Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Shooter on January 01, 2008, 05:07:23 pm
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For us newbs, please be patient ;D I'm not trying to start a war or even an argument. It's just that I was a little confused reading that other thread. Questions started rolling.
Is it OK to use a heat gun, belt sander, bandsaw, etc, in procuring 'primitive' bows? What about epoxies, resins and the like?
If I use TBIII, For example, how different is that from using glue I might make myself from hooves, skins and snouts?
What if I use synthetic fibers to make strings to shoot arrows made from aluminum or carbon and plastic with my 'traditional' bow?
Personally, all I use is a table saw, and sometimes a jig saw for power tools, a few files hand planes and scrapers, tightbond and white carpenter's glue, and natural oils and stains. But I don't look down my schnorchel at folks who use more power tools than I use, or resins and epoxies...or even fiberplastics.
I think most primitive bowyers from back in the day would scratch their heads if they saw us shunning any modern material or method/process that would make our bows better. They'd be incensed if we told them it was a no-no to adopt new technologies and to evolve their methods. Hey, I'm just playing devil's advocate here...
So what do you think? Where do you draw the line personally?
Hoping this will be a productive and friendly discussion. No potshots please.
Looking forward to reading your thoughts.
TIA
Bruce
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Bruce, Traditional archery is using longbows and recurves regardless of the material used to make them.
Primitive means that natural materials are used for the bow. Wood, bamboo, sinew, silk are examples of natural materials. There are some concessions that are made to allow in Primitive. All glues and finishes are allowed as are decorations. But the working parts of the bow are to be natural. As for tools, anything goes really. There are a few guys who can make a bow using stone age tools, I call them stone bows. Those guys are the true craftsmen/artists of primitive archery. Justin
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this should be interetsing. most everything done on this site is early traditional, from the pope and young, howard hill, fred bear era. the reason its called primitive is to seperate it from modern traditional, ie. glass bows. we really should call it natural archery seeing as we strive to use as much natural material as possible. several of us build bows with aboriginal tools so thats about as primitive as it gets but even that can be considered natural cause its still for our hobby and we really dont need it to live. looking forward to respomses to this thread. lets all remain level headed ok. ;D
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That's great. Thanks a lot, Justin.
I hope this isn't redundant to the thread about self bows. I didn't want to lead that thread astray with my own silly musings.
Bruce
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Bruce, I agree with your thoughts and the tone of your message. We're all of us individuals and as such have different opinions involving this hobby we enjoy. What is considered a challenge by one individual is not considered so by another, and that is only natural.
I have the greatest respect for those that make the decision to only work only with primitive tools and materials throughout the entire bow making process from cutting down the tree and splitting the logs, to making their own natural bow strings to use on the finished bow. If that person were ever in the position of having to make a bow without modern tools in order to survive, they may have the experience to do so where I might perish trying. :)
I personally don't have the patience or desire to go that route, and enjoy making bows using todays modern tools. I think that's ultimately what it's about anyways...the enjoyment and personal feeling of satisfaction of making a wooden bow by whatever means you wish. If someone wants to call a bow I've made primitive, that's fine with me. If they think it's not primitive due to the process I used to make it, and instead want to call it "traditional", that's also fine with me. It is more important to me that they feel it is well made and pleasing to the eye, regardless of the fabrication method used. ;)
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Bruce,about every 6 months this question comes up on this board. And the same replies follow and it goes on and on and you end up with no real answer to your question. Everybody has their own opinion as to what "Primitive" is. My advice is to make bows, arrows, chip points learn new things and most of all ,have fun. In the long run, your question of what makes a Primitive bow will not help you in making one.
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Thank you for sharing your thoughts, gents.
I know it's a newb query and I appreciate your patience, Eddie. And your points are VERY well taken.
hmmm...the central theme here seems to be the fun factor.
