Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: tom sawyer on January 17, 2008, 12:00:42 pm
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I got a roll of FF at the urging of a compadre (Mims goaded me into splurging on a roll). The strands are thinner than Dacron yet are stronger. I made a string or two with it and using the same number of strands, the strings sre pretty skinny. It causes a problem because even after serving my nocks don't want to hold on the served string.
My specific questions are as follows:
1) How many strands of FF do you use in a string for a 60lb bow?
2) What diameter of serving do you use to get a nice comfortable serving that fits nocks?
3) Do you add strands at the loops (Flemish) to prevent a skinny string from digging into your wood?
Thanks in advance. This is the final thread in my string trilogy. Not bad to think a little about strings once in awhile. Without them our bows would be spears.
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Lennie, I use 14 strands, heck 12 would do but you end up with a REAL skinny string. I use a .030 dia. serving to get the right diameter for knocks, you can double serve two (with smaller diam material), but you realy have to get the serving tight to stay in place. Never had a problem with the string digging into the wood.
BTW, Mims is the one that talked me into FF too ::)
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I had Fast Flight on a Turkish bow and it cut the string nock off the wooden siyah.
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I knew it had to be more than 0.022", thats the biggest I had and it wasn't enough. It was hard to fork over the cash for the high dollar stuff, and I still only have one color. But I guess the length of string on a spool is a lot more so you aren't really paying more per string, just a larger capital outlay up front. Still, David must have stock in Brownell or BCY or get some sort of bonus.
Whats the weather in AZ? You're going to be missing some balmy single digits this weekend. We did miss snow here at least.
I do think it might be wise to add some strands to the loops to avoid having it dig into the nocks. Maybe even some Dacron.
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Lennie, this is how I do my personal, and bows going to skilled archers, the rest get linen, b-50 or twisted rawhide...
1.10 on my bows, sometimes 8. You can always fatten the serving or the loop.
2. I will double the serving to fit a wide nock, but normally it's not a problem
3. I always use horn, antler, ipe, or something very tough to deal with this. Most wood nocks can't handle these strings, and usually will get sliced off.l
Often I will use a double timber hitch on my personal bows to keep the twists to a minimum as well. I also shape the nocks to fit the desired string. If I have a timber hitch on the bottom I shape it for fit this..
Glad you listened to Dave,Spectra is another favorite of mine as well, very quiet, and the guys at BCY think its the fastest material.
Using B-50 on performance wood bows is like putting a saddle on a cheetah ;)
Rich-
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I use 14 strands of FF, sometimes 15, for everything.
If you/I design the string grooves correctly, it won't cut into the wood. That hackberry bow had FF when I given it to ya. Can't imagine a wood softer than hackberry. Is it cut thru and ruined? Can't speak to how turkish bows string grooves are made, but I'd agree to be extree cautious where no experience is at hand, and the stakes are high. Have added strands up to 20 in the loops only for a (Fetrow) yew bow, for obvious reasons. Not sure it was justified. Have never had any problem, other than with mesquite overlay one time which was much softer than I expected. When in doubt, pad the loops and/or check frequently to build up ones comfort level. Have used mulberry, elm, ash, maple, other soft woods I can't remember, again without any hazard so far.
I use a double wrap of 40# (or 50#) Spiderwire braided fishing line for serving to fit 5/16 Bohning index nocks. If you'll hound the Walmart you'll see a spool (250 yards) eventually for $5, generally late fall but I'd look now before they switch back to summer stock. Have used "Remington" brand as well, $5 discount from Walmart. Same/same.
FF is good value in my view, notwithstanding having to find a combination of strands and serving to fit. I want to say either 12 and double wrap of Nylon ($4 a roll) or 18 and single wrap fits 5/16 Bohning as well. I expect you could speariment with Nylon and find a solution. You is a scientist after all, despite your "thumb abundant" reputation.
Can't believe you are just now getting around to figgering out how to fashion a suitable bow string.
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When you guys are referring to FF are you specifically using Fast Flight or is that generic for the non-stretch dyeema strings?
I use Dyna Flight 97 on all of my wood bows, some with overlays some without.
I'm relieved to hear I'm not the only one who doesn't routinely pad the loops since I've never had or seen a problem since I quit padding the loops.
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When you guys are referring to FF are you specifically using Fast Flight or is that generic for the non-stretch dyeema strings?
I use Dyna Flight 97 on all of my wood bows, some with overlays some without.
I'm relieved to hear I'm not the only one who doesn't routinely pad the loops since I've never had or seen a problem since I quit padding the loops.
I use actual Fast Flight. I too am relieved to see that more people are using it. I can use it with unpadded loops and no overlays on Cascara and that's soft wood.
Lennie,
I use 14 strands on my 83# longbow and double serve with the cheap, $2 generic serving. 12 strands would do it I'm sure. Haven't had any problems.
