Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Lee Lobbestael on December 16, 2014, 09:28:36 pm
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I got permissionto cut some osage from a neighbor down the road. After getting it home I realized that all of it had very thin rings. A good ring on this stuff is like thinner than a dime. What do you guys do about this? Just chase it very carefully? I don't want to back it
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Just take your time. I chased one the other day that was super thin. About like a credit card.
Seen one done at mojam that looked like paper stacked. In my opinion the thin ring stuff makes a snapper bow and the fades look awesome too. JMO Patrick
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i have a short thin ringed(like 1/32 at best) piece of osage that i plan on sinew backing but i have tried to get it down to a single growth ring, what i found to work best was a card scraper after i got the sapwood off. if your osage is like my piece there wont be much sapwood to take off.
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I'm in the middle of a similar dilemma. I have this osage stave shaped and beginning to floor tiller but I still haven't got it down to one ring. I posted pix of the stave last spring, its something like 30 or 31 rings in 1 inch. I'm to the point of just sanding it real good and applying sinew or a couple layers of something.
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Ok I'll just have to take my time I guess. I don't have a whole of experience with osage. I split it into staves and sealed the ends.
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Two years ago at the Tenn. Classic a guy and his father stopped to talk bows with me. The guys dad showed me his osage bow. The back was just swirls of paper thin ring violations. I looked it over closely to make sure I was seeing it right and I was. He said he sanded it very smooth and coated the back with super glue before putting the finish on the bow. He said it was his daily shooter and you could tell the bow had seen a lot of use. I was very impressed by it. From what I remember the bow was a flatbow style that was slightly over built. I'm guessing that is a good reason it was still holding together. I wish I had taken some pictures of it.
I have never tried this on a thin ringed stave but I would like to give it a shot one day.
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Wow That sure would make life easier! Anyone else try this?
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Suuuper thin ring osage is fairly common here in IL. I just scrape that ring with care and love, and then back it with rawhide. I have had several very carefully chased back rings fail on me in the bow building process with thin ring osage, so in order not to waste wood and my time I just back it now.
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Two years ago at the Tenn. Classic a guy and his father stopped to talk bows with me. The guys dad showed me his osage bow. The back was just swirls of paper thin ring violations. I looked it over closely to make sure I was seeing it right and I was. He said he sanded it very smooth and coated the back with super glue before putting the finish on the bow. He said it was his daily shooter and you could tell the bow had seen a lot of use. I was very impressed by it. From what I remember the bow was a flatbow style that was slightly over built. I'm guessing that is a good reason it was still holding together. I wish I had taken some pictures of it.
I have never tried this on a thin ringed stave but I would like to give it a shot one day.
Over the years I have had several osage staves that looked like violations but weren't, it looked like it formd mini rings less than paper thick but it seemed to be just a color thing. His may have been actual violations I don't know.
At the thickness of a dime you should be able to chase it carefully with a draw knife and a scraper just as you would any other osgae. Just go slow of course so you don't go through the spring wood.
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They were definitely ring violations.
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I like thin ringed osage. It can be difficult to chase a clean ring and especially if there are knots or pins so I usually rawhide back it.
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If the early to late wood ratio is good then you got some of the best osage out there IMO. Granted it does take time to chase a ring bu its worth it.
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What Cody said is my feeling totally.
Pappy
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Take your time. If you miss then go through it again.
Get close with your drawknife and then finish up with a scraper-like tool.
Here's how I do it.
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/osage.html
Jawge
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Thin ring has performed better for me. The best Osage I ever used was very thin ring stuff like you describe and it had that "redness" to it. It was great.
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Thin ring has performed better for me. The best Osage I ever used was very thin ring stuff like you describe and it had that "redness" to it. It was great.
My experience with thin-ringed reddish Osage was a catastrophic failure at about 20" draw on the tillering frame. No visible defect, just amazingly brittle wood.
Thin ringed yellow wood has worked OK, but I hate it. I have a lot of it with 30 or more rings per inch. Anybody who likes it want to trade for some wide ringed? >:D
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Interesting. My absolute favorite is thin ring. Dark or light colored, love them both. It is a bit more fickle to get one finished without it exploding, but those that make it, and most of mine do, are faster lighter springer bows.
