Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Crogacht on June 21, 2014, 11:43:26 pm
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Hi guys,
I'm playing with another stave that I started awhile ago and wondered if I could get some advice before I go too far in the wrong direction like last time ::)
This is a stave from a small 2-3 inch Lancewood sapling, which is native to New Zealand. The wood is quite dense and hard, but seems fairly elastic. Lancewood seems to take a lot of set before failing, assuming you remove the ridges, and that brings me to the next bit.
Lancewood has very deep furows/ridges all over it running up the trunk and if you don't decrown it, the stess gets concentrated on the ridges and cracks. Shamusrobert has tried with the ridges on and ended up with cracks so I've taken his advice regarding that. Lancewood seems to be diffuse porous like many New Zealand natives, as I can't see any growth rings.
So with the removal of the ridges and the small diameter of the sapling, the width/thickness were basically already determined for me. It was probably never suitable for a bow, but I didn't know that back then, so I'll try and if it doesn't work, then back to Elm ;)
I'm leaving the handle stiff and it still has the ridges on it. If by some miracle this becomes a bow, I'll probably leave the handle as it is.
The stave is 70 inches ttt and has ended up with a slight reverse handle kind of a thing going on. I've drawn a picture of the cross-section of the limbs as (I think?) that will dictate the tiller shape.
There is no width taper until the last 4 - 6 inches, which I've left stiff, so I think that means I need a fairly elliptical tiller? Basically the opposite of a pyramid bow. But not sure.
I want to give myself as much of a chance of finishing this as possible (unlike the last one which was rushed and ruined), so I'll leave it alone for a few days and see what everyone thinks.
I think the left limb needs to be working more mid limb? The right limb I think is looking somewhat elliptical... but my eye for tiller is not good.
Thank you immensely for any help, its very much appreciated. The worst part about breaking a stave is feeling like you've wasted someones time who gave advice.
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SF IRS it have a reverse handle or am I seeing things
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I think the left limb needs to be working more mid limb? The right limb I think is looking somewhat elliptical... but my eye for tiller is not good.
I think your eye is just fine.
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SF IRS it have a reverse handle or am I seeing things
Yeah, like I said, it has a bit of a reverse handle thing going on :P
I'm not even sure why to be honest, I could have probably make it a normal handle, but for some reason that's what I did. Some combination of small diameter/ridge removal/poor thought process, but that's what I'm working with now ::)
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ok the left is only bending at the fade come out 10" and work it from there for now, and it look's like the right can use the same treatment for now stay away from the fades , have you got a gizmo or a 6" straight edge
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Thanks bubby,
That left limb is a little deflex-y too, so I have to keep that in mind too I suppose.
I will make up a gizmo and try it out.
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Tiller it whatever shape you want. Thickness taper is the main thing, The front profile is irrelevant (Others will strongly dissagree with this view tho' :o).
See this thread:-
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,45989.msg625332/topicseen.html#msg625332 (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,45989.msg625332/topicseen.html#msg625332)
Del
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Tiller it whatever shape you want. Thickness taper is the main thing, The front profile is irrelevant (Others will strongly dissagree with this view tho' :o).
See this thread:-
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,45989.msg625332/topicseen.html#msg625332 (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,45989.msg625332/topicseen.html#msg625332)
Del
It seems I'm forgetting things faster than I'm learning them. I read that blog post of yours about the subject and it made a lot of sense to me, but I guess I forgot it again since then ::)
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I've been pondering on this stave for a few days, and have a few questions before I continue with it tomorrow.
The bow is the same width from handle to ~ 5 inches before the tips where I've just narrowed it slightly, but left it thick. ie. it has no fades as such. Does this force me into a bendy handle design? Or do I just leave the fades alone from now on and have them bend just a little with a stiff handle?
I guess the real question is, can you substitute thickness for width in the fade area? I don't have the width, so if I leave it thick, will it achieve the same thing or will I end up with a lot of set?