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I don't think you'll find any one definition, as everybody said, we're doing it for fun. Maybe most of us are closer to "homemade" archery. :) I guess I would consider true primitive archery to be using all natural tools and materials, and to be the real thing, probably within the context of a "primitive" society. I enjoy making equipment and bows using everything from stone tools to power tools, depending on the mood I'm in and the reason for the project that I'm working on. Most of my bows are made with a mix of hand and power tools. If I was trying to create a true replica bow to see if I could reproduce it, I would try to use the tools and materials available to the culture who made it. I make all my arrows from scratch, and usually hunt with stone points that I knap myself. I do often use modern glues and finishes, and most of my bowstrings are made from B-50 dacron. I have made strings from rawhide, sinew, and plant fibers, and will again, but for everyday shooting and hunting, I prefer a mix of primitive and modern. I have practiced primitive skills enough to do everything the old way if I need to or want to, down to making the stone tools and using them, and making glue with rocks heated on a fire spun from a hand drill but I usually don't need to or want to. :) I do stuff like that when I'm in the mood for fun or a challenge, but it's good to know that you could if you had to.
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hmmm...the central theme here seems to be the fun factor.
You are a quick learner.
Like everybody said, its more of a personal definition. I was refering more to the rules we try to post by on this site. Justin
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I will have to say that a bow built with powertools is not primitive in my book, but traditional.
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I first heard the word primitive as it applies to bows when I bought a computer. Tim Baker and I were talking last night, he considers paleo back in the stone ages, I consider paleo pre- fiberglass. I just like all wood bows and don't really care what they are called, primitive and paleo groups just seem to be the ones for me to most closely identify with. I will admit that the more experience I get the less I lean toward power tools and seem to prefer hand tools more and more whenever time will allow. steve
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For me it seems to be a process of backwards evolution. I am slowly using less and less modern materials and am experimenting with natural string materials. My goal is to do away with the laminated longbow and go strictly primitive as well as build a backwards style selfbow from a small dia. tree using stone tools. Not using modern glues/epoxies/finishes. Now this isn't because of my hobby of building bows but because of my love of hunting. Make any sense? Even though I love building primitive bows I would still say the percentage lays somewhere around 35% building primitive equip. / 65% hunting -----trying to put myself in the footsteps of an ancient hunter---thats where I see the goal for myself. Just easing into it slowly :)
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Like Glenn, I'm working my way backwards. I want to eventually see how simple I can make it and still be effective. I build wood bows and hardwood shoot and cane arrows because I enjoy it. I like knowing I can compete with the traditional glass guys and the high tech wheel guys in hunting situations and that I have made most of the stuff with my own hands. I am more of an archer than a hunter although I love hunting and with my stuff...I just don't kill much.
Probably the reason we all call this primitive archery is because Primitive Archer Magazine sponsors this site. It is definitely traditional archery and I make it as primitive as I want cause thats what I want to do. I also use a band saw, belt sander, B-50 strings, 2 part epoxy, super glue, spray poly and other modern materials but my heart is primitive. Most of the work I do on bows and arrows is with hand tools and a very little with stone. I would say the definition of primitive would be...making what you need with what you have to work with...or can trade for! 8) Pat
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If Primitive people had a bandsaw i bet they would use it.. than again if primitive people had a gun i bet they would use it too.. ;D
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Maybe what is being defined is a subclass called Modern primitve, although I think Hillbilly hit the nail on the head, it's homemade archery is what it is and thats what makes it so satisfying. Just like growin yer own veggies and home cooking, there aint nuthin better. Danny
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Hi, I never heard the term "primitive archery" until I started going to 3D shoots. I was just having fun trying to make my own equipment. For competition purposes it makes sense to break the field into different classes and once you do that you have to name the classes. From that standpoint "primitive" makes sense. After all it's just a label!
Outside of competition I think it makes a lot less sense to worry about labels or classes. I'm guessing that most of are a lot more concerned with building and using equipment that we feel happy with, than we are with labeling it. Ron
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Here is the answer!!!
"Modern primitive archery"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_archery#Modern_primitive_archery
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"Modern primitive archery" I like it! Oooga ooga ooga. Ron
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In my mind, primitive archery is done with all primitive methods, for all primitive reasons. Stone and bone tools, made with antler billets and stone, natural string, and arrows, to kill game for staying alive :)!
