good. It might be nice to have the same glue for the backing as the splice but doesn't have to be.
I forgot to mention, i guess i would prefer something less toxic if possible to be spending so much time with it would be nice. I know tightbond 3 would be good for the backing, might just go with that, but so far i have seen the need for gap filling for splices, and i guess tt3 needs to clamped tightly and wont fill gaps
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Id suggest a can of Uni Bond 800 for any backing material and any splice.
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Unibond or smooth on, get a lot of bows done for the money
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Devcon 30 minute, never had issues....you must mix well.
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Weldwood Plastic Resin is a urea glue like Urac and Unibond, comes in powder form, mixes with water, works well and is cheap.
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I think i will go with the dap stuff so far, yes i used dollar store epoxy on my latest bow, and no i don't feel so smart about doing that as i don't trust it really.
as for DAP plastic wood :
1. it will fill slight gaps a bit in spice areas ?
2. it needs to be clamped tight like wood glue or more like epoxy ?
3. will a 3m - p100 mask filter set up provide any protection from working with this type of glue, is this dap stuff pretty harmeful compared to other glues ? seems like if you spending lots of time with the stuff worth thinking about when choosing a decent product.
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I would not use Dap for splices, although it is a good glue (as Pat B said) better for gluing lams...my opinion. :) Just is not thick enough glue....and messy as hell.
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Quotes that popped in my head. "You get what you pay for" stepping over dollars to pick up dimes" "if its worth being done, it worth being done right the first time". What is a bow with a broken handle slpice? It is just wood. And my favorite "you can do things cheap, you can do things fast, or you can do things right"
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My z splices are rarely "perfect". But I use tb3. Then go back with either the DAP when I laminate the backing or strong ten ton epoxy....have used the gorilla epoxy to good effect.
DAP Is great for wood to Boo joints or risers with some gaps.
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Where are you getting 10 ton epoxy? Brand?
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As a cautionary note, I repaired a socket type take down that broke while using a stringer. The stringer socket covered the nock and I couldn't tell that the string loop was only half way on! So I made a V type splice and used 5 minute epoxy on the upper limb handle. The splice look good and snug so I shot it over the next couple of weeks, maybe two hundred shots. I went out to our range one morning and at the first target on the bag range
I drew the bow back to my usual 31"and BAM!!!!! The splice gave way with no noise just smacked me in the head and abdomen and put me to my knees bleeding profusely from my scalp!!! I was really dazed and felt like the bottom limb had penetrated my abdomen. This bow was a laminated wood and glass long bow, 62 lbs at 28"
so at 31" I was likely pulling 71 lbs. I have broken many wood bows since but none of them were near as bad as this one. It was a humbling lesson!!! Could have been worse and taken my eye out. The epoxy completely failed
after two hundred shots. A better type of glue and even a strong wrap would have been worth what ever price!!! cheers fiddler49
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As a cautionary note, I repaired a socket type take down that broke while using a stringer. The stringer socket covered the nock and I couldn't tell that the string loop was only half way on! So I made a V type splice and used 5 minute epoxy on the upper limb handle. The splice look good and snug so I shot it over the next couple of weeks, maybe two hundred shots. I went out to our range one morning and at the first target on the bag range
I drew the bow back to my usual 31"and BAM!!!!! The splice gave way with no noise just smacked me in the head and abdomen and put me to my knees bleeding profusely from my scalp!!! I was really dazed and felt like the bottom limb had penetrated my abdomen. This bow was a laminated wood and glass long bow, 62 lbs at 28"
so at 31" I was likely pulling 71 lbs. I have broken many wood bows since but none of them were near as bad as this one. It was a humbling lesson!!! Could have been worse and taken my eye out. The epoxy completely failed
after two hundred shots. A better type of glue and even a strong wrap would have been worth what ever price!!! cheers fiddler49
The five minute epoxy, cures way too fast, and is brittle because the the excelled curing time. With epoxy quick is not always good. Devcon, and other similar at the store brands with the 30 minute set is not "cured" for 24hrs, BIG difference. I think Tim Baker in the first bowyers bible on glue comparisons was using a few different epoxies in his test...Rescorcnol gave @25lbs, five-minute epoxy @28lbs, two-ton @44lbs. These tests were using maple samples of the same size, seemed to be a rather fair test just about anyone can duplicate. :)
Now, My favorite is Devcon, never had a problem, but that's my luck...I guess ;) You must stir the crap out of the stuff. I would not use it in ANY bending areas as think this epoxy is made for rigid applications.
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I think i will set the dollar store bow aside as i have barely started to tiller it.
I think i will put a couple of dowels threw the handle splice and take off the bamboo backing and start over on that one. Oh well, kind of figured that stuff was a bad idea.. ordered some of the DAP as i couldn't get it locally.
