Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: loefflerchuck on January 08, 2015, 02:15:39 am

Title: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: loefflerchuck on January 08, 2015, 02:15:39 am
T.M Hamilton in his book Native American Bows wrote about this bow he studied in the early 1970s. The bow was listed as red cedar with a sinew backing making up more than 50% of the bows thickness. It was obtained in 1869 from the Flathead tribe. He says the bow was built along classic elkhorn lines but with a wooden belly. "The bows reflex is flawless" he says. He also doubts this bow was ever used and "Made with the idea of selling it to one of the officers stationed at Ft Colville. He doubted the bow could maintain the reflex with a cheap juniper core. I wanted to test this.
  This is one of 5 snakeskin backed bows I have seen, all from the northern basin (idaho, Montana, Oregon).  The bow in the US National Museum is 43.5" long. Mine is 47 3/4, 46.5 n t n. Other than that I used the same measurements of the real bow. 2.85cm wide in the center, 2.3 cm mid limb, 1.5 cm below the nock. I used rocky mt juniper 3/4 sapwood 1/4 heartwood about. I backed it with 9 layers of elk sinew. 3 layers at a time over 3 weeks. When all this was seasoned the sinew makes up a little over 1/3 the thickness of the bow. I would like to examen the real bow and see if it is in fact more than 1/2 sinew or if it is just down the sides of a rounded back. I still plan on making a 50/50 bow of juniper and sinew to see how it works.
 To get to the bow:  46.5" ntn. 52# @ 24.5" The bow has a 3 3/4" reflex right after being unstrung and after a week unstrung it is still about the same. It is a sweet shooter. I am making a longer one for my 26" long draw.
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: loefflerchuck on January 08, 2015, 02:17:34 am
full draw
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: loefflerchuck on January 08, 2015, 02:21:53 am
3 ply sinew string
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: medicinewheel on January 08, 2015, 03:00:28 am
Beautiful bow!
Does the back of the core follow a ring?
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: adams89 on January 08, 2015, 03:37:26 am
very very nice bow, !! how do these shoot, are the fast? durable?
really beautiful!!!!
I'm building a 5 curve out of osage and i would love to hear some reviews of this style of bow, really looks perfect in my eyes!
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: Pappy on January 08, 2015, 05:27:04 am
Nice work, beautiful bow. :)
   Pappy
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: Jodocus on January 08, 2015, 06:49:21 am
Excellent, very beautiful bow! Really spirited.

The striped tips are spot on, I love that detail and will eventually copy it  ;D

If juniper is cheap to you, you're real lucky. Where I live, juniper grows about a foot high.
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: Aaron H on January 08, 2015, 08:18:38 am
Beautiful Chuck, what kind of skins are those?
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: blackhawk on January 08, 2015, 08:21:21 am
Nice one chuck :)
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: osage outlaw on January 08, 2015, 08:33:17 am
That's an amazing bow.  9 layers of sinew, WOW!   How long did you let the sinew cure before flexing the bow?
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: half eye on January 08, 2015, 08:46:13 am
Your work is allways superior but this one is extra special, sir
rich
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: burchett.donald on January 08, 2015, 09:15:03 am
 Absolutely awesome Chuck, You put the ''primitive'' in PA...I can only begin to understand the amount of work that goes into a bow of that caliber...Hats off sir 8)
                                                                                                            Don
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: Blaflair2 on January 08, 2015, 09:38:32 am
Well ur making urself another u might as well make one that draws out to 28" for me  O:)

Beautiful work, love indian style bows
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: Peacebow_Coos on January 08, 2015, 01:04:03 pm
Another beautiful replica piece chuck, you do great work sir
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: bradsmith2010 on January 08, 2015, 01:38:15 pm
very nice congrats
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: Parnell on January 08, 2015, 01:40:51 pm
Man, I really like that f/d.  Such a cool bow!
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: Traxx on January 08, 2015, 01:43:59 pm
Ive had a bow in my mind to make,for the last couple years.That bow right there,is exactly what was in my mind.
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: Tyke on January 08, 2015, 01:47:19 pm
Thats freakin awesome chuck. 8)
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: Onebowonder on January 08, 2015, 01:51:34 pm
So this looks like a case of MYTH BUSTED!  Apparently a Cheap ERC belly/Sinew backed bow can hold extreme reflex and be a real shooter.  Not that we know for any certainty that the artifact bow was either a real shooter or a tourist trinket, ...but there seems to be MUCH LESS reason to suppose that it was anything but a real and functional weapon.  BTW - Who would ever bother to lay up such a heavy bunch of Sinew on a trinket bow?  I'm guessing the guy that assumed such a thing had not ever spent time processing sinew, ...and had almost certainly not done so with primitive tools!

ERC loves compression work don't it!?  This is a very beautiful bow sir.

