Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: bushboy on June 21, 2014, 05:51:04 pm
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I've never made a sapling bow before.this is still fairly green and so am I when it comes to stave bows.my questions aredoes it have to be a bendy D ,or would a stiff handle work as well?should I keep the belly flat or oval.I'm looking to get at least 50@28".is there enough wood here to acheive that?should I decrown it?I make most of mine 62"ttt.thx's rob!
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Never done an elm sapling bow, but if its anything like yew or ocean spray, leave the handle section as is, and only remove wood from the belly. If its big enough, which it looks like it is, I'd remove wood to the pith, seal the ends and the handle section, and strap it to a 2x4. Saplings don't take long to dry
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Don't decrown it. That myth has run its course. And make the belly flat.
50#,,,?? Iffy. Make sure it's dry before you start tillering.
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Elm saplings make great bows. 1 1/8" diameter 58" ntn 55# @ 26"
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Nice stick bushy. My fave for sapling bows. Id leave the handle round and natural. Just make fades off each end of a 4" handle. You can easily get 50# with it. Temper it and keep the starting reflex under 2". Leave it straight as well, no flipping. Let the whole bow work except the handle of course. No de-crowning.
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I built many Sapling bows thsi winter, and this elm could be turned into a great piece of wood!
Don't decrown it, and make the belly flat, just a little bit oval.
Dry it carefully or maybe it will crack in the handle during drying.
Good luck man!
Benedikt
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Thx's 4 the replies guys!I roughed it out like suggested and the lower limb has some reflex and the upper has a kink of deflex about 10" from the tip. Should I remove both the reflex and deflex or reflex the upper to match the lower?I can tell right away this bow has a good deal of draw weight.thx's!
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I think it would be easier to tiller if you took that deflex out and reflexed that limb to match the other one. That elm stick could make a good bow!
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I would reflex them to match if possable. :) You can make a bow either way but sure make things simpler if you start out with the limbs pretty even. :) Never done an Elm sapling but have done several Hickory's and they make a sweet simple bow. :)
Pappy
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Sapling bows should be left a few inches longer to counter act the crown. 62" for a 28 " draw is short. 68" nock to nock is good but I think it is already cut down.
You may want to back it with linen. The tension stress (back) is concentrated right down the middle.
Made lots of sapling bows.
Jawge
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Jawgey I think a high tension low compression wood like elm benefits from the round back, it gives that poor belly a break. Similar to "trapping" a bow. Ive only used elm and HHB for saplings.
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I agree with Pearly. Elm is a really tension strong wood and can easily handle the high crown of a sapling. An elm flatbow is best made with a trapped back. I've made one elm longbow from a 2" diameter elm sapling and was impressed by it. It took barely any set and the wood looks as fresh as ever. I also rounded the belly a little bit, to not put all the stress on the back. I made an oval cross section, with a slightly more crowned back. I agree with George that 68" is a good length for a 28" draw, although 70" also wouldn't hurt. Make it bend through the handle either way. Much easier in a sapling than a stiff handle.
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All of my best performing elm bows have come from small diameter saplings. upto about 6 inch at most.
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PD, doesn't matter what you are bending if the back is round then the tension is concentrated down the middle.
Sure, some woods, like elm, are better able to handle that tension. Nevertheless, to be cautious leave the sapling stave a few inches than normal is my advice.
Sure trapping would help.
Elm does not grow around here but it used to back in the 50's. Dutch elm disease wiped them out. A very few varieties have been found to be resistant though so maybe it will make a comeback. Haven't made many from elm.
You may be right, PD. Perhaps, elm is the only example on earth that would contradict the principles of physics. :)
Jawge
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You lost me on that comment Jawgey.
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Jawge and Pearl, you both have valid points: Wood is 3 to 4 times stronger in tension than compression, but there is a point where a the back of a sapling is so highly crowned that less than a third of it's back is doing the tension work.
However, the few sapling bows I have had fail all failed by chrysalling, meaning the back was stronger than the belly.
Pearl, the narrow crown, or the narrowed back of a trapazoidal cross section turns out to help performance by reducing limb weight--in tension, wood has almost no stretch before breaking. So, it doesn't hold that we are balancing the elasticity of back and belly (as I believed until shown otherwise in testing literature). We just don't need as much wood on the back to be as strong as the belly.
Jim Davis
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Now, Jim, I never disagreed about the trapezoidal shape nor did I ever disagree that most woods are stronger in tension. Just want to set the record straight. :)
Jawgey
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Something I have never been able to figure is how the tension distributes itself to the compression wood. Does it go straight down or does it angle out? My feeling is that it angles on slightly. If thats the case you may have an 80# running down the middle with 10# bows along the edges and it averages out to 50#, the thicker wood is doing more than its share. The tension wood has to have some stretch to it just to be able to bend it, I have no idea how much.
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To throw in my very small experience, I had about the same sapling, and tried to split it, I was 180 from top to bottom. I roughed out a 48 ntn short bow, and decided to back it with bamboo. After 3 days of drying I put it on the rack, and worked it a bit, when I gave it a bit more the bamboo broke, not the elm. Tough stuff.
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To throw in my very small experience, I had about the same sapling, and tried to split it, I was 180 from top to bottom. I roughed out a 48 ntn short bow, and decided to back it with bamboo. After 3 days of drying I put it on the rack, and worked it a bit, when I gave it a bit more the bamboo broke, not the elm. Tough stuff.
If you look carefully at the belly where the bamboo back broke, I'm sure you will find there was a compression failure. With an unviolated back, there is never a tension failure UNTIL there has already been a compression failure. The belly will not necessarily be in two pieces, but it will be crushed.
