Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: DC on March 05, 2015, 03:06:08 pm
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Does floor tillering accomplish anything other than getting a stave down to a workable size? Is any harm done by putting a stave on the tree a little early?
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Depends on who you ask and what you want from the stick of wood in your hands. Some are happy with "A" bow while others want "THEE" bow.
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OK How does "proper" floor tillering make the difference between "A" bow and "THEE" bow ;D ;D
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Well I don't know if making THEE bow but I use floor tillering a lot. I am usually ready for brace when I'm done floor tillering. I think if you develop a good eye for floor tillering you will hardly use a tree.
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I have a hard time standing above the bow and seeing if both limbs are bending the same. How the heck do you do that well? I can see it much, much better when the bow is on the tree.
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Bend one limb,flip 180 and repeat.then I start flexing the upper limb by hand while flexing the lower on the floor.takes a little practice and becomes a matter of sight and feel.
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Does floor tillering accomplish anything other than getting a stave down to a workable size? Is any harm done by putting a stave on the tree a little early?
I don't think putting a stave on the tree a little early will harm it - unless you overstress and damage the wood.
Some guys are very good at floor tillering and don't even need to go to a long string or a tree. They brace it up after floor tiller and then finish tillering by hand and mirror.
I am not that good - however, I have found that the better I floor tiller, the easier it is to tiller once I go to the tree.
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I find long string tillering to be deceiving and to me does more harm than good. If you're good at floor tillering you can avoid it so I definitely find floor tillering to be useful.
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I use all these methods. I start with floor tiller; it shows me early on how the limbs are bending and how the limb tension feels. When I can bend the bow tip 4" or so I know its ready for the long string. I start the exercising on the long string even if it is only an inch or two. Then I work out to about 6" to 8" of tip movement, making sure both limbs are bending evenly and together then it time for low brace, then full brace then tillered out to full draw. This keeps me from going too fast while building bows, keeps me on track.
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OK How does "proper" floor tillering make the difference between "A" bow and "THEE" bow ;D ;D
:) I do it like Ryan does. Floor tiller it and brace it low. No tree or long string. The last bow I made was even tillered right off, I just reduced weight. That doesn't always happen. Read the grain and watch the taper. It tells the story almost every time if the bow was taken from the stave right.
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I also skip the second part. 80% of my tiller is done in floor tiller. It goes from floor tiller to near full brace for me. Its usually about 10 pounds over at that point so I keep the limbs very smooth from that point on. No heavy rasping.
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+1 Pat B for me. Long string only briefly, just to get a sense that all is ok, then to low brace.
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I floor tiller. Then I go to long string tiller. Then I string it and tiller it.
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/index.html
Jawge
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I don’t necessarily use the same method or a fixed procedure for every bow I build, because they’re not all the same design or made from the same material (staves, saplings, boards, etc.). But here’s a little insight that may help some of the newer bowyers avoid mistakes I’ve made (some of them more than once…or twice).
First – Don’t be misled by the two pictures of Ron Hardcastle in TBB-1, pg. 258. He is apparently only demonstrating the form or stance he uses for flood tillering. The bow he is holding is a “finished” bow; nowhere near the stiffness of a fresh stave. Those pictures have cost me six bows! I stayed with the floor tillering process until I had the limbs bending as much as he did. By the time I did everything else to make them right, they were too weak for my purposes.
Second – If you are holding the bow tip on a fairly solid anchor point (notch in the floor, rubber mat, carpet, etc.), it is very easy to apply too much force on the limbs, and over stress a hinge or other weak spot. You should only push hard enough to see a flaw in the bend, and not go beyond 3 to 5 inches of tip movement, depending on the desired poundage.
Third - Several folks have suggested (and published) that a similar weight “finished” bow be used to compare relative poundage during floor tillering. To be on the safe side, I think you would be better served by using a finished bow that’s about 10 pounds heavier.
Lastly – When you’re new at floor tillering, it’s difficult to hold the bow in an awkward position, push the thing hard enough to get it to bend, try to sight down the limb looking for something wrong, and at the same time, compare it to the other limb! Again, I found out the hard way, just worry about one limb at a time – get it bending smoothly ASAP, and don’t try for floor tillering symmetry until you’ve made about 100 bows – or at least a bunch.