J. D.
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I use BCY 450plus which I think is similar to fastflight.
I have cut my strings down as thin as I dare and they are still basically double the strength they really need to be. 8 strands should be enough for a 200lb bow!
On flemish strings I add one 18 inch strand for each strand which seems to be plenty. I have doudle served the middle. Another thing that works is to add one of those nock points so the arrow sits below. The arrow can then be quite a llose fit and not fall off. A little silk or even dental floss will add a bit of fat to the nocking point (sealed with superglue) to get a better fit.
I made a two strand string a while back. That really does cut the fingers! Sings a real high note too!
Mark
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I mentioned Fastflight but I do think any of the new low-stretch string materials can be considered. Each of them probably has a slightly different strand diameter, so you'd have to find a recipe for any given combination of string and serving materials to get the right diameter of string.
I'd caution folks that the poundage of a bow does not equate to the pounds per strand on a string material. The pounds of force a string feels, is different and from what I recall it is maximal at brace height, goes through a low at half draw and rises again near full draw. In short, a material that has a breaking strenght of 30lb would not necessarily be "feeling" 30lb of tension on a 30lb bow. And while a 14 strand B50 string (14x30lb=420lb) is overkill on a 42lb bow, it isn't necessarily 10X that required. Just wanted to clear that up.
David, I've always made adequate strings. Just wanted to get my facts straight for using that roll of FF. And since I was having trouble getting a timber hitch to hold with the stuff (I don't know why), I thought I'd brush up on my double loop info.
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One old rule of thumb was to make the string 4 times bow weight. I like the one in TBB which says ten times the draw weight at 15 inches. I may be wrong, I keep on having to look it up as I forget each time I make a string. With this a string for a 50lb bow would need to have a breaking strain of 200lbs or so. Apparently the strain on the string is greatest at brace height and especially at the moment it is at brace height and just about to let go of the arrow, the strain on the bow greatest at full draw
B50 has a real strength of around 30 to 35lbs so in theory a string of six to eight strands should be strong enough. Trouble is it would stretch like anything so I guess strings were built up to reduce stretch and fit the nock. Now often people use a very very strong string material and in the same way make the string to fit the arrow nock. Now the string is totally non-stretch and enormously strong, too strong for the bow. I think this is why people said that fastlflight couldn't work on wooden bows because bows broke.
I bowyers knot should hold like anything. It took me a while to get them so I was happy with them. Mine weld themselves together and don't move at all now. I think what works for me is to wax the end of the string well, make sure it has a good tight twist, make sure I send the string the right way round the loop at least three times and then come back UNDER the knot when on the bow. Pull this tight by hand before stringing the bow and it should tighten up on itself when the bow is strung and then just stay put. A few shots and the loop will have made itself into one welded object that cannot move or come undone. tom, I think there is a right and a wrong way to tie this knot, one where the knot works against the twist like when doing the flemish twist on the string and holds itself together and maybe another way that tends to undo. Might be worth a little more experimentation?
Mark
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I know you have to run the tag end through the front of the lop, rather than wrapping around and coming in the back. I've only been wraping it around twice, and leaving the end sticking off the back side of the bow. I'll try a thrid wrap and pulling it under the knot, that sounds like it might work better. My bowyers knot works fine with Dacron but the Fast Flight seems to be too slick or something, or maybe its that the string is skinnier and this makes less surface area for gripping. Thanks for the rules of thumb, string info is interesting. Oh and I hope you get a good turnout at your bow festival next month, you did a great writeup and I surfed the website and the place looks fascinating.
I should really be getting into the Dyna Flight or other newest-of-the-new string materials. I can remember my compound days (5+ years ago?), fast flight was considered to be outdated and to have considerably more stretch than the new fibers.
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The fancy newer stuff can get downright pricey. I figure FF (FF+ is all you can actually buy today) is the best value.
450+ is fat like Dacron, hard (for me) to twist and fades dye like a big dog. But is strong as hell no question. I use 8 strands on my glass recurve. Most quiet setup I could find.
D97, prolly improved since I handled it, is real nice. Bettern FF but more expensive I think.
It's all prolly made outa the same material in different configs.
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I use 8 strands for bows up to 60#, 10 up to 80#, 12 for bows up to 100# and so on. On the real heavy bows of 150# and up I use 18 strands. On 8, 10 and 12 strand strings I just lay in some extra strands to beef up the loops and serving for the arrows nock
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So rookie question here. Would someone explain the benefits of using the fast flight caliber of string vs Dacron B50? I noticed someone mention quietness. I also would assume if its called fast flight that it is intended to help speed up the limbs ro should I say not slow them down as much. Am I correct? Does anyone know how much difference it can make in fps? Thanks in advance for the knowledge gained. Danny
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I have seen about 8 or 9 fps increase, but the big benifits are in my book, you have a longer lasting string, that gives any bow better manners.