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Dowels do not strengthen a handle splice, been there done that.
Adding a piece of wood to the back of the handle does strengthen the splice by increasing the glued surface area. Of course a quality glue is needed to get he best results.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/bow%20making/limbreplacement11.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/bow%20making/limbreplacement11.jpg.html)
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No dowels here either, never needed it. What I do different than most (from what I have seen including Erics picture above) Is I first glue both handles on the billets,(otherwise each billet gets it's own piece) then splice through both the billets, and the handle....this gives a lot of added strength. Some might think that's ugly...but you already have the back splice to hide, so what's the big deal for the added security. :)
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I guess after my research all i could find tells me the 5 min epoxy is pretty strong, stronger than wood glue anyways, i understand on the bending part it might be to brittle, but it seems like will hold up fine if not better than tb3 on the handle splice. Has anyone actually tried 5 min epoxy for the backing without failure ?
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Uni Bond 800
You need work time to properly apply a back and get it all clamped down. 5 minutes isn't near enough.
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I don't put any handles on. If I can't carve it I don't use it.
But I do know,this is'nt this isn't the place to save penny's.
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I don't put any handles on. If I can't carve it I don't use it.
But I do know,this is'nt this isn't the place to save penny's.
Then you limit yourself on perfectly good bow wood...to each his own. :)
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Del---Use a good brand
Eric---No epoxy. Unibond 800
Wood Spring---Dap Weldwood or Resorcinol
Pearl Drums---Uni bond 800
Bubby--- Unibond 800 or Smooth ON
VMB--Devcon 30
Pat B---Weldwood Plastic Resin
JoJo-- You get what you pay for
Prairie Bowyer-- TB3, Dap, Gorilla Epoxy
Fiddler--- 5 minute epoxy failed
VMB----5 minute epoxy brittle
Pearl Drums----Uni Bond 800. 5 minute not good.
Crooketarrow--- Don't save pennys here.
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I never understand why some people don't research and simply stay within the limits of their existing knowledge base. You're never too old or too wise to learn something new. A bunch of replies on here state that Unibond is the way to go when someone is asking about Dap. People .... Dap is the same basic stuff as Unibond ... it is a urea based formaldehyde resin that has all the same properties. The fact that it is powder based makes for a longer, more viable shelf life, plus it's easier to work with as it's also water based, not to mention that it's cheaper than Unibond. I've had a bunch of Unibond go bad on me because I didn't use it fast enough. It is stronger than the wood itself. I also see some saying they don't like water based glues ... some of the strongest glues are water based ... TBIII is water based, yet waterproof once cured. If you do your own research and experimentation, you may find less expensive, better, and equally as strong, if not stronger alternatives to your more traditional, tried and true methods. And this applies to just about anything else in life. In other words, think outside the box. End rant.
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Welcome! This thread has been weighing on me heavily for the last three years and I feel a weight has been lifted.
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I never understand why some people don't research and simply stay within the limits of their existing knowledge base. You're never too old or too wise to learn something new. A bunch of replies on here state that Unibond is the way to go when someone is asking about Dap. People .... Dap is the same basic stuff as Unibond ... it is a urea based formaldehyde resin that has all the same properties. The fact that it is powder based makes for a longer, more viable shelf life, plus it's easier to work with as it's also water based, not to mention that it's cheaper than Unibond. I've had a bunch of Unibond go bad on me because I didn't use it fast enough. It is stronger than the wood itself. I also see some saying they don't like water based glues ... some of the strongest glues are water based ... TBIII is water based, yet waterproof once cured. If you do your own research and experimentation, you may find less expensive, better, and equally as strong, if not stronger alternatives to your more traditional, tried and true methods. And this applies to just about anything else in life. In other words, think outside the box. End rant.
The problem with Dap is the temperature requirements. Not so bad if the temp never goes below 70F where you live but up North here it is a problem
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The problem with Dap is the temperature requirements. Not so bad if the temp never goes below 70F where you live but up North here it is a problem
Mark, are you talking about the temp requirements while it is curing?
what about once it is dry?
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I never understand why some people don't research and simply stay within the limits of their existing knowledge base. You're never too old or too wise to learn something new. A bunch of replies on here state that Unibond is the way to go when someone is asking about Dap. People .... Dap is the same basic stuff as Unibond ... it is a urea based formaldehyde resin that has all the same properties. The fact that it is powder based makes for a longer, more viable shelf life, plus it's easier to work with as it's also water based, not to mention that it's cheaper than Unibond. I've had a bunch of Unibond go bad on me because I didn't use it fast enough. It is stronger than the wood itself. I also see some saying they don't like water based glues ... some of the strongest glues are water based ... TBIII is water based, yet waterproof once cured. If you do your own research and experimentation, you may find less expensive, better, and equally as strong, if not stronger alternatives to your more traditional, tried and true methods. And this applies to just about anything else in life. In other words, think outside the box. End rant.