Most people do what works for them, and they learn that by doing different things and trying different methods. I think Ken Villars holds the bow in front of his body, supports the tip with the end of his boot, and pulls towards himself. He might have a little better view of the limb curvature, but he cautions about the possibility of personal injury.
I hope this helps…
H
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So it sounds to me like half of you tiller while the biw is strung? Or am i missunderstanding?
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I tiller while the bow is strung once i get to low brace, i don't unstring and restring
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I tiller while the bow is strung once i get to low brace, i don't unstring and restring
handy info right there... i didn't know that could be done...
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I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ but this was my original post
"Does floor tillering accomplish anything other than getting a stave down to a workable size? Is any harm done by putting a stave on the tree a little early?"
Can we try again? :D
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I figure so long as your not reefing on it with the long string it is fine
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It's all a matter of preference...
The stave doesn't care whether you are flexing it by hand or by string... as long as you don't over bend it.
You can get it ready to put on the tiller by floor tiller, careful measurement, feel, luck or whatever... it doesn't make a jot of difference!
At some point you have to flex the bow a bit to see if it is bending evenly.... do it with a long string or on the floor... it doesn't matter in the slightest.
Personally I do very little floor tillering as I think it's easier to see it looking square on with it on the tiller.
The advantage with floor tillering is it is immediate, you don't have to mess with strings... but that's it.
If anyone disagrees with this please send your objections to Mr J W Halverson :laugh: ::)
Del
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DC the answer to your question is NO. ;) :) Guess I don't build THEE bow, ??? cause I use a tiller stick to brace the to then tiller tree. :)
Pappy
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I do little floor tillering, and on some bows I dont do any at all, but rather, go to the tree early with a string the same length as the bow, where I can more precisely judge limb strength relative to one another and the archer's holds on bow and string. A single, short pull on the rope can tell me which limb is stronger, relatively speaking. Floor tillering can't do that. I begin making adjustments then, before it can even be braced.
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DC the answer to your question is NO. ;) :) Guess I don't build THEE bow, ??? cause I use a tiller stick to brace the to then tiller tree. :)
Pappy
You know what I meant ol' man! ;) If you go yanking on it too soon it causes problems. Sure it will still make a "A" bow, but "THEE" bow has to be bent with care from the start. Low set tillering is key.
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You calling me old ??? :-\ O ya I am. ;) :) You are right but either method if used properly will work just fine. :)
Pappy
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Yes, for me it is the initial stages of getting the limb to bend so it does accomplish something.
Jawge
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Is "THEE" an acronym I missed, or a typo "THE"? Or are you all actually saying "you" bow, in which case I don't get it either...
SOM
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You didn't miss anything, Its just a way to compare any old bow to a really slick bow. No biggy, nothing derogatory, no offense to anybody. Just my way of separating to things that fling arrows. One is better than the other.
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To answer your original question....No it will not hurt to use the tree early on in the process, just don't overstress it.
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I knew what pearl meant, and I agree. Del summed it up pretty well also. The key is in not over stressing any part of the working limb from the get go. Some will accomplish that one way and others another, but the end result winds up the same. For a newbie, skipping any one of these steps can lead to a less than ideal outcome. For the guy that has it figured out, it matters little HOW he gets there, only that he has finessed good tiller into the bow from step #1. Skipping certain steps to early is usually just a matter of impatience on the part of new folks (ask me how I know? Guilty).
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Thanks guys. I have trouble seeing the bend when floor tillering. I use a bow length string and don't flex it on the tree more than the draw weight. I just thought there might be some other reason for floor tillering. Happy now :D :D
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Thanks guys. I have trouble seeing the bend when floor tillering. I use a bow length string and don't flex it on the tree more than the draw weight. I just thought there might be some other reason for floor tillering. Happy now :D :D
Forgot to say that what I do a lot is put it in a vise and bend it so I can look at the bend from several angles. It really helps.
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I tiller while the bow is strung once i get to low brace, i don't unstring and restring
handy info right there... i didn't know that could be done...
