Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: Lucasade on January 19, 2015, 03:00:39 am
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So I thought I should get off my backside and start making bows rather than just talking about it...
I've got a hazel stave that I cut at a client's house which was about 4" diameter and 82" long. I'm hoping to get about 70lbs from it. Unfortunately due to laziness (didn't seal it) I had to cut 7" off one end because it cracked really badly after I split the log.
(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj535/lucasade2/imagejpg1_zpsc9f6b41c.jpg)
Anyway it's now 75" long and reduced down to the central pith the whole length which I'm going to use as the centreline to mark it out. I found a thread on Paleoplanet where the poster made a 75-90lb bow using 1 1/2" width at the centre tapering to 1" at 6" from the tips then tapering to 1/2" tips. I'm thinking because I've lost a lot of length I should go wider to compensate so I've measured it out 2" at the centre tapering to 1 1/2" at 6" from the tips. Does this make sense or will it now be too wide?
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Depends what draw length you want...
If you want 32" I think you will struggle with the bow that short.
I'd expect to be 40mm wide minimum.
Del
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I was worried about that. Would 30" draw be achievable?
And are you saying 40mm as far out on the limbs as possible or would 6" taper to the nocks work?
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I was worried about that. Would 30" draw be achievable?
And are you saying 40mm as far out on the limbs as possible or would 6" taper to the nocks work?
I meant 40mm at the grip and for about say 10" either side then tapeing to about 20mm at the tips initially.
The tips are then tapered and narrowed to 1/2" once the bow is coming back say 24" and the horn nocks fitted.
I've not made a Hazel warbow yet... I had one well on the way but the wood was iffy and it sanapped at about 80# at 26" >:(
http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/two-bows-primitive-yew-and-hazel-warbow.html (http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/two-bows-primitive-yew-and-hazel-warbow.html)
Del
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Okay that makes sense, thank you.
I saw you're having a run of bad luck lately - at least you tell us about it so we can learn too!
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If you get a good stave hazel is very good bow wood. I once made a too short 'test' bow out of it and have repeatedly pulled it an inch or two too far and it still springs straight back into an inch of reflex....and it is kept in the garage because I never shoot it!
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It was well heat treated.
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This one's going to be heat treated if it gets that far ::)
I took the width down to Del's dimensions this evening. Tomorrow I'll reduce the thickness towards where it needs to be (which I'll figure out sometime) then put it on top of my wardrobe to finish seasoning. I'll try and put a photo up tomorrow so you can all tell me where I've gone wrong...
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Here's pictures - first marked up:
(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj535/lucasade2/imagejpg1_zps1c06130a.jpg)
And nearly all reduced:
(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj535/lucasade2/imagejpg2_zpsa2c2bb12.jpg)
After strapping the Workmate to the kitchen wall the drawknife works much better, but my wife isn't happy about the damage to the paintwork!
Anyway, all feedback welcome. :)
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Looking good, I think you can ignore any twist with Hazel (and a bit of run off) as its so homogeneous.
If you make a shave horse you won't regret it. It's so much easier than trying to use a workmate.
Del
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Shave horse is on my to do list, when I can scavenge the bits together.
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This might be a stupid question....
Are you going to turn it over later? As in, have you marked out the belly of the bow so you can follow the pith when shaping, or are you intending on that pith line being the back of the bow?
I've never seen anybody rough a bow out from the belly side, that's all!
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Its easier to draw on a clean white sawn surface than on shiny Hazel bark...
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Surely the best option is to strip the bark, and lay out the profile on what will be the back?
You can get all sorts of pins and stuff on the back that you can't see from the belly, which often need a rejiggle of the profile to avoid or centre them. Last thing you want with white woods is to cut out the final width profile, flip it over and find a load of dodgy pins on the edge of the bow.
I am speaking from the perspective of ash and holly having never worked with hazel, but I assume it's similar?
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Best thing you can do with the back is leave it alone... the bark will pop off in it's own good time.
The knots in Hazel are few and fine.
IF you have a big knot, you just go and cut another bit as it's so plentiful... use the first bit for something smaller or experimental or firewood.
Del
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I marked it up like this so I had a good centre line to work from (as featured in the Bowyer's Diary at some point ::) ) because I've never had to mark up wood following the grain before. The plan now is to make sure the edges are at right angles to the belly before reducing the thickness. I'll obviously check the width again after it's seasoned and before tillering. So far I've only found two knots in the entire half log and they should both disappear when I get the thickness down.