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Now, Jim, I never disagreed about the trapezoidal shape nor did I ever disagree that most woods are stronger in tension. Just want to set the record straight. :)
Jawgey
Jawge, you speak truth, as always. I was pointing out that you were also correct about narrow backs and that there is a point at which one has to compensate for a high crowned back--such as you mentioned, by making the bow longer than usual.
Jim
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Guess we have to let the young'uns find out for themselves all these things we've spent years learning, Jim. It's almost time for the Pokenhope. Gonna miss ya. :(Jawge
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Ill figure it out one day guys. Give me some time!
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Ill figure it out one day guys. Give me some time!
I don't know Pearly - I think you're a hopeless case! ;) :P >:D
OneBow
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Guess we have to let the young'uns find out for themselves all these things we've spent years learning, Jim. It's almost time for the Pokenhope. Gonna miss ya. :(Jawge
Or its time for us young'uns to show the some of the old timers things that have been unnecessary for years 8).
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This one is cut down to 66" ttt ,so maybe it will survive?
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I would make it a slight D section to take some stress off the back. The one I made a few years ago from a 2" D sapling lifted a splinter on the back with a flat belly.
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Sure, Paul, that's it for sure. :)
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;) ;D ;D ;D
Pappy
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I would take years of experience over "New" things more than not. Not all old things are the best way, but there is probably a reason that it has been done like that for so long. Woodworking in a traditional manner is just that, you really can't improve on how something was done 50 or 100 years ago and still consider it "Traditional". If I were given the opportunity to learn from some of these "Old timers" I would jump at the chance.
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Again, ;) :D :D :D
Pappy
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JoJo, I agree with you.
I remember thinking when I got to be around 25 years old that my Dad sure got really smart all of a sudden.
Wish he was around still so he could make me as smart as he was.
I heard this on TV the other day and adapted this great idea. When it comes to primitive archery, look into the past and you will see our future. :)
Jawge
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I knew my comment would stir it up :) And I'm certainly not taking anything away from anyone. But I do know that SOME things done 20 years ago have been rethought and found better ways. I have learned a lot from the past but have also learned a lot from newer guys. Example: Cody aka misslemaster is in his early 20's. He is half if not a third in age to most guys on here. Anyone that has seen his work knows what the youth is capable of. He follows a lot of old values but also pushes the norm. Sorry Cody but I had to give credit to you. Cody's not the only young guy on here doing it. I believe the book on archery is being written everyday and am always willing hear out a new opinion ;)
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Paul, everyone that contributes to these forums contributes to the advancement of the art of bowyering. Cody has been an inspriration for such a young guy, Cody will also be the first to tell you that he is well studied in the theories and work of his predacessors. The work that went into developing styles and tecniques was a long process. Once the process is established you can pass that on to someone in a very short period of time. Hopefully each generation of bowyers takes what they learned and discovered or improved on it as they go. I really don't like the idea of disrespecting people like Jawge who have paid their dues and worked very hard to help bring archery to where it is today.
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I speak/type from experience, but I wont argue.... very often. I just build what I build and post some of them here. It just so happens my experiences are different sometime. This is a fine example. Ive made a good batch of short, higher stressed, very high crown sapling bows with great results. Haven't broke a one. Am I lucky? Hell I don't know, but it works fine and I wont be reverting anytime soon.
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Steve respect should be given to all until its not deserved anymore.
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No disrespect from me in any way. I've read and appreciate all he has done. Also appreciate anyone trying/ thinking of something different/new
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Pearl, disagreeing with anyone is fine, I do that all the time. Jawge and I went at it this week over some little issue. But thats not the same as disrespecting someone.
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Did disrespect him? He made a jab and so did I. That's all it was
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I apologise if I over reacted, but I have seen a trend of younger guys disrespecting their older peers and I just wasnt raised like that.
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Paul, I'm not "stirred" up. LOL.
I taught middle/high school chem/science for 35 years.
It takes a lot to get me going.
I also raised 2 wonderful daughters with the help of God and my "village". It does take a village.
PD, and I have fun on here. If I could not I'd be long gone and you guys would be forced to fend for yourselves. :)
Yes, Badger, we have had some discussions over the years and I like them. :)
I'm also a 17 year internet veteran.
Come to think of it I'm also a USAR veteran.
That about tops all of the above for difficulty.:)
My Army caused bad knee (hospital ...11 days) reminded me of that this morning.
But I'm all the better for it and did not go through much compared to others.
Jawge
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The good news is we probably wont ever see or touch each others work Jawgey. The world may never know!
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PD, that is not good news. I've talked on here with so many wonderful people. I've met some like Badger, Tim Baker and others and I am fortunate to have done so.
The only bad thing about these forums is we can't meet and talk. The sharing has to take place this way but that's the way it goes.
Jawge
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Now we have a point of viable disagreement.
I was always taught and always taught my daughters to give respect. Please note no ryder is attached to that. Respect is just always given.
I like to joke around and do not take a whole lot seriously and for that I apologize.
:)
Jawge
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Send me a 28" draw bow Jawgey and Ill send you one. Then we can burn that part of the bridge between Michigan eh' and New Hampsha'.
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Send me a 28" draw bow Jawgey and Ill send you one. Then we can burn that part of the bridge between Michigan eh' and New Hampsha'.
...and post PIX!
OneBow
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PD, I dunno. Sending bows is not meeting.
There's no bridge on my side of the road.
Not fair anyway.
I'd get the better of that deal. :) Jawge