Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: jeffp51 on October 16, 2014, 10:08:40 pm
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I just saw in the previous topic that phragmites reeds can be used for arrows. We have those by the zillions around here, but I always considered them too weak for an arrow. does anyone have experience with them? What has to be done to make them work?
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I think thunder has a set
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Jackcrafty has made Phragmites arrows and probably has a build along in the "How To" section.
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Jeff, I could be wrong but I think the issue we have is the growing season. With winter kill it is hard to find them that have grown enough to have a more solid wall. I could be wrong, but I do know that is the issue we have with Bamboo here. I am going to try some and I can let you know.
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JackCrafty (AllergicHobbit on youtube) produced vids re these shafts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zLUbhqab5Y
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Joe is right about the growing season being important. I have harvested quite a bit of phragmites around the country including Joe's neck of the woods around Salt Lake City. It's important to give it as much chance to mature as possible. I usually cut within a week of the first frost in northern areas as it deteriorates quickly after it goes dormant for the winter. If you cut some that isn't mature, it will shrivel as it dries and get a wrinkly appearance. If it doesn't wrinkle its probably good to go. When harvesting phragmites, look for the tallest culms with the narrowest diameter base. The walls get thinner the higher up the culm you go so ideally you want your arrow from the lowest section of the culm. Phragmites is high in spine for its weight so you'll want some pretty dense wood for the foreshaft to bring the weight up. A knock insert is a good idea as well. I use bamboo skewers that just fit inside the phragmites, slid all the way into the node, superglued and sinew wrapped. Phragmites is the most delicate shafting I use, but if done correctly, will make some fine shooting arrows. Josh
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Jeff lives just south of Tyke and I Josh. Having seen Jeffs other work I am waiting to see what he does with these!
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what wood works for a foreshaft? that wasn't covered in the how-to mentioned above
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The biggest thing with the foreshaft wood is that it be strong and straight grain. For lighter bows I've even used raminwood dowels. To get your weight up for heavier bows, hickory, ironwood, mesquite, or anything heavy and dense. I usually use dogwood shoots. I haven't tried it yet, but ipe, bloodwood and other heavier than water exotics theoretically would be ideal to get the weight up.
One other important tip about phragmites. No glue will bond well to the outer skin. Anywhere you intend sinew wrap or Fletch with glue needs to be roughed up with med grit sand paper or similar grit sandstone works well. Also heat straightening phragmites is a delicate process. Take your time and easy does it. Josh
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Bamboo is the same way. It has to be bare "Wood" or nothing will stick.
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Now know what those clumps of TALL grass plants are that dot the unkept "common ground" behind our place. Was out there this afternoon collecting couple dozen and then spent rest of afternoon "processing" 'em. GOOD DAY! ;D
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Now know what those clumps of TALL grass plants are that dot the unkept "common ground" behind our place. Was out there this afternoon collecting couple dozen and then spent rest of afternoon "processing" 'em. GOOD DAY! ;D
If you run out where your at, there's thousands of acres of it across the river in east st Louis. I harvest a lot of mine along collinsville rd straight south of the race track. Josh
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If you run out where your at, there's thousands of acres of it across the river in east st Louis. I harvest a lot of mine along collinsville rd straight south of the race track. Josh
Thanks, Josh. Stuff out back is mighty thin-walled.
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I'm afraid thin walls is the norm with phragmites. No matter where I get it. There's definitely more durable arrow materials in your area. Josh
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Just cut a whole bunch of this stuff from around Utah Lake this morning. We will see if any of it is usable.
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am I right in making foreshafts for these that the entire foreshaft should be in front of the bow at full draw? seems like you wouldn't want the joint between the phragmites and the hardwood wacking the side of the bow.
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that's the way i've seen them
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How do you go about removing the pithy inner portion of phragmite shaft so ya can insert the insert?
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You are correct Jeff. The foreshaft stays forward of the bows back when drawn.
Knoll if you have a pithy center, its probably pampas grass not phragmites. Pampas grass grows in clumps. Phragmites spreads out over huge areas like cattails. You may have to cross the river yet. Josh
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Knoll ... You may have to cross the river yet. Josh
oh, no!
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I know I'm chiming in a little late on this thread, but I think I may finally have enough experience on a subject to pay back a little of what you folks have given me.
Up until just a couple of months ago I was treating phragmite like it was river cane. As it turns out, there is no river cane in New Braunfels, TX.; but phragmites grow all over the place. You have to be very selective in the field when harvesting this stuff or you're gonna have a bad time. If the cane break you are in is yielding one paper thin shaft after another do yourself a favor and move to the next one. The good (and bad) stuff seems to all grow in the same areas. As stated earlier, you'll want to harvest mature shafts. They'll have grey sheaths and, at least in my area, yellow stems that may show a little green at the nodes. Make sure it has green leaves at the top of the shoot, anything standing dead is useless. The best stuff will be in the center of the break along with the rattle snakes, cow spiders, and whatever other creeping nasty your imagination and South Central Texas can conjure up. Seriously, you gotta want it.