If it's going to be a problem, I might take off the ridges from the handle too and make it kind of ELB design. I have the right shape and length for it, I guess... I'm kind of leaning towards that actually... then I can kinda get rid of that weird reverse handle thing I've got going on.
Semi-serious question: The stave is basically the middle of a small sapling, has it been stressed too much to flip it over so the back is now the belly? I've pulled it to about 30lb on the long string.
The more I think about ELB design for this stave, the more it makes sense. What do you guys think?
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I guess the real question is, can you substitute thickness for width in the fade area? I don't have the width, so if I leave it thick, will it achieve the same thing or will I end up with a lot of set?
The more I think about ELB design for this stave, the more it makes sense. What do you guys think?
Have my questions crossed over here? I think I pretty much already have an ELB design. Except my handle is a little too thick to get that slight flex going.
Am I considering changing the design to what it already basically was? ???
:o
Hopefully I'll be able to look back at these threads one day and laugh..
Trying to make a stick bend - it blows my mind ??? :laugh:
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Tiller it whatever shape you want. Thickness taper is the main thing, The front profile is irrelevant (Others will strongly dissagree with this view tho' :o).
See this thread:-
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,45989.msg625332/topicseen.html#msg625332 (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,45989.msg625332/topicseen.html#msg625332)
Del
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I think you're missing the point. Yes, YOU can tiller it whatever shape YOU want, regardless of the front profile. HOWEVER, the wood has it's limits. YOU may want to tiller a bow so it has two hinges, but if the wood cracks, you still don't have a bow. The wood also has its limits and desires! If you want the lowest chance of a broken bow, you need to spread out the forces over as big a surface as possible. In the front profile that is displayed here, that would mean the tiller shape should be elliptical. If the front profile were a pyramid, the tiller shape that spreads out the forces the most, is a circular tiller. So if you want the highest chance of survival for this bow, you need to create an elliptical tiller.
I'm not sure why you've left the ridges on the handle. It seem uncomfortable to me. I can't imagine these ridges will make a nice, smooth and round surface for your hand - even if covered in leather.
Of course you can let the bow bend in the handle! The bow doesn't know if you want a stiff or bendy handle. The bow just follows the laws of physics: wider or thicker profile means less bend there. Narrower handle can still mean a stiff handle, as long as it is thick enough to compensate. And if it doesn't bend, it can't take set. Your current width lay-out just simply matches the width profile for an English longbow. But if you leave the handle a bit thicker than the fades (say 1/8"), you'll instantly have a stiff handle. Physics.
Your tips are very square, rough and thick at the moment. You want the tips not to bend, obviously, but there's no point in leaving them this big. If you reduce the last 5" of the limb to a thickness and width of 5/8", they will still not bend. If you continue tillering with the tips like this, you'll have difficulty in getting the limbs to bend 6" to 8" from the tips, since there will be a weird transition from the bulky tips to the bending limb. Shape the tips now so they look like nearly finished tips: the sooner it looks like a bow, the sooner it acts like a bow. You should also shorten that long string a bit, so it applies a more realistic pressure on the bow. By the way, don't use a tiller gizmo on these kind of character staves with deflex and/or reflex. It will give you a false reading; it works best on straight limbed board bows.
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Darksoul I don't see any real Character on this stave and don't see reason why a gizmo wont work on it, I've used straight edges on wonkyer staves than this
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I don't see too much deflex either, but based on this:
That left limb is a little deflex-y too, so I have to keep that in mind too I suppose.
and the observation that the two limbs are not in a straight line (there appears to be deflex in the handle), I think you should be careful with that gizmo is this stave.
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My advice is to take it off the tree until its ready for such. I can tell by looking at it she is stiff as a board. Keep it on the floor and get it moving enough to low brace, then toss it up. Skip that long string all together. Gizmo or straight edge, use them! The problem with tree'ing a bow way too early is you end up pulling it too far too soon because 1-2" of tip movement does nothing and you want to see/check more. Grab a finished bow of glass or wood and flex the tip on the floor. You'll know better what to feel for that way.
