Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Wooden Spring on February 02, 2015, 09:56:14 am
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OK, this is kindof a follow up to my earlier questions on faceted tillering. The faceted tillering method worked, but as I shaved down the belly of the bow, it was floor tillered when the bow was 5/8" thick consistent thickness, so I've decided to just rough cut my bows at that thickness, then the tillering process can be handeled quickly with a random orbital sander and 60 grit paper... MUCH easier that way...
Anyway, the resultant bow was hickory backed white oak. The white oak was beautiful quarter sawn, but my hickory was a P.O.S.
I was experimenting with a few things though, so in the end I figured it didn't really matter.
1-1/2" wide from fades to mid-limb, then tapered to 1/2" nocks. Purpleheart tip overlays. It was about 5/8" thick at the fades, tapering to around 3/8" at the nocks, and pulled an easy 35# at 28". It was a really fast shooter too! (Sorry no pics or video there, I didn't want to get too attached to it since I was going to be destruction testing it)
Since I haven't used white oak before, I decided to do a break-test. As you can see from the "Not Split" to the "Split" pictures, it took a LOT of bend before the crappy hickory gave up. The white oak, although it took a lot of set, it only showed minor compression fractures.
Well, chalk this one up to one of the "GREAT" woods to use...
Cheers!
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:o wow! no backing?
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It was backed with a 1/8" strip of hickory, but there was grain issues with it, which is why I chose to use that particular piece for destruction testing.
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I'm sure I missed my calling - I should have went to work for Underwriter's Laboratories. I learn more from destruction testing that I ever get out of wood tables or math formulas. I guess that's my inner architect trying to resurface...
It's been said that the best way to determine if a wood will make a good bow is simply to make a bow out of it. That's sure right!
"If you ain't breakin' you ain't makin'!"
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Crazy! :o
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Agreed. White oak is a very good bow wood. Jawge
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...and in my experience a hickory backing doesn't have to be perfect. I have made quite a few bows with hickory backings with grain runoffs and all sorts of grain violations and configurations and never had a hickory backing fail.
It is too bad you don't enjoy the tillering process enough to take your time without using power tools. Tillering slow and steady and watching the bow beginning to bend and learn how to bend and recover is the part of the process I love the most about building wood bows.
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I don't think you can praise a wood that's backed with another.
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It is too bad you don't enjoy the tillering process enough to take your time without using power tools. Tillering slow and steady and watching the bow beginning to bend and learn how to bend and recover is the part of the process I love the most about building wood bows.
100% agree
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...and in my experience a hickory backing doesn't have to be perfect. I have made quite a few bows with hickory backings with grain runoffs and all sorts of grain violations and configurations and never had a hickory backing fail.
It is too bad you don't enjoy the tillering process enough to take your time without using power tools. Tillering slow and steady and watching the bow beginning to bend and learn how to bend and recover is the part of the process I love the most about building wood bows.
Oh, I do enjoy the process, but I've worked with power tools in the woodshop ever since I was a boy in my dad's workshop. I just don't really know the BEST way to use hand tools... I'm getting to know them a little bit though. For instance, my nocks are all done with hand tools. The problem is that since I was trained on power tools, it's all I really know, when I pick up a hand tool I really have to think about how to use it properly.
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I don't think you can praise a wood that's backed with another.
Sure you can!
Families come together from all walks of life and from different backgrounds, bringing their own distinct personalities together to make one beautiful cohesive mix. Why can't bows?
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very impressive thank you for testing!
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WOW!!!
I knew white oak is good.... but not THAT good....
Will a white oak board make a good unbacked bow if the grain is iffy? I heard hickory can withstand a serious grain run off..., is white oak the same?
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WOW!!!
I knew white oak is good.... but not THAT good....
Will a white oak board make a good unbacked bow if the grain is iffy? I heard hickory can withstand a serious grain run off..., is white oak the same?
I guess like anything, it depends on what "iffy" means. I always get quarter sawn stuff because it's really easy to get the growth rings to run end to end. With something like that, it'll make an unbacked bow no problem. I used a hickory back in this particular bow ONLY because I wanted to glue in some reflex. The wood didn't actually need it.
Have you got any pictures?
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I don't think you can praise a wood that's backed with another.
Agreed. We just went thru this whole debate with ERC. Alone, it's a risk. Backed, it's transformed.
White oak is good bow wood, but backed with hickory changes it. I also think white oak is a much better tension strong backing wood than belly wood.
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I don't think you can praise a wood that's backed with another.
Agreed. We just went thru this whole debate with ERC. Alone, it's a risk. Backed, it's transformed.
White oak is good bow wood, but backed with hickory changes it. I also think white oak is a much better tension strong backing wood than belly wood.
So, if indeed that is the case, then using the same quarter sawn white oak to back a belly of white oak (in order to glue in reflex) should make a good bow as well. I've done that with hickory with good results.
