Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: tom sawyer on January 15, 2008, 06:31:59 pm
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I pretty much use a timber hitch exclusively for my bowstrings anymore. Re-twisting a second loop several times to get the right length is a pain. But I'm finding that a timber hitch doesn't seem to work well with the newer B50-plus/fastflight string material.
But here is problem I often had when I did make double loop strings. When twisting up the second loop, it seems that the twisting/braiding of the loop led to an unravelling of the strands ner one of the loops, that wouldn't come out or be reversed with more twisting of the finished string. This has caused several of these strings to come undone on one end. A big pain considering I hate making strings to begin with.
Any help on fixing what I'm doing wrong? I've heard you are supposed to introduce a certain number of counter-twists before making the second loop, but never any details on this.
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My only guess is that you are switching directions in your twist and wrap. Always twist away and wrap toward. I can sympathise with you on the wrong length thing. I still haven't figured out how to get it the right length the first time. Recurve strings are especially difficult for me. Justin
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What might be happening is the possibility that you're not rotating the string around 180 degrees when you start your second loop. After twisting for the initial loop length amount, I always have the loop in my left hand, and the excess string I'm splicing the loop with laying to the right. Do that with both loops, always have the excess rest of the string to the right of the loop you're working with. That way when you go to twist the string after both loops are finished, you're tightening the splices of both ends of the string at the same time...not tightening one end and unraveling the other end. Hope that makes sense, and I'm not sure if that is what is happening with your strings. :)
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First, just a reccomendation for anyone interested----the paperback book advertised in most archery catalogs---(K.K. & 3 rivers) "Laying in the Flemish Twist" is fantastic in my opinion. Now reffering to your countertwist for the second loop? Hold each cord seperately, one at a time, between the first joint of your pointing finger and thumb and roll clockwise to the end of your finger, maintain the twist and repeat again about 12 times. Now secure this cord while going to the next. Once both have reverse twisting begin your second loop. This is a little more than what the authior uses but always gives me better results. Hope this helps. :)
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In answer to your question or problem getting the right legnth string every time; A good jig will solve the problem, getting the right measurement on a recurve is easy, just measure from nock to nock on the belly side, then subtract 4", 3" for longbow. Here's a link for great info.
http://www2.pcom.net/jthutten/jth/doc/flem_jig.htm
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Thanks Dano, I actually have the jig. I just seem to wrap to tight and use to much string or not tight enough and leave it to long. Its really kind of embarrassing when someone is waiting for you to make them a string and you have to keep readjusting it. :-[ Justin
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I hear ya Justin, just takes LOTS of practice, like most things. ;)
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I haven't had any problems with the dozen or so I've made. Have a jig but have to slow down and do some math every time - all I have is B-50..
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There is a good article in the newest edition of PA. Like February's ;D
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You got yours? >:(
That's a Christmas present that I haven't got to open yet.
Otoe
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There is a good article in the newest edition of PA. Like February's ;D
Hey my wife just brought mine in. Justin
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Oh Good. I have something to look forward to in the distant future. My new PA magazine! ;D Pat
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I'd had the same problmem for awhile. I just started counting how many twists it took to make the plaited part on the first loop and added that many more to it before I started on the other end. That way if you unwind some making the other end its just in the string part not in the actual loop.
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I do what Chris sez, sans the counting. I counter twist the lays, after first making sure they are straight, about 20-30 twists before I start the second loop. I like a string that lays straight in the center, twisted only on the ends. I find w/ FF I need a newly twisted string about 1/2" to 3/4" shorter than stretched in string's lenght. And you have to be careful when you start your second loop to get it positioned properly, I actually lay it up against the braced bow. Don't find a jig to cut the strands particularly helpful, although admittedly a time saver, for getting the second loop positioned correctly. Perhaps because I've never used one.
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One thing about fast flight string is that you can twist it more than other strings to shorten it if it is too long. I can use about 4 different strings for bows from 58" to 72". Once it is twisted and the bow is braced I never notice all the twists, it doesn't buckle like linen or b 50 does. I use the double loop. Steve
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I wrote a quick article for PA last month on a slightly different type of string that I make. It's quick and easy to make and is a combination of an endless loop and a flemish. Takes very little time to make
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That is kind of what I had heard before, about adding twists before you start the second side. The only part I'm fuzzy on is what is a twist? I make sure to roll each of the two (or three) bundles in the same direction, and I typically put some twists in the string before starting the second loop so the string has a twisted appearance throughout the length (looks good when you are using two colors). So I simply need to add more of these twists? Or I need to unwind the two lays first by rolling them backwards so that they are unwound in the loose part of the string, then start my winding in the proper direction? That second one sounds right, and it does appear that the two lays wind up over-twisted and on the verge of starting to roll themselves in the opposite direction as a result. Kind of like what happens when you wind the heck out of a rubber-band-powered airplane.
I'll give this a shot sometime. I don't use a jig, probably ought to get hold of one though.
