Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: SeanStuart on June 04, 2014, 11:09:03 am
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Hello all. First post so I thought I would jump right in.
I am building my first bow and should probably read a lot more but will proceed with the ole trial and error method. More fun.
It will be a laminated longbow. I am using a red oak board for the belly and curly maple for the back. I understand curly maple may splinter or crack, but it is so nice, I want to use it. Plus it is already on hand.
I am planning to cut the back from the spot in the picture marked. Does this look like the best spot?
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Why would you build your first bow knowing the materials are inferior for a wood bow?
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I know the wood will make a bow.
I have this wood in the garage left over from something else, so I do not have to buy anything to give it a try.
I don't believe my first attempt at a bow will be a huge success so using somewhat sub-standard parts, that do not cost me anything, makes a certain amount of sense to me.
Do you think that is the best spot to cut the back? Thanks.
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First of all welcome aboard. We've heard this same logic many times from newbies to bowbuilding but it just doesnt make sense. There is no good spot to cut a backing strip on that board. The first couple of feet look ok but there are quite a few run-ups on the other end. There is a lot of time and effort that goes into making a bow so you owe it to yourself to start out with materials that give you the best chance at making a decent bow. If you want to jump right in do yourself a favor and go to a local lumberyard and find yourself a straight grained hickory board.
P.S.Curly maple is probably one of the worst options for a backing strip.
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Call me crazy, but that oak board might make a self bow. I don't like the "kinks", but I'd be tempted to try it myself.
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Ok I did some more reading and understand what you gents are saying. Save the maple for something else. Thanks for your patients with a noob.
Problem is, I can't just go get something else. Closest decent lumber is 1-1/2 hours each way, which kinda kills the day.
EZC that board is a 1X3, so only 3/4 inch thick. I would need to build up the handle a bit, but would I be better off attempting a self bow from that oak? Is 3/4 thick enough to start with?
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Where are you located? If anyone on here is close they may help you. You could potentially trade for a straight grained board fairly easy too. I need to check some of my boards to send to someone on here you can have one if I can find a good straight one. I have primarily white oak.
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There's plenty of wood in that oak board, two inches wide at the fades and straight taper to half inch tips, 68" long either a four inch handle and two inch long fades, get the limb thickness down to half a inch as a good starting point
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That Red oak looks a lot better for building a