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My advice is to take it off the tree until its ready for such. I can tell by looking at it she is stiff as a board. Keep it on the floor and get it moving enough to low brace, then toss it up. Skip that long string all together. Gizmo or straight edge, use them! The problem with tree'ing a bow way too early is you end up pulling it too far too soon because 1-2" of tip movement does nothing and you want to see/check more. Grab a finished bow of glass or wood and flex the tip on the floor. You'll know better what to feel for that way.
Totally! The sooner you develop a good eye for floor tillering the better your tillering and how quickly you can get a bow to "come around" gets.
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I dunno, I left the ridges on the handle because it looked kind of cool, but you're right, pretty impractical. I'll probably remove them.
Alright, I'll shape the tips a bit more. I wanted them to stay stiff but they probably don't need THAT much mass, you're right, Thanks Darksoul.
I thought I had it moving enough on the floor, but maybe not. I'm only pulling about 20lb in those pics. I don't have anything (other bows) to compare it to, but I'll try your other suggestions, Thanks Pearl Drums.
One more question: If I've pulled it to about 20lb on the tiller tree, as shown in the pictures, is it going to make any difference if I flip it over and make the belly the back and vice versa? All 4 sides on this stave have been worked, so there's no "back" as such, it's really just the centre of a sapling. I'm just thinking the handle is going to be better as a normal handle rather than a reverse handle.
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I read this question yesterday. I was confused then and now. Have you follow a continues unbroken ring on the back and the belly? I doubt that, so did you simply remove the bark all the way around the circumference and you have not touched it as far as any kind of tillering for weight removal?
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I read this question yesterday. I was confused then and now. Have you follow a continues unbroken ring on the back and the belly? I doubt that, so did you simply remove the bark all the way around the circumference and you have not touched it as far as any kind of tillering for weight removal?
The stave is from a 3 inch lancewood sapling, and lancewood has quite deep ridges running all the way up the trunk, so you have to remove them or you end up concentrating the stress along these ridges and they just crack. It's also diffuse porous. So not only can you not follow a ring because of the ridges, but it doesn't really have any rings anyway. Our native forests are basically topical/sub-tropical, so mostly dense, hard, diffuse porous wood.
The stave is basically a 3 inch sapling worked down on all sides probably. I'm not sure exact dimensions, but I have been gradually removing wood during floor tiller and I have just put it on the tree. The tips are moving about 4 inches at 20lb.
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I'm not familiar with the tropicals at all, so maybe they are different than our N American DP woods like Maple for example, but if the back does not have continues uncut fibers from tip to tip, I would suspect it wont take much to break it in tension. Don't know that wood, so I'll be watching to see how others see this.
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I'm not familiar with the tropicals at all, so maybe they are different than our N American DP woods like Maple for example, but if the back does not have continues uncut fibers from tip to tip, I would suspect it wont take much to break it in tension. Don't know that wood, so I'll be watching to see how others see this.
Yeah, unfortunately I can't get too much specific advice on obscure woods. All I can really find out about it myself is that it's "very hard". If I can finish a few bows I might have the experience to deal with unusual woods, but not sure how I'll go with this one. Will see I guess.
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I know the tiller is completely wrong. It's all hinges and flat spots and the fades are doing too much bending.
Although it raised a splinter, it didn't blow up like the last one, so I feel like I've kind of made progress...Or maybe lancewood just tolerates terrible tiller... I don't know. But I think I'll try this wood again one day and attempt to do it justice.
The stave will happily pull 35#@28" on the tiller tree, and it holds together fine, but I'm not brave enough to try a real full draw with an arrow. And that to me doesn't qualify as a bow.
So, I think I'll say "Thanks" for what I learnt from a 3 inch sapling with a completely violated back that held 35# @ 28" and still only complained with a wee splinter, and I'll set it on the shelf next to my first stave, an elm with a snapped in half lower limb to remind me of what I've learnt so far.