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I also like thin ringed osage, most of the time itīs heavier than wide ringed osage, the only difficulty is to free the right ring with no violations. Look at this bow"http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,49482.msg675808.html#msg675808", itīs made of this kind of osage.
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if it is "snappier" then it would take less set and hold a heavier draw weight with less mass,,
and shoot harder for a given draw weight,,
I have never seen anyone post chrono results with a superior thin ring bow,,, just curious if anyone has done or seen that,, I have a feeling it is more even than most would think,, seeing really great bows from both wide and thin ring,, I am not convinced there is that much difference :) that being said I have two very thin ringed staves roughed and and hope you are right :)
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If the early to late wood ratio is good then you got some of the best osage out there IMO. Granted it does take time to chase a ring bu its worth it.
I have heard this many times from many people, and I don't mean to single you out Cody, granted I do not have as much experience as some. But I do have this comment: If early to late wood ratio is important, then how thin would the early wood have to be if the late is the thickness of a dime or thinner, :-\ :-\ seams to me it would have to look like a line on the end grain. ??? I haven't seen any end grain on osage with the early wood as thin as a pencil line.
I would really appreciate it, if someone could post a few pictures of a thin ringed osage with good early to late wood ratio.
Thanks,
DBar
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It is only my experience that tells me that thin ring is snappier as I have not shot thru a chrono in some years but, I am certain that I prefer thin ringed Osage over thick ringed based on that experience. The most remarkable bow I have made in a long time, maybe ever, is one I finished May or June of last year. Knotty Boy will get you to the thread. Thin ringed and a high crown. Bright yellow in color. 3 inches or so of natural reflex and it still has 2 inches when first unstrung. The high crown alone made keeping it together a bit iffy, and then add in the thin rings and knots, it was tricky. It finished around 50 lbs at 27 inches. It was very smooth and noticeably fast for a longish bow, 66 inches I believe. One of my hardest hitters at that weight based on feel, and the depth it buries an arrow in my targets. Most remarkable is that it now pulls over 60. Haven't weighed it in some time but maybe 65 or so and it still has most of the setback it started with after countless shots. Can't say wether it's a product of the thin rings alone or some combination of factors, but it's not the first thin ringed bow that over performed for me. On the flip side, the really thick ringed stuff has often gone the other direction for me. More set and more sluggish by comparison. Just a feel more than anything, but I will bet on the thinner stuff being faster pound for pound.
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If the early to late wood ratio is good then you got some of the best osage out there IMO. Granted it does take time to chase a ring bu its worth it.
I have heard this many times from many people, and I don't mean to single you out Cody, granted I do not have as much experience as some. But I do have this comment: If early to late wood ratio is important, then how thin would the early wood have to be if the late is the thickness of a dime or thinner, :-\ :-\ seams to me it would have to look like a line on the end grain. ??? I haven't seen any end grain on osage with the early wood as thin as a pencil line.
I would really appreciate it, if someone could post a few pictures of a thin ringed osage with good early to late wood ratio.
Thanks,
DBar
Bill, I have seen thin ringed osage where the early wood is equal if not thicker that the late wood, not something you want. Thin ringed osage is like normal wood that has been compressed so the ratio should stay the same. All the quality thin ringed I have worked has had paper thin early and thin dense late.
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If the rings are super thin lime you say, best way to do it is remove the bark and use it lime white wood. First layer under the bark is your back and a solid ring. Done that lots of times. Almost all my osage I work is thin ring stuff. I wouldnt know what to do if I had a thick ring piece.
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it would seem to me that if you had a thick ring bow and thin ring bow both holding same amount of reflex and about the same mass,, there would be little difference in cast,, it might be easier to get a thin ring stave to hold reflex,, but I am not sure about that ,, I had a stave from David Mims,, the rings were so thick .. I have never made a bow from something like that,, I think the whole bow was 2 rings,very light yellow, anyway my friend made a bow that ended up about dead even,, it shot very well through the chronograph,, and went against what I thought was going to happen,, very nice shooting bow and great cast,,,I think in the bow mentioned above, the amount of reflex might be contributing to the great cast as much or more than the thickness of the ring,,over all osage can just make some great shooting bows in any configuration that holds together,, :)
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If the early to late wood ratio is good then you got some of the best osage out there IMO. Granted it does take time to chase a ring bu its worth it.