Looking forward to the article Marc.
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Make your jig Lennie. Its the easiest thing you will make for bows. ;) The twist is the rolling in your fingers. I watched the video once and it said twist away wrap toward, so I say twist. ??? It always twists away from you. Then after I fold it back I turn it around so I am always working left to right. then it twists away and wraps toward. Clear as mud? ??? Justin
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I, too, had trouble with a loop unraveling even if I carefully "did the twist" correctly. When I started to semi-braid the strings of the loop and really mass them together with lots of wax before starting the twist, I solved my problems.
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I just bought a couple spools of B50 thinking it was going to really good,(goin by what I heard) I think the stuff is terrible, now I have to serve the twist just to keep it from unraveling, Ive tried beez wax and patrolium based wax or both together and it does not matter, fast flight or B40 is way better. don't even know if ya can get B40 any more or is that fast flight? good thread.
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I've read a little more on some other sites about this prewinding prio to the second loop business. I think I was really making it bad for myself by keeping the two bundles twisted and wound around each other. From what I can tell you are supposed to unroll them to where the strands in each loop are not twisted at all, then actually twist them backwards several times. Thanks for the advice. And Justin I'll probably make a simple jib where I can wrap strands around three nails, that'd keep the string off the floor in the shop if nothing else. Probably still have the problem of keeping track of just how many strands I have in a bundle. NEver fails, I get to six or seven and wonder is it six or seven. Its tough to count them when they are waxed up good.
PK, I've bought some B50 Dacron that wasn't waxed very well, it was a pain. Stuff with good wax works better, and this little business of introducing negative twists to compensate for over-twisting during second loop production, should make a big difference. I never heard of B40. B50 is the traditional material. there's many low-stretch strings, 452, B50+, TS1, etc. Stuff is made of Fast flight, dyneema, and combinations of various low stretch synthetic fibers.
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I bought doin the twist with Joe Strak, very good dvd.
If anybody would like to watch it i could loan it to you.
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I take all the twists out of my string before starting the second loop, the trick is before pulling it tight to finish it off you have to give the whole string about 30 turns counter clockwise. They cant unravel like that. Steve
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One thing I forgot to mention, the whole clockwise/counterclockwise stuff messes with me because I'm a lefty and do things backwards from you folks. Its hard to know what instructions to reverse though. I wouldn't tie my boots and then put them on. But my bowknots are probably mirror images of yours.
Its tough being a lefty.
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That is a horrible burden Lennie. That is why I say twist away wrap toward. It works if you hold it in your left hand pointing right or your right hand pointing left. ;D Justin
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It's good to hear that you guys have troubles with string length. I measure my loop lengths very carefully and still have problems hitting my desired length. One of my biggest problems has been making a string slightly too short and unwinding it to get it to fit (you guess what happens).
I've found that if you can stand it, it helps to just stockpile strings of every normal length so you have something to put on the bow regardless. I probably have a dozen good strings around all the time and this has saved me a lot of heartache when I'm ready for a new string. I also switched a year ago to FF strings only so the numbers on my jig threw me off. :P
With any luck, an experienced string maker like me can size a string right in only 3-5 tries. ;D
J. D.
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oops I put this in the wrong thread
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The simple string jig is the way to go for getting the right length.
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I just tie a knot on one end its so much easier length is perfect everytime ;D
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ton sawyer, I'll just mention this because know one has. After tying the first loop I wrap a twisty tie around it to keep it from unraveling, remove all twists and tie the second loop. I tie the loop for the bottom limb just large enough to stay on the nock securely. Jawge
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Id like to make a string jig,anybody have a how to or a link to a how to?Thanks.
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Auggie, Dano posted one on the first page. It is a little different than mine, Ill send some pictures of mine. It counts the strands and determines length for you. Justin
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Jawge, that might even be enough to get me out of my predicament. I think pretwisting (in the wrong direction) has been my downfall. I wondered why I would sometimes not have the problem, it is probably when I got lazy and didn't pretwist the two bundles as much.
This will still not make me want to make strings, and I'll probably use the timber hitch for a lot of my homemade bows. But it does fill in a gap in my archery knowledge. Thanks to you all.
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I wrote a quick article for PA last month on a slightly different type of string that I make. It's quick and easy to make and is a combination of an endless loop and a flemish. Takes very little time to make
I liked the article Marc ! I'm going to have to try that one.
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Not that I know that much about string twisting, but have had several unwind on me. I think it had something to do with not wax welding it properly. I measure my strings using the jig I made and add 18 inches for the two ends. First end I measure out nine inches, separate into two equal sets and start twisting - it doesn't matter if you roll toward and twist away or vise versa as long as you do it the same way on both ends. Depending on which way you do it determines what direction you'll have to twist the string to shorten or lengthen it. I've started using a twist tie at the end of first loop also to keep it intact while I'm working on the other end - and always rub in lots of wax and rub it vigorously to build up heat, usually get's too hot on the fingertips :).