Thanks for all the advice on this one guys. It was wrong in pretty much every way, so thanks for being so kind, considering what I was working with :P :)
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Superglue the splinter down + rawhide back = bow (maybe) :)
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Kudos on several things. Number one for getting in the game and doing it. Amazing how that can lead you in all kinds of directions. Number two for recognizing some of your challenges and frankly mistakes on this one. That's growth and it can take you much farther on your next one. Were it me, I would set this one aside and start planning my next one, taking some of the things I've learned and incorporate them into the next build. Start with the basics. If you have TBB 1, read it cover to cover. If not get and read it cover to cover. Reread it if you already have read it, cover to cover. It covers the absolute fundamentals of this craft, and knowing those fundamentals is essential and will save you from all kinds of frustrations going forward. Good luck on the next one.
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Hard luck Ben, hope I didn't put you crook.
Our diffuse porous woods do have annual growth rings and will lift a splinter or snap if they are violated. Lancewood some how has a different growth structure but will still lift a splinter if violated to bad.I normally only decrown enough to remove the ridges then often back them with silk.
Get back on the horse theres plenty more lancewood out there that stave would of tourt you a lot.
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If you want advise from someone as green as you I would suggest making a few more Elm bows until you're more confident in your abilities. Then come back to the Lancewood and show it who's boss!
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Superglue the splinter down + rawhide back = bow (maybe) :)
I had read about people doing that, but this one is deep. Probably more of a minor crack than a major splinter, but it holds together at full draw so calling it a splinter saves my ego a little bit ;) ;D I'll just leave it I think.
Kudos on several things. Number one for getting in the game and doing it. Amazing how that can lead you in all kinds of directions. Number two for recognizing some of your challenges and frankly mistakes on this one. That's growth and it can take you much farther on your next one. Were it me, I would set this one aside and start planning my next one, taking some of the things I've learned and incorporate them into the next build. Start with the basics. If you have TBB 1, read it cover to cover. If not get and read it cover to cover. Reread it if you already have read it, cover to cover. It covers the absolute fundamentals of this craft, and knowing those fundamentals is essential and will save you from all kinds of frustrations going forward. Good luck on the next one.
Appreciate it SLIMBOB. My first two staves have been nasty ones, but I feel like I've got about 6 broken bows worth of experience out of them, so I'm not too worried about it. Definitely lots of mistakes on this one.
My next elm is ready to have the centreline drawn and roughed out now, so I'll be back into it this weekend :D I'll be making up some cauls/forms and getting her nice and straight this time. My first elm had prop twist, knots, lateral bend and one deflexed limb, so I'm going to try and correct that this time to make my job a bit easier. It seems like really nice wood though, I like it.
Yep, I have all 4 TBB, and I reread them constantly, the problem is remembering and applying everything at once :P There's so much good info in there.
Thanks SLIMBOB, I need it.
Hard luck Ben, hope I didn't put you crook.
Our diffuse porous woods do have annual growth rings and will lift a splinter or snap if they are violated. Lancewood some how has a different growth structure but will still lift a splinter if violated to bad.I normally only decrown enough to remove the ridges then often back them with silk.
Get back on the horse theres plenty more lancewood out there that stave would of tourt you a lot.
Thanks Rob. Definitely not, I think you're 100% right on the Lancewood.
This one was only 3 inches at the widest point, and from what I've seen the smaller they are, the worse the ridges are. There's a big one at the park and the ridges are very shallow. They were so deep on this one, that by the time I had taken them off, I reckon I was left with a 50 lb bow, and that's BEFORE any tillering or anything. So I think it was going to be pretty difficult at my skill level to get a decent bow.
Ok, I didn't know that, but I'll have a much closer look next time. I've got a couple more elm staves then I'll be back to native for a bit, probably black beech.
Yep, Thanks Rob, I wasn't very happy when I broke my elm, but this one didn't really bother me, I hadn't expected to get that far with it, but learnt some more good stuff, so it's all good.
If you want advise from someone as green as you I would suggest making a few more Elm bows until you're more confident in your abilities. Then come back to the Lancewood and show it who's boss!
Hahaha, you should see my elm ;) But I agree, everyone around here has experience with it and can offer advice at least. Hope your bow making is going well Don.