I realise that all of the marking will disappear when I start reducing the thickness so I've kept the template paper with all the measurements. As I get better I will probably do it all differently and more efficiently!
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Sounds good!
Looking at the stave I'd have probably just laid it out straight, rather than following the grain. It's stuff like sudden kinks or larger bends that you need to worry about, as compared to a long gentle wavy line. Your way is undoubtedly stronger and more reliable however. It just means you might be spending ages removing bends with heat.
Then again, you might not need to touch it. It looks like the tips and handle are damn close to lining up already.
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The bows on here that I like the best follow the grain and have some wavy edges - to me it shows it came from a tree and not a plank. I don't mind spending ages on something I enjoy doing - especially as heat treating for me will be sitting in front of a fire. :)
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You're so primitive :P
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It's not entirely voluntary - we do have a heat gun but it belongs to my wife's chocolate business and she's banned me from using it for non-food purposes >:( Still, when life gives you lemons :)
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I took the thickness down last night:
(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj535/lucasade2/image.jpg5_zpstytyhtjm.jpg)
(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj535/lucasade2/image.jpg2_zpsq1x1mpro.jpg)
I used the thickness measurements for a 90lb bow on the Norwegian Warbow site, which I thought would be a good starting point (31mm in the centre, 12mm at the nocks) as I am aiming for less than that. It has started bending on a floor tiller. It's now been weighed and put on top of my wardrobe to finish seasoning.
At the moment one limb is 1" longer than the other, which has all the reflex. I'm intending the longer limb to be the upper one but would it be better for the reflexed limb to be the top one? Or doesn't it matter?
I also noticed a couple of potential problem areas on the belly which I would appreciate any advice on please:
(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj535/lucasade2/image.jpg4_zpsvw8m0b9a.jpg)
(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj535/lucasade2/image.jpg3_zps25scqu3y.jpg)
The intention is to heat treat the belly, which presumably is best done mid way through tillering so that I don't just scrape off all the heat treated layer?
Oh, and I've sorted my shave horse problem too...
(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj535/lucasade2/image.jpg1_zpsk02aqfqc.jpg)
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I'd probably the problem areas for now as they look pretty minor.
The small knot on the belly can maybe be picked out if there is loose stuff, but no point until after heat treat.
Yes, with heat treating, get it flexing to maybe half draw first.
Put the middle in the middle, don't over think it or just ignore the 1" difference... it hardly matters on a bow that long.
Similarly don't define which limb is which until it's 90% finished. I've flipped several bows quite late in the build, and some have been flipped one way then back again.
I once had Robert Hardy tell me by bow was 'upside down' because the lower limb looked weak. I popped off the string and showed him it was just natural deflex... you can make up your own mind. But bear in mind the lower limb is usually a bit shorter and thus it has to bend tighter, if it starts reflexed relative to the top limb, then it's having to bend even tighter still. So my bow may have look odd, but the lower limb wasn't over stressed.
If you want to match the limbs a bit better, then during heat treat, you could take out the slight reflex, or add a bit to the other limb.
Del
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Sounds like I may have been over analysing - I was thinking lower limb needs to be stiffer therefore use the shorter one. I'll wait and see what happens during heat treating!
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Sounds like I may have been over analysing - I was thinking lower limb needs to be stiffer therefore use the shorter one. I'll wait and see what happens during heat treating!
Yeah, sound like you had it arse about face.
If the arrow pass is 1" above true centre (which is typical) and the grip is 4" long that gives 3" of grip below the centre and 1" (plus a bit for the arrow above centre. So the lower limb is automatically 2" shorter than the upper.
But there are no hard and fast rules, you can shift the grip and arrow pass to give the best tiller and smoothest shot. It makes most difference on short bows. But just reversing the bow on the tiller can make it look better (or worse!)
Del
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Okay that makes sense - thank you.
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Del is giving sterling advice but those knots look decidedly dodgy to me. The only problems i've had with hazel have been chrysals where there are knots on the belly. Even the remnants of pin knots have caused the rest of the belly to chrysal at that point....these problems have been on bows pushed to the limit but....
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Would you recommend picking them out and filling with superglue? Or do you think they may be too much for this weight?