It works for me to. Unbracing and re-bracing is a pain...... >:D
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no harm is done putting the bow on the tree with the long string early,, if you are gently bending it,, you are just trying to get it to bend even so when you do string it,, the stress is even on the stave,,
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DC in reading TBB-#1 John Strunk explains about making Yew longbows, where he talks bout exactly that. He said he likes floor tillering to start as it helps the wood to "learn" to bend
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If your having trouble seeing and feeling the the distribution of the bend while floor tillering you can always view it in front of a full length mirror. Thats how I started and it helped me to get a feel for it and now I rarely go to the tiller tree for long or short string tillering. Once I get to low brace I'll tiller by watching thickness taper and hand drawing in front of a mirror. Like what was said before choose the method your comfortable with as long as you don't over stress the bow.
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Well, not to be a wiseacre because 99% of the people on here build better and prettier bows than I'll ever build. I'm an amateur who is still working on crafting "thee" bow.
Can someone please explain how going from floor tiller to low bracing is a low stress, low set way to tiller? PD or anyone? Keep in mind that to me a stave with 3" of reflex that turns out even has 3" of set.
I would think that going from floor tiller to long string tillering to low brace is low stress, provided the bowyer aims for a good bending of the limbs and a stave weight no more than 15# over final target weight.
I think long string tillering has a place in a bowyers tool bag, at least it does in mine.
Let's have a rational, logical discussion. :)
Jawge
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Jawge, I'm with you. I do use the long string. Often it's just long enough to make sure the limbs are bending evenly enough to go to low brace safely. I am however really reluctant to suggest that this way is the best way. It's the way I do it. It's the way I show newbies how to do it as well. My bows as a rule fair very well in taking little set. It's something I shoot for. But the guy who showed me the ropes has never used a long string, ever. His bows are tillered every bit as well, if not better than mine. Lot's of ways to get there, and I have only a handful of answers to the many questions out there.
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Slimbob, I agree. There is more than one way to bring a bow to tiller.
Better bowyers than I'll ever be don't use the long string.
I just want a rational as to why not using the long string is better.
Jawge
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I know some have said that the long string gives a false reading because of the string angle, but that doesn't float with me as I am not using it for anything other than getting a bow to brace. String angle matters little at that point. Good question and I too am interested in the answers that folks give.
Might get more responses with a new post.
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Yes, gets a bow to brace at a proper weight if weight is monitored. Length of long string not an issue with me either.
I am interested too.
Jawge
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To answer your original post, yes it accomplishes something, as far as putting it on the tree early it's pretty safe unless ya overstress it, without floor tillering you aren't going to get much flex on the long string imo
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I tiller while the bow is strung once i get to low brace, i don't unstring and restring
Of course this is accomplished only after floor tiller the statement above was answering a reply about leaving the bow strung while tillering
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For long string guys: When you long string tiller on a tree. How do you decide where to remove wood? Do you quickly flex it, spy it, mentally mark it and remove wood and repeat. Or, do you pull it to X distance, lock it down, run a gizmo or straight edge up and down a few times, then mark it, then remove wood?
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I do it the first way, quick look and then remove a little wood. I would almost say that I use the long string to "floor tiller" on the tree. As soon as it's bending enough I low brace it. All without going over the draw weight, of course.
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It's all just variations of the same thing. Floor tillering is mainly about checking to see if the stave is flexing enough to bend with a string on it.
It's not doing something for the stave that isn't going to get done anyway.
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I'm getting the impression that as long as it bends like you want it and you don't over stress it, it doesn't matter how you get there.
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Of course.
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Pearl. I go to the tiller stick first. Get the limb tips moving a couple inches evenly. Mark the limbs while locked in, and remove wood. Exercise it a little, and then check it on the stick at that same distance, and get it right before advancing any farther. I don't go to the tree until I'm 15 inches or so. By then it's pretty much fine tuning. Then drawing by hand to finish it.
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No t stick for me, PD. No locking down the rope and pulley either.
I flex it and mark it. Let it down. Remove wood.
I don' pull past 10" and don't pull over target weight.
It takes me hours to get to that 10" and target weight.
When I do, I string it at a low brace of 2-3".
Jawge
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My point from the start was simple. We all know holding a bow at any distance for any amount of time breaks the wood down, especially before its ready to work that hard. So, whatever method you use, do it quick and don't flex and hold a bow until your sure its even. In my opinion all these little tricks, like this, add up to WOW! when your done with it. We've all shot bows that look like the next, but sure don't shoot like it.