I have heard this many times from many people, and I don't mean to single you out Cody, granted I do not have as much experience as some. But I do have this comment: If early to late wood ratio is important, then how thin would the early wood have to be if the late is the thickness of a dime or thinner, :-\ :-\ seams to me it would have to look like a line on the end grain. ??? I haven't seen any end grain on osage with the early wood as thin as a pencil line.
I would really appreciate it, if someone could post a few pictures of a thin ringed osage with good early to late wood ratio.
Thanks,
DBar
Bill, I have seen thin ringed osage where the early wood is equal if not thicker that the late wood, not something you want. Thin ringed osage is like normal wood that has been compressed so the ratio should stay the same. All the quality thin ringed I have worked has had paper thin early and thin dense late.
Understand Cody, I guess I have just never seen that kind of wood. :-\
Thanks,
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can you treat it like white wood and use the sap wood directly under the bark?
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Chase a heartwood ring, Lee. You are better off. You'll get contrary opinions probably.
You can do it.
I've left thin ringed osage just a little wider for safety.
Jawge
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can you treat it like white wood and use the sap wood directly under the bark?
George knows his stuff to be sure. No disrespect, but I have almost completely quit chasing a heartwood ring infavor of sapwood. Your call of course. I think ( caution, this is me thinking ) that super thin ring stuff could be done like yew,and to heck with a ring, just work it.
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can you treat it like white wood and use the sap wood directly under the bark?
I wouldn't treat it like a whitewood but you can leave a few rings on. My last osage bow had 2 thin sapwood rings.
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I always try and chase a heart wood ring. :) It is really not that hard once you get started if the wood is pretty clean, Kind of fun really, if it is full of pins/knots and such and also very thin ringed then I make walking sticks or knife handles out of it. ;) :) :)
Pappy
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You know what this thread needs? Pictures!
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You know what this thread needs? Pictures!
+1
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??? Is there and echo.. ??? ??? :)
DBar
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Right now I am working a bow that is very thin ringed. I count 21 rings inside 3/8" before they really start getting thin. I about went cross eyed working the limb in different light angles to see the ring I was chasing. Almost lost my temper once. But thats done and am almost done tillering.
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(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20141225_191933_zps4yihic6e.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20141225_191933_zps4yihic6e.jpg.html)
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I will only chase super thin rings when it is definitely cured. As we all have expereinced on chasing rings on wet wood, tear out can be an issue and identifying the early growth by its "chalkiness" is almost impossible on wet wood. I love the fades on a tight ringed stave though. If a guy is in doubt, back it for protection like Pat said. Danny
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Several years ago a guy on e bay was selling some thin ringed osage. I sent him a message telling him thin ringed osage was inferior wood and his prices were too high. He told me I was full of shit and if I didn't like his osage then don't buy it. I thought to myself that maybe he was right and I bought one of his staves. Ever since then I buy all the thin ringed osage I can get my hands on. I don't even worry about the ratio anymore like I was told is so important as long as it is somewhere close to 50% or less.
The only osage I really have had bad luck with comes mainly from Kansas, Iowa and Missouri but that could very well just be the luck of the draw and have no real bearing on the wood that normaly comes out of those states.
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Im workin some Missouri thin ring now. What have you had problems with Badger? Also how do you deal with the back, one ring or no?
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No basis in fact, only my ponderings on the subject....I believe that the thin ring Osage has less physical weight per pound of draw weight because there is more of the less dense early wood throughout sandwiched in between lots of hardwood rings giving it strength. Admittedly, this is just a guess, but lots of bow makers see the same results from the thinner stuff. Could this be a part of the puzzle?
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This one had about 20 rings per inch, some places more..
I still have staves from this one, the only bow I made from it so far has survived, I left the sapwood on..
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee423/joelacefield/c1e055e9-eb72-4a0b-ae39-14faed1e1f36_zpsac7b975d.jpg) (http://s1227.photobucket.com/user/joelacefield/media/c1e055e9-eb72-4a0b-ae39-14faed1e1f36_zpsac7b975d.jpg.html)