I prefer practicing "homemade" archery- just like Hillbilly said. I use steel hand tools and a vice to make bows, and a drill and power saw to make my arrows. I like trade points, and a paracord string. I just like making the best (and easiest) hunting gear possible ;D.
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I think Ted Fry coined the term, "Classical Archery", for archery equipment made in the metal age from natural materials. The English longbows, Pope & Young era, etc. That title certainly fits what I make.
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Maybe most of us are closer to "homemade" archery. :)
Yours may be home made, mine are more like "piss poor made". They will kill, hopefully not the archer though. :o Justin
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This is just my opinion. Organizers should allow much latitude in setting up events. So prim class and bow w/o glass is ok. Any wooden arrow is ok. Plastic nocks ok. BTW "primitive" to me is pre Industrial. Thus metal trade points are ok because the were used by the Native Americans.
"Is it OK to use a heat gun, belt sander, bandsaw, etc, in procuring 'primitive' bows?" Yes, but the final tillering should be done by hand. Hand tools do impact the belly design. Try to use a hand tool on a belly. It is almost impossible to keep it completely flat. Hand tools work better on a slightly curved or curved surface.
"What about epoxies, resins and the like?"
Yes, as long as they do not contribute to the functionality of the bow. So using a modern glue for the handle covering is ok. Using a modern glue to back a bow is not.
Jawge
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"What if I use synthetic fibers to make strings to shoot arrows made from aluminum or carbon and plastic with my 'traditional' bow?"
No, not in my view. I confess to loving B 50 too.
Only wood for arrows. Must be selfnocked.
Just m opinion.
Jawge
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I guess I am where Adam is,that describes me well,as far as shoot we go with
what jawge's has laid out.It's pretty simple and most cases it the shooter anyway.
We get a few complants from some real hard core guys but not many.I also
agree with carbon and aluminum out of a selfbow,just can't hardly stand it. :)
Pappy
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For me Traditional Archery start's with Horace.A.Ford and his horribly effective anchor point (Grrrrr!).
http://www.stickbow.com/stickbow/history/horace-ford.html
(http://www.cheltenhamarchers.net/www/images/ford_pic.jpg)
From His Book 'Archery, its Theory and Practice'.
Use your brains as well as your muscles - study as well as practice. Brute force alone will never make an archer. . . I would now additionally impress on upon him the absolute necessity of perseverance and a command of temper. Without these essentials he will never become eminent as an archer - neither the idle nor the irritable need hope for success here."
But i'm mainlly interested in Historical Bows,especially English WarBows which are a hole different animal to a 'Traditional' Butt Bow or ELB as they get called,yet there not Paleo bows either.?.
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Oh, one last note-
I build my stuff for fun, but also for hunting. I don't really think the deer/turkey/evil tree rats care about what we call it;D!
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if i had a bandsaw, i'd use one. i make my bows at home with a drawknife, farrier's rasp, nicholson 4 in 1 rasp, and a cabinet scraper are my 4 main tools. I hand-sand with paper. i don't personally like the "traditional" label on all wood bows 'cause that tends to group them with the glass lam jobs. Where so you draw the line though? i don't think you can. my rasps were made in a modern factory, my drawknife is 100 years old but i use sandpaper made in a factory. I personally switched to wood bows because a love the challenge, and because i've seen a 500 dollar compound get dropped from a treestand. heh. you all know the outcome of that.
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"Modern primitive archery" I like it! Oooga ooga ooga. Ron
Hmmmmm...modern primative to me is a term for those ultra-pierced folks you see, with millions of tribal tattoes and enough rings in their lips that you can hoist them up into the air. :) They are often clerks in convenience stores or record stores, lol. Sometimes, they use jello to dye their hair bright green or blue or red.
I hope this makes sense, but primitive is a state of mind, for me in any case. When I work with a hand plane or a rasp or a draw knife, I tend to feel a bit of kindship with those who would not have known electrical tools, even if I am using an electiric light on my workbench, and the house is heated by natural gas, etc. It is being willing to slow way down and learn to become one with a hand tool, and working with the materials instead of making them conform to a predetermined state. It is also striving to make an object of functional beautfy, which our society isn't perhaps much into, such as cell phones, throw away appliances, plastics, and all that stuff.