When making arrows, I've found the following tips to be most helpful:
1) harvest about 2 or 3 days after a good rain. I don't know why, but it seems like the walls are thicker and stronger.
2)dry slowly and naturally. No ovens, heat guns, or fires. Patience, Grasshopper. Takes about 3 months in A Texas autumn. That's like a summer in Hell. (I shucked mine for drying).
3)use a foreshaft. I use Bodark or Mesquite because thorns are awesome.
4)leave about 2" of culm and run the foreshaft all the way to the node. Wrap behind the support node and at the shaft/foreshaft intersection.
5)do not rush the straightening process. Use a heatgun, not a torch. Once it starts to shine it's ready to bend. Once it starts to darken it's ready to break.
6)read #5 again
7)you can drill out the culm to fit the foreshaft if you have to. Take a couple of wraps of masking tape around the section to be drilled. Make sure you get a good, tight wrap ;because wrinkles in the tape offend my sense of asthetics. (did I spell that right?)
8)use a nock plug. Again, try to pick a hardwood that's thorny and painful to handle.
9)if a shaft has an oversized bulge or a drastic bend close to the node, or if it just won't straighten or stay straight, get rid of it. It's just a stick, not a point of honor.
10)MOST IMPORTANT :IF YOU HAVE BEEN IN THE SHOP FOR 9 HOURS AND YOU'VE BROKEN 67 ARROWS BUT ONLY STRAIGHTENED 3 DO NOT KICK THE DOG. HE LOVES YOU AND IT'S NOT HIS FAULT. It's the cats fault. Just ask the dog.
Most kidding aside, phragmites make a really good arra, if treated properly. I wouldn't do allot of stumping with them, bit they will fly fast and true. Good for targets and game. Hope this helps.
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Thanks, waza. 67 broke & 3 successes, huh? You're doing better than I!! But still have some remaning, and gonna give another effort.
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Phragmites works great for arrows... it just doesn't get perfectly straight no matter how hard you try.
Waza, I don't think you have phrag in New Braunfels. I haven't found any there. What you got is Arundo Donax, not Phragmites australis subsp. americanus.
If you don't got stuff with walls like in the pictures below, you aint got phragmites! (none of these were cut near the node where the reed is thicker)
Come to Midland. We got it. ;D
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Patrick . . . my stuff is hollow, like your pic. But your pictured wall thickness seems to be gobs (scientific term) thicker than mine.
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Yep, phragmites is gobs thicker than other reed. ;D
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Do any of you feel that the spine and strength of Phragmites increases as it dries? Not 100 % certain what I have here--I have ruled out Arundaria Gigantica and am pretty sure I have a mixture of Phragmites stands and stands of Arundo Donax.
I think this statement by Josh is key:
"...If you cut some that isn't mature, it will shrivel as it dries and get a wrinkly appearance. If it doesn't wrinkle its probably good to go. When harvesting phragmites, look for the tallest culms with the narrowest diameter base. The walls get thinner the higher up the culm you go so ideally you want your arrow from the lowest section of the culm. Phragmites is high in spine for its weight so you ideally want your arrow from the lowest section of the culm..."
I hadn't thought of it this way, but I have about 50 stalks drying in the garage, and this makes sense. Where I live, just north of Corpus Christi, we rarely get a freeze. We have some really big bases on the culms--hard to get below 1/2 inch. And since most of it isn't dormant--ever--portions of suitable diameter near the top tend to be crumpled and weak.
I really would prefer not to have a .5 inch diameter nock.
Russ
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Hey, Jeff! I am a Utahn, as well. The specie you see in the GSL marshes and around UL is NOT the same specie the guys back east use. At least my research tells me so. Ours lives only a year or two, and is very sensitive to water levels. It is an imported/invasive species.
"Phragmites" is the name of a whole family of grasses that grow as reeds. What we have, I believe is Phrag. Australis. My experience makes me think kid's arrows only. I don't know what these guys back east have, but rivercane and hill cane are not the same as what we have.
But, if you like, I'd be happy to show you where we can cut plum, chokecherry, willow, and red osier shoots.
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Comancheria, the ones with the wrinkly appearance are dispersed within the stands and seem to be weaker in general no matter what the age. They are usually shorter and have more dense leaf growth near the top. I haven't seen the wrinkly appearance created from the drying process.
Phrag and Donax produce toxins that prevent the growth of other plants within the stand. I don't think the stands are mixed but different stands might be different species. Phrag tends to grow shorter and doesn't get much thicker than 3/4" of an inch at the base. I've seen some close to 1" wide but they are very rare.