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I don't think you can praise a wood that's backed with another.
Agreed. We just went thru this whole debate with ERC. Alone, it's a risk. Backed, it's transformed.
White oak is good bow wood, but backed with hickory changes it. I also think white oak is a much better tension strong backing wood than belly wood.
+1....You've only shown how far your piece of hickory will bend...not the white oak...if you wanna know how good your white oak is then bend it unbacked.
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Agreed. We just went thru this whole debate with ERC. Alone, it's a risk. Backed, it's transformed.
White oak is good bow wood, but backed with hickory changes it. I also think white oak is a much better tension strong backing wood than belly wood.
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+1....You've only shown how far your piece of hickory will bend...not the white oak...if you wanna know how good your white oak is then bend it unbacked.
Agreed, heck a good piece of white oak will out bend hickory
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Tim Baker wrote that white oak brakes after hickory in bend tests. I wonder if that's the reson white oak tends to take more set?
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;) This is exactly why I started doing about as many white oak backings as hickory backing. The bonus is that they are both beautiful, but visually quite different.
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There's a big difference between good white oak and bad white oak. Overdried, thin ringed, and iffy grain have killed 4 of my white oak bows all from different boards. 2 survivors: one thin ringed but backed with brown paper and one selfbow with solid rings and straight grain. If I make any more from white oak it'll be from staves.
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The test was interesting but testing to failure has little to do with bows. Failure is starting to occur when the bow starts taking set. Just because the hickory broke forst does not mean it was the first to fail. The white oak may have crushed long before the hickory actually broke. Bubby made a bow of hickory backed paduak. The bow came out nice because he used the wood within its limits. P aduak is known to chrysal if overstrained. So I would say testing to destruction won't give you anything useful. Don't feel bad I used to do it all the time LOL.
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I have tested to failure many times, ,but I dont think I was intending to test :) :)
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The test was interesting but testing to failure has little to do with bows. Failure is starting to occur when the bow starts taking set. Just because the hickory broke forst does not mean it was the first to fail. The white oak may have crushed long before the hickory actually broke. Bubby made a bow of hickory backed paduak. The bow came out nice because he used the wood within its limits. P aduak is known to chrysal if overstrained. So I would say testing to destruction won't give you anything useful. Don't feel bad I used to do it all the time LOL.
I've never been able to build a bow that hasn't taken set... But then, I had been under the impression that as long as the set wasn't excessive to the point that it slowed the bow down to a point of being an unacceptable shooter, then it really doesn' harm the bow. I mean, isn't someone's quote: "set happens..."
Sure, our goal is to avoid as much set as possible - we heat treat, glue in reflex, etc., but if we're looking to make a bow without any set, aren't we striving for that which is unobtainable?
And for that matter, what does set really tell us? Was some aspect of the wood itself being "not right?" Was it a poor design? Was it a poor execution of construction? Or is it just something that happens?
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Yes, they all take set but at some point if it becomes excessive we might decide to call a bow failed even though it didn't break. The point is that testuing to failure is for structural engineering, bows have a different standard.
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I've made more than a few selfbows from white oak and it is pretty darn indestructible. Jawge
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Hackberry will bend even further than that 8)
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I think that this test just shows how well hickory does in tension. Try the same thing with a white oak self bow, no backing.
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All this talk of using hickory with run-offs is making me cringe!!! ;)
I used to think the same....oh it's hickory ,it'll be ok.
Well after making many elb's with hickory backs and typically ipe bellies has made me think otherwise. All these bows taught me that hickory WILL fail at grain violations. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow but you have to be aware that all you are relying on to keep it together is the interlocking nature of the fibers.....this strength compared to uncut fibers strength isn't even in the same ballpark. Backings with violations may be fine on wider, flat backed flatbows but a crowned back and very compression resistant bellies soon show the error in using violated hickory. Trust me on this one!
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I think that this test just shows how well hickory does in tension. Try the same thing with a white oak self bow, no backing.
Okay...
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I have NEVER heard hickory called crappy....gut
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Howard that one looks like cupids bow.Pretty cool. How much set did that one take?
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It took a little over an inch. Not a real heavy weight - I think it draws just a shade under forty pounds. White oak is tension strong as any kind of wood you can think of and if you give it a good toasting of the belly, it makes a good bow. I have only used white oak staves and have never seen a need to back one. I got on a white oak kick for a while and thought it was the best bow wood in the world. After a while though, I saw that, for me anyway, it does seem to take some set, after a lot of shooting. Our woods are full of osage orange, and it really doesn't get any better than that to me. I don't have to heat temper it, unless i just want to, it doesn't want to take as much set, it lasts forever, it is pretty much impervious to weather, it is a beautiful yellow color that just gets better with age, it is tension strong as hell, ...... it , it.... oh, I forgot. This post is about white oak. My bad. :D