Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: ScottRoush on June 26, 2014, 08:27:44 am
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Hi folks... I started this bow last fall and then a fell winter hit and things went down hill in terms of having time to work on stuff like this. But things are back on track (although it's still only 40 F this morning!) and I'd like to continue work on this Pacific yew bow.
I've never had to deal with a knot that fully penetrates the bow and I need some advice. My original plan was to put in a yew plug with sawdust/glue.. but then I read that plugs work well in compression.. but not tension. So is it best then to only fill it with saw dust and not a plug.. or do nothing? So far I've cleaned out the hole of the dark, dirty stuff.
My other question is whether or not I should pursue a heavy draw ... 110# plus... for a bow that has a fully penetrating knot like this.
(http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj61/The_Roushs/IMG_5414_zps79cb772a.jpg)
(http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj61/The_Roushs/IMG_5415_zpsac33f98b.jpg)
You can just make out the location of this knot in the limb....
(http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj61/The_Roushs/IMG_5417_zps58d07bf2.jpg)
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I just realized that I had posted this question last year.. and got good answers. But at that time the knot was still hidden. So.. might be nice to get an updated opinion now that this thing is out in the clear.
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The hole is midlimb on the right in the picture, right?
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The hole is midlimb on the right in the picture, right?
Yes... sorry I should have pointed that out. Looks like a little black dot in the location you said.. to the right, mid-limb.
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Yew often has loose knots that result in such holes in the limbs. The position at mid limb is a pity, but you're lucky it is positioned in the middle of the width of the limb. Personally, I would not fill it.
Since this hole is essentially an area without the full width of the limb, you need to compensate for it. You could either leave the limb thicker or wider around the knot. Judging by the looks of it, the bow seems already pretty close to final width lay-out. That means you can't make the bow wider at the knot, so you need to make it thicker. Leave a few extra rings on top of the belly around the knot, and tiller it so it is slightly stiff.
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That is a shame! I'm with DarkSoul - don't fill it and leave the bow thicker/stiffer there. There's also no reason to drop the goal weight - there are much heavier yew bows out there with far worse problems! 110# is still reasonably light for a true warbow so unless you want to drop right down to target weight I'd push for as heavy a bow as you can. There's no reason that won't make 110#!
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Okay.. thank folks.
Well I may go back up in my target weight then. Originally I had wanted at least 120#.. but if this can survive at that weight with the knot then great.
As a side.. given that this bow succeeds.. I was hoping somebody could recommend a fletcher to make a dozen arrows for this. Some standards and some flight. Stateside would be best.... but I'd like some nice shafts. I will forge the points...
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IMO, you are ok for a medium weight bow if you simply peg the hole, say up to 80# as long as you keep the back fairly wide. Try not to disturb the integrity of the sapwood where it flows round the hole.
Another solution is to peg the hole (right through) and then rasp away a shallow curved depression along the back (going from no depth to say half the depth of the sapwood where the knot is and then fading out to nothing again) for say 4" and overlay a sliver of sapwood. That will improve the strength and integrity of the back. That would prob be ok for higher draw weights.
Plugged knots on the belly are no problem at all. What is a problem is unplugged knots which have manky black rings round them which compress causing a pinch.
Personally I think the the advice to leave it unplugged is poor on an ELB with it's narrow limbs, but then I've never tried it so I'm just going on gut feel.
Bottom line is, only you can decide. measuring the width of the hole on the back may help you decide. if it's less than say 1/4 of the width it's prob' OK.
Del
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Thanks Del...
If this is a risky endeavor.. I'd rather have a medium weight bow than no bow at all. I do not yet have an English longbow in my collection and this yew stave was not cheap. I'm fine with waiting for a better stave on the warbow.... and maybe just plugging this one.
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FWIW I would suggest making your own arrows. They're a fraction of the price of bought ones, and if you can make a bow you can definitely make arrows! You'd be paying somebody a fortune to glue some feathers on a shaft and wind silk around them...
Took me a while to get mine to where I wanted them (still working on them actually - finally got round to using 1mm thick British cow horn for the inserts rather than the whopping great 3mm slabs of buffalo horn you can buy from archery shops for "medieval" arrows, so they're actually resembling the Mary Rose arrows now, plus I managed to pick up around 400 goose and swan feathers from various locations near me (for free!) so no more Turkey feathers!!) but I know now that I could never pay for them - they're too personal and unique to get somebody else to do them in my eyes.)