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I use fastflight because it doesn't stretch. This gets me more clearance for less brace height and reduces handshock. And it's easier to work with imho.
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I started using it as a tillering string because it does not stretch like dacron.
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I was reading this and really wasn't interested until Dave said more clearance at low brace
and less shock,now you got my attention.I don't worry much about the speed but that might
make it worth it.I'll have to give it a try.See what you get if you just read on. ;DLasting longer
is always a good thing also. :)
Pappy
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Also the fact that it has little to no stretch means that it's actually easier to brace a bow. With dacron, because the string stretches so much on heavier bows, the string has to be shorter so you need to flex limbs more just to get the string on, This is a real pain when making heavy bows of 70# or more. With FF this problem becomes non existant
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This is sounding better all the time.I never even thought about ff till now,I love this place. :)
Pappy
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This is a great topic, Lennie. Like you, I recently bought a roll of fastflight, and winced at the cost. It is for a heavish 80 lb. longbow I am building for a friend. He wants self nocks, no horn nocks or overlays at all, would this be a problem with FF with osage? I doubt it, but want to get someone's opinion. Also, can I use the same serving thread I use with D50?
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Interesting additional info. This thread is a regular stome soup, I started it from nothing and you've all added some fine ingredients.
David, how does FF allow you to use a lower brace? I can't see how that would be.
Marc, excellent point. Bracing a bow does seem to be a place where you can easily get over-stressed if you are not vigilant about technique.
Dane, the usual serving materials seem to work just fine. In fact the stuff I use is a braided Spectra which is one of those low-stretch fibers anyway. I think Dynaflight 97 is a Spectra or a blend. And I have a friend who uses FF and makes super-small nocks on his osage bows, and has never had a problem. I think David has a point about shaping nocks/grooves to avoid rubbing.
Which is something I meant to ask for further details on, what sort of nock groove shapes minimize friction between wood and string? I've been making my nock grooves at slightly more than a 45 degree angle but I noticed this might not be ideal. I think more like a 30 degree angle, going to maybe 60 degrees in the part of the groove on the belly side. I suppose this would depend on length of bow though.
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It allows me more clearance with less brace height Lennie. Because it stretches less, it doesn't "follow thru" as much and slap my thumb/wrist when I shoot. The string doesn't decide how much brace height a bow "can" have. But a bow prefers not stranding as much bent for obvious reasons. On longer bows the diff between Dacron and low stretch is quite significant.
The bow decides how the string grooves should be fashioned, not an arbitrary angle or bow lenght. The string should lay nearly perfectly straight end to end when the bow is (properly) braced, and should be teardrop shaped to disperse the compression over as much material (wood) as possible, no high spots or abrupt angles.
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I've used FF strings on lots of bows with self-nocks and have not had a problem.
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What David said about low-stetch strings and brace height. I used to have a problem with the string slapping my arm at lower brace heights. That went away when I switched to FF strings.
no high spots or abrupt angles
Really important if you are using FF with self nocks. I carefully round the shoulders of my nocks so there are not sharp points for the string to catch.
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One more question I haven't heard discussed. Which is a better string when using FF, Flemish or continuous loop. I know you flight shoot guys have a preference so lets hear it. ;D Justin
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From a mass perspective, I'd think continuous loop would be lighter. You don't have double the strands in the 8" on each end like you have with Flemish loop. Mass comes at a premium out there too, although I suppose the string itself travels farther nearer the nocking point.
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In flight we have to use primitive string material, I normally prefer to use flemish even though contiuous is recomended. Difference is very very small. Next year I plan on using my primitive bows against the modern bows so I will be using fast flight as well. The ease of bracing high performance bows is the main reason I like the fast flight. Almost impossible with b 50 it stretches so bad. Steve
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I like endless with served loops on performance bows which go elsewhere for a couple reasons.
A served loop is a bit of protection to the string in case it bumps something abrasive..like a rock. And they do.
While its only a subtle mass advantage over a similar flemmish style string its there, and you also have the advantage of less twists per string and this adds up as well.. Even though you have to be quite skilled as an archer to notice.
The Asians had the best natural string material, silk, and they didn't make flemmish style strings for one very good reason. They didn't have to..A warbow flemmish string is identical to what I used to cleat my 20' work boat to the dock. there is a little give so it doesn't jerk the cleats on the boat when it rocks in the slip, and the same string had to stay together in battle since it was made out of linen which is good stuff, but it's not silk.
These materials aren't cheap, and you can get more strings out of a roll using endless style for your strings.
Often I use a double timber hitch on the bottom for my personal bows and this keeps the twists down and is easy to use when shooting in a new bow..no stretch issues to deal with.
Rich