+1, Although I've never used dap. I get the frustration when I ask about a certain glue or bring it up, and just get told to use smooth on or unibond.
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I use Titebond II for all kinds of things, including laminations and backings, overlays, etc...
But, for actual splices, like fingered "W" or "Z" splices, or scarfs, or butting lams together on a handle block, etc... Unibond 800, or the very best 2 ton (or stronger) epoxy I can find. Used to be Urac 185.
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I get the frustration when I ask about a certain glue or bring it up, and just get told to use smooth on or unibond.
I think that as bowyers, we use what works (until it doesn't work), and a lot of "recommendations" are just what has worked best for that particular bowyer, so far. Good gluing is as much about proper prep and application as it is about the specific type of product.
that being said, most industrial applications involving highly strained wood have moved to epoxy formulations
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The problem with Dap is the temperature requirements. Not so bad if the temp never goes below 70F where you live but up North here it is a problem
Mark, are you talking about the temp requirements while it is curing?
what about once it is dry?
I have actually heard that before about weldwood: that it might fail if a bow is used in below freezing temperatures. If true, why is that?
Needless to say, that's why I've steered clear of it for the time being until I get an assurance that it won't brittle up in the cold. But I'm all for trying new glues. I've used System Threes T88 with success.
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So, has anyone here experienced an actual bow failing due to using Dap, whether from cold Temps or other issues?
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well we were hoping the guy that said something about cold/failures might weigh in again, as he has quite a bit of experience.
I guess one thing that makes analysis of glue failure difficult is the uncertainty of the autopsy.
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I just had a wide splinter pop along the edge of a hickory backed lemonwood I use Weldwood Plastic Resin. I initially thought the the hickory was bad but it looked more like a dry glue joint, but only in a 1/4"x 6" strip along the edge. There were no clamps where it failed so I'm guessing the surface of the lemonwood was contaminates. The glue stuck well everywhere else and stuck well to the hickory at that area.
I used tire inner tube wrap for clamp with 2 "C" clamps at the handle and one on each tip.
I've had very good luck with Weldwood Plastic Resin over about a 15 year period.
gfugal, I think Marc was referring to the curing temp. At 70 deg it takes 18 to 20 hrs to cure. Probably forever at cooler temps.
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Suprised that im not seeing the letters and numbers EA-40 come up on this thread more. I keep saying im gonna build a laminate but my hearts not in it like self bows. Got a piece of IPE and Boo ready to go. Also not sure if i should use c-clamps, spring clamps, of one of these tire tube or rubber band methods.
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I've used DAP for glueing lambs with no problem. as for it breaking in freezing weather, I learned a long time ago to get epoxy to release or turn brittle to just freeze it. I've taken horn nocks and handles off real easy just freezing them with nitrogen.
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Suprised that im not seeing the letters and numbers EA-40 come up on this thread more. I keep saying im gonna build a laminate but my hearts not in it like self bows. Got a piece of IPE and Boo ready to go. Also not sure if i should use c-clamps, spring clamps, of one of these tire tube or rubber band methods.
Smooth-On is the industry standard for laminated glass bows but the bother of needing a hot box to get the best out of it tends to make people look for other choices.
Plus there actually are epoxies that are better all around and don't require heat for best results.
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Suprised that im not seeing the letters and numbers EA-40 come up on this thread more. I keep saying im gonna build a laminate but my hearts not in it like self bows. Got a piece of IPE and Boo ready to go. Also not sure if i should use c-clamps, spring clamps, of one of these tire tube or rubber band methods.
I have been using TB3 on bo/ipe for years. I was recently reading up on glue strengths and it shows the cheap TB1 yellow glue as being recommended for ipe. I have used it now on 3 100#+ longbows with no issues.
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I never had a bow glued up with any of the TB glues come apart and I've used them on osage, hickory, ipe, yew, locust bellies and hickory and bamboo backs.
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I use TB3 for lams, never had a issue the stuff is incredible in water resistance. I cut rock in my rock saw, generally cut the rock flat on one side, then glue a piece of 2x4 to it as it makes for easy clamping. The glue line is exposed to mineral oil for hours, until I get the last cut. The last cut that is glued to the board I throw in a bucket of water to try to get it to release the stone from the board, it won't give. I have to chisel the last piece off, to me that's plenty strong.
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I've never heard of a glue failing in cold weather after it is set up. I was talking about the temperature requirements the manufacturer says the glue needs to set up properly, like a minimum of 70 degrees.