Reed will dry well in a hotbox or hot car. I've dried them in as little as two weeks on the dashboard during the summer. Keep the leaves on if they were harvested in wet weather. They do split sometimes when they are very green and heavy with water. The leaves help to slow the drying on the outer skin.
You can use reed anywhere along the stem as long as it matches the spine you need. Let the spine tester tell you what to use.
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I've been doing a lot of reading on phragmites and, because I am not a botanist, I am probably oversimplifying what I'm calling "phragmites". In fact, botanists regard phragmites as "common reed" and say that phrag grows in all states and is invasive except for the possibility of a native strain in the western US. I believe we have that native strain where I live. I've seen actual artifacts (reed arrow shafts) made by southwest Indians and the arrows are NOT thin-walled. Some of these arrows are at least 1000 years old and definitely are not made from plants introduced by Europeans.
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The stuff is definitely in separate stands. My observation is that what I am thinking is the AD has heavy side growths emerging from many of the nodes. There are marks at those same nodes on what I call the Phragmites, but no real leaves growing from there. Also, the AD has a straighter plume, whereas it looks to me that what I am assuming to be the Phragmites has a more branched or scraggly plume.
The Ag guys down here swear that what I am calling Phragmites is exactly that--but I Am not sure yet. Still, u am going to try to make arrows out of the stuff--as well as from Youpon. May even use skinny Youpon for mock inserts and fire shafts as well.
And this is a most helpful thread!
Best regards,
Russ
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But, if you like, I'd be happy to show you where we can cut plum, chokecherry, willow, and red osier shoots.
I would be happy to find chokecherry and red osier especially. I like experimenting with different materials. I am leaning toward display arrows (arrow of light for cub scouts) most likely for the phragmites, but some of the stuff I harvested looks like it might actually work. Others not so much. It is clearly not as thick as that texas stuff.
Where in Utah are you? there are getting to be a few of us. I am in Pleasant Grove.
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Jeff, I have cut some willow, Haven't made arrows out of any yet, but I know where to get lots.
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yeah, willow is easy to find, and I have some lilac too. If I can find chokecherry, maybe I can make a bow from it too, and I would like to try red osier. I am going to try the phragmites once my Christmas projects are done. I still have a lot of feathers to cut. . .
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Bountiful area for me. Nice to meet ya. PM me. I'm a busy man, but free at weird times and short notice.
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I don't know why I hate cutting and grinding feathers, but I do!
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Hey, Jeff! I am a Utahn, as well. The specie you see in the GSL marshes and around UL is NOT the same specie the guys back east use. At least my research tells me so. Ours lives only a year or two, and is very sensitive to water levels. It is an imported/invasive species.
"Phragmites" is the name of a whole family of grasses that grow as reeds. What we have, I believe is Phrag. Australis. My experience makes me think kid's arrows only. I don't know what these guys back east have, but rivercane and hill cane are not the same as what we have.
But, if you like, I'd be happy to show you where we can cut plum, chokecherry, willow, and red osier shoots.
You are certainly right, but it may work anyway. The stuff I cut looks like the reed from GunDoc's how-to http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,49422.0.html. I am cautiously optimistic, but I don't think my expectations are too high, either.
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I don't know why I hate cutting and grinding feathers, but I do!
My problem is finding enough feathers.
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What type of feathers are you after?
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Oh, I can buy all I want, but I like to use natural feathers when I make primitive arrows, like natural turkey or Canada goose. Turkey hunting isn't the thing in UT it is back east, and not many guys harvest.
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I'll let you know after the hunt coming up. I got 2 wings last season from a friend at work. I still have one left. I also put out the word to all my water fowl buddies, no returns from that yet.
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Here is my first attempt at a phragmites arrow. This one is display only, as it is an arrow of light arrow for my son, but I am confident it would work just fine. Here the stats:
28" main shaft and 4" foreshaft made of a lilac shoot from my neighbor's yard. The spine is very near to some of my bamboo shafts, but quite a bit lighter. The entire arrow is 22 grams. It also straightens pretty easily, and with very little heat. It reminded me of roasting marshmallows--that light golden brown seemed to be the color when the nodes were perfect for bending. The Point is some sort of vodka bottle glass I found in the recycling dumpster (yes, I do dive--so sue me), and the sinew I also got for free from the game processor. So everything about this arrow was 100% free.
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One more of the owner. He is happy, he just doesn't smile much. The arrow is now on the wall over his bed
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Very nice looking arrow!
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Very nicely done Sir! I like the lilac foreshaft. Lucky for me I have plenty of dogwood around, else I might wind up in the doghouse at home for unauthorized pruning of Momma's lilac bushes! Lol! Josh
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Good work!
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thanks for the compliments. Considering the sources, and the work you three have done, it means a lot.