That being said, Adam ("adb" on here) makes some superb looking arrows so he might be worth a try? Oh and Daniel (toomanyknots) posted some stunning war arrows a while back.
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Yeah I've made some arrows.. but it more comes down to time for me. I work for myself and when it comes to arrows I just don't take the time to make them as well as they could be. Sometimes I find it's better to just pay the specialists. :-) I'm much better at forging the points.
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Fair point! They are ridiculously time consuming!
Do you sell arrowheads to the UK by the way? There aren't many good smiths available for orders...
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I could as I frequently sell entire spears and swords across the pond! But I'd be more willing to trade at this point for the sake of getting feedback from experienced folk. I've only started forging them over this winter and haven't spent much time tweaking them. They look very nice on the outside.. but they probably need a more even taper inside the socket. I forged the first several without the use of a mandrel. I now have a little mandrel but haven't had time to forge points! I will get more fired up for this once this bow is strung.
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Here is my first one...
(http://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1/1546331_640690339305724_1452161367_n.jpg)
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Very nice - clean lines! I'd love to see your take on a Tudor bodkin!
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hmm.. will have to see if I can find a forging sequence for those. I could easily just forge a conical bodkin and then grind in the 'edge-wing-thingies'.. but I have a feeling that is not how they were made.
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Sorry to join this late.
I'm with Del about plugging the hole. Ideally, the bow should have been left wider around the knot at 1/2 the dimension of the hole on either side, then it could have been left. I use horn or bone rod for dutchmen (plugs) as it's period, in the material at least, glues well and is very strong in compression. They are cheap enough on ebay. I'd turn it into a truncated cone shape with the larger side on the belly as the hole seems to open out here. You may be able to use your ground down spade bit that you use for making the internal cone in the horn nocks to make a clean hole without removing more wood than you need to. I'd use a slow set epoxy to bond it in.
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Thanks everybody for your input. I will post pictures but right now it looks I have a shooter if it survives 'shooting it in'. It's probably going to be in the 80# range.. which is fine. I'd rather build up to shooting heavier bows.
One thing I wonder if I should change though.. this stave has a naturally deflexed profile... just a gentle C appearing like an old bow that followed it's string. Should put a bit of reflex in the tips before I get my horn nocks on???
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I think it depends how much there is? A bit of set is perfectly normal for a heavy bow, especially one that's been tillered slowly and carefully. The top guys can start, finish and tiller a warbow in about a day or two, which means much less time sat on the tree and much less string follow as a result but us mere mortals tend to have a bit of set at the end.
If you're talking anything up to about 2" I wouldn't bother going to the hassle of bringing the tips back (although of course, add a bit hypothetically to account for the tillering and shooting that will add some set) but if it's already over 2" and hasn't been shot or even tillered yet it might be worth gently straightening. I wouldn't flip the tips because you're instantly out of "English Warbow" territory (in fact, I don't even think it would be allowed in Warbow shoots if the tips are slightly flipped) but you can definitely bring the whole stave back straight or even with a hint of reflex if you apply heat carefully and in the right places.
Do it before you glue the plug in, of course, if you're going to.
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Hmmm... well I don't think I will be able to heat the whole stave as I've already plugged. I've also applied a very thin rawhide backing.
So the reflexed tips is a 'no-no' for English warbows eh? Well... It figures you can't trust the telly. I was just watching an English longbow documentary and the English bowyer boiled the tips and flipped them back... on a warbow.
I will try to measure the deflex.. but I'm thinking 1"
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Yeah, but that was Mike Loades' documentary, and anything he says needs to be taken with a HUGE pinch of salt...
Enthusiasm A+, accuracy.... Well. Ahem.
Here's the specs for the standard English warbow
Mary Rose Class Self yew bows in the “spirit of the original” MR bows:
- No shorter than the shortest MR bow (74” – to be confirmed);
- May be to any MR bow profile;
- Heat treatment may be used to straighten a stave but not to induce unnatural reflex (an unbraced bow shall not show any artificially induced reflex);
- Be full compass in tiller;
- Within the 5/8, depth/width rule along the length of the bow;
- Has some profile to the belly of the bow (i.e. not flat bellied); and has no handle grip/covering.
Don't worry about the deflex - it will shoot a bit sweeter, be easier to brace and at 80# you're not gonna be competing for distance anyway so that extra snap you'd get from a perfectly straight (or even reflexed) stave won't matter much.