Dane
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Primitive generally implies the first of it's kind. So the tools and techniques used to make the first bows are primitive.
Traditional generally implies customs handed down the generations. To me this would not mean modern fiberglass or compound bows which have been around a realtively short time in the 10,000+ year history of archery.
Don't know if anyone agrees with me or not but that's my guess.
Now we all have to decide where on the continum we choose to be between making our bows with sharp stones and buying a new Hoytt Carbon Element (which I own and is sweet BTW;). To me it's all about challenge and the amount of work that goes into it. The more work something is the more gratifying it is. I try to do some things as primitively as possible because it's rewarding but I don't always have the time for that and that's fine to. No need to look down on those without the time or paitence to be very primitive. But it is admirable to see some put in the time and work to "do it the hard way". ;-) Just my 2c
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Primitive or Traditional.... i have labeled my gear both ways.... mostly, I am CHEAP! I get a smug feeling when I compare how much I have invested in my gear and what a modern consumer pays for his. Seriously, I think the labels don't matter much as long as it pleases you. Whatever tools you use, there is great satisfaction in building your own bows and arrows. Of course, I use my gear for hunting and haven't attended any formal shoots where lines have to be drawn. I have built bows with hand tools only and with power tools. I must admit that the one I am most proud of is an ugly little hickory bow built with a hatchet and a pocket knife and strung with a squirrel rawhide string. In this fast paced, high tech, "oh well, we'll just go buy another one" world that we live in, I think lots of us are drawn to a simpler and more meaningful existence. Primitive or Traditional Archery is good way to tap into that and get a little peace of mind.
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I agree fully with HR. I have always thought of the distinction as "Traditional" being whatever is massed produced in the way of longbows and recurves as opposed to primitives that are made on an individual basis. I hate the commercialization of archery and take great pride in beating them at their own game. I'm currently working on a primitive recurve, where I slightly bent the tips back. Certainly a recurve, but nothing that would scream "traditional". As for tools, my time is very limited and I use whatever saves me the most, though once you reach a certain point and a certain number of shootable bows, you will realize there is no longer a great rush to finish any of them. Personally I would love to make my own arrows as well, and while I have tried it a couple of times, I have only confirmed to myself that I don't have time to do it well, at least until I get to retirement.
I started with a compound bow, moved to "traditonal" until I began asking myself what the difference is between fiberglass and cams. Also hunting with a "traditional" bow is no easier than hunting with a primitive and I realized that the only thing I was doing was depriving myself of the thrill of hunting with a bow I made myself. I ended up donating about 2K worth of recurves and longbows to the Boy Scouts in order to make sure I would fully commit to making my own (I know my own failings, especially when time is a factor). It's simply too easy to tell myself that I don't have time today to work on a bow and grab an assembly line version from the closet in order to shoot a few arrows.
I'm a long way from being the purist that many of the people here are, but I would recommend that you start slowly rolling back the clock and not worry about the tools or methods you use until you get comfortable with each level of it all. The biggest achivement you can make, has already been done. You're on this site and you're beginning to ask questions about archery and what constitutes archery. Welcome on board and just don't give up. It will all come together for you, you just have to be really stubborn. That's a trait we probably all share here.
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If you don't use power tools, eventually, your arms become "power tools", ;D.
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Compared to the hi-tech equipment that dominates the range that I frequent, the bows that I show up with are certainly "primitive". But it's not really primitive in the pure sense if you use modern tools (like I do). So when people ask what kind of bows I make I just say "wood bows"...
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Not much to add here, but perhaps...
I think intention is also important. A lot of us got to making wood bows because we intended to be more primitive. Might not have made it all the way (stone adzes and whatnot) but it starts folks on a path. Not that primitive is only a state of mind, but for me at least making wood bows is a chance to put off my technology laden self, and put on my primitive self.
GAbe