OneBow

Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: wizardgoat on January 08, 2015, 02:02:04 pm
Chuck! Thanks for finally posting this bow. I am currently copying this design as well.
I hope it turns out half as well as yours
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: IdahoMatt on January 08, 2015, 04:07:12 pm
That bow is flat out stunning.  Great job.  Love the authentic look
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: mullet on January 08, 2015, 04:43:09 pm
Another museum piece, Chuck, very nice.
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: Comancheria on January 08, 2015, 06:38:10 pm
Beautiful bow, Chuck.  Could you estimate how many actual
Elk tendons went into the layers?

Russ
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: Badly Bent on January 08, 2015, 06:48:29 pm
That bow is downright primitive cool! 8)
It looks perfect in every detail to these eyes Chuck, thanks for posting this beauty.
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: hammertime on January 08, 2015, 07:06:55 pm
That's a whole lots of sinew work ! Really sweet bow ! You make some amazing replicas!-Hammertime
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: JonW on January 08, 2015, 07:07:11 pm
Keep posting these bows Chuck. I really enjoy seeing them.
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: Chadwick on January 09, 2015, 12:18:13 am
With that bow as short as it is, why not have it bend through the handle?
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: loefflerchuck on January 09, 2015, 01:00:43 am
Thanks everybody. Medicinewheel: Yes the back follows one ring. It's probably not needed but I figure it does not hurt.
Adams: It will probably not set ant flight records but I am impressed with its arrow cast. I'm taking a few bows to the salt flats tomorrow to test. I'll bring this one too. Juniper dents easily so it is not as durable as harder woods, but I have 20 year old juniper sinew bows that shoot great.

Jodocus: I would never disrespect juniper like that. If you need some let me know.

Falcon: Montana rattler
Rich: Thanks, love your short bows too
Clint: The sinew seasoned for about 2-3 months.
Onebowwonder: Still need to make a 50/50 sinew bow.
Comancheria: I Used big elk tendons I get about an ounce of processed sinew from each tendon so it only took about 3
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: loefflerchuck on January 09, 2015, 01:09:21 am
Chadwick, Look at the braced profile and then the full draw. It's bending, but not enough to to make it a harsh shooter.
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: Drewster on January 09, 2015, 09:30:24 am
That is an impressively crafted bow and aesthetically pleasing too.  Really nice work Chuck.  Thanks for sharing with us.
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: Stringman on January 09, 2015, 10:05:37 am
Great attention to detail! Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: xpertbushman on January 09, 2015, 11:56:51 am
That sir is true craftsmanship. In your experience, how accurate are the bows that you have built?
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: jeffp51 on January 09, 2015, 05:41:46 pm
I Used big elk tendons I get about an ounce of processed sinew from each tendon so it only took about 3

Wait--you got nine layers of sinew from just 3 tendons?  I haven't done a sinew bow yet (want to, though) but I thought it would take much more than that.
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: loefflerchuck on January 09, 2015, 07:46:36 pm
JeffP keep in mind this bow is barely over an inch at the widest part and 47" long. I used 16-18",  thick leg tendons. That is just an estimate but I doubt it was more than 4
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: jeffp51 on January 10, 2015, 12:19:09 am
Wow.  I really want to try a juniper bow.  I have a stave/log--about 3 inches in diameter and not very much heartwood,   lots of knots, though.  I am not sure I can make it work.  Your bows are absolutely beautiful.  Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: Tyke on January 10, 2015, 03:15:48 am
That stave should work out for ya Jeff.thats how me and joe met chuck we took the staves to him to see what he thought of them.your was one of the ones that the bark pulled of straight.Chuck said it would probably make a fine bow. ;)
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: Tyke on January 10, 2015, 03:19:24 am
Chuck hows that steamer/boiler pan working out for ya?
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: loefflerchuck on January 10, 2015, 09:35:06 am
Love it Tyke. It's big enough to use for any bow straitening or twisting too.
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: loefflerchuck on January 11, 2015, 10:53:03 pm
Xpertbushman: I am more concerned with testing the performance of a 150 year old bow than making it better. I try to be as exact as possible in replication. That being said I knew this would be no flight shooting contender but it does have the shape of a good shooter. I took a bundle of new bows out to the salt flats for a test. It was an a inversion day and the humidity was 76% but not a breath of wind. I am not a flight shooter and used one light weight cane arrow of 317 grains and one cedar target arrow 26" long of 451 grains. The cane arrow shot 179 yards and the target arrow shot 175. Both draws were about 24" It was a one shot test.
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: loefflerchuck on January 11, 2015, 10:54:27 pm
Ratio of sinew to wood before the snakeskin
Title: Re: Flathead replica. Sinew with juniper core.
Post by: loefflerchuck on January 11, 2015, 10:57:41 pm
The real bow. This bow had more reflex and I believe the backing probably was thicker. The next one I make will test the more than 50% backing