My THEE bow and A bow comment was not meant to be offensive, seems it was to a few. We all know, for example, you can take a stick of osage and beat the crap out of it while learning/building and still have "A" bow in the end. But done right, whatever route you take, it can be "THEE" bow.
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I think that we do whatever it takes to see the bows bend. Most of the time floor tillering is all I need to get a bow to brace. I don't usually have to bend it much. If the stave has a lot of character or I am not all that comfortable with a design I am building I go to the tiller tree once I get it bending a little bit on floor tiller. I have a variation of a tiller stick I use where I rest the tips on rollers and pull down on the handle with a crank for recurves or highy reflexed bows. I can scrape it right on the press and then just push the handle area up and down to excersize it a bit.
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I should have said that I flex it, let it down and mark it. Then remove wood. Jawge
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I pretty much floor tiller a bow with my thumb and finger, looking how it bends too of course. I run it down the limb to check for even taper.Thickness tiller, unless your doing an extreme pyramid design. I flex the limbs enough so they are where they will be at brace. the bow at this point is usually 8-10 pounds over weight. If neccessary, I heat temper it at this point. After that I futz with floor tiller again making sure everything is even and the same on both limbs and brace it. from there its just a matter of finessing the tiller and bringing it down a couple pounds. I dont like using the long string because I think it doesn't give the true bend. because you have more leverage on the fades. Works for me.
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The outer and mid outer limbs appear to be stronger than they really are on a long string.
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I'm a complete rookie, only built 8 bows, all with red oak, but, the last couple I have done, I have been able to go from floor tiller to brace height and the short string. you can also kind of feel the bow bend while it is in the vice to know if it is flexible enough to put on a short string.
I am probably doing it wrong, but I understood that the long string was used just to get it to bend enough to put it on a short string and to eliminate any major flaws (hinges or stiff spots) and it seems like (at least in my limited experience) that you can get to that point while in the vice and with a floor tiller without having to use a long string.
I am curious though about the comment on tillering while the bow is strung. I have thought about doing that, but had not read that you could so was being conservative and unstringing each time I saw I needed to work on an area.
Dave
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Dean Torges does some final scraping while the bow is strung in his "Hunting the BBO Bow" DVD. It works nice as long as you don't need to get at the tips.
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You can use a scraper almost flat and scrape right up to the string if you need to.
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Once the string is on it, and I can reach the areas I need, I keep it strung. Scrape, exercise and check it. No need to unstring as long as your careful. Cutting the string being the biggest setback.
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My scraper is worn down to about 1 1/4 wide, fits nicely on a strung bow 8)
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My scraper is worn down to about 1 1/4 wide, fits nicely on a strung bow 8)
Mine is 7/8" :D An old metal bandsaw blade. I like it because its comfortable to use one handed.
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I've tillered with the stave strung particularly to get the bending to start at the end of the fades. Be careful not to nick the string. Jawge
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cool,
Seems like I am always learning something new on this site.
I will give tillering while strung a try next time
Thanks
d
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I floor tiller just enough to get the limbs flexing and feeling like they are of equal strength. My long string is just long enough to slip over the nocks. Its like a bow with a zero brace height. As long as things are looking good with it I keep shortening the string as I go until its braced. The important thing is getting the limbs bending evenly and not stressing any portions of the bow by bending them to much or for to long. I suggest trying both ways out and seeing what works best for you. Just don't stay with the long string for to long. You will end up with a 35# bow instead of a 50# bow. I have made that mistake before.
Since I started paying more attention to the limb thickness taper tillering has gotten a lot easier for me. Once I get a gradual and even taper its just a matter tweaking a few stiff spots and reducing weight.
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I admit I am rubbish at making bows, but, the past four years tinkering with bow making has taught me that I can floor tiller almost anything to first brace by making sure the whole bow limb is bending correctly before even putting the string on. I dont even need to use a long string now, by making sure the whole limb is bending just right using floor tiller before you even reach for a tiller string was my eureka moment between all the crap bows I made and now the semi-crap bows I can make! :P
Training your eye through practice to floor tiller, makes the difference between someone who gets lucky now and again with making a half decent bow and someone who can consistently make good shooters, deffo a skill worth cultivating if you take your bow making serious.
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Lots of good info here. Thanks for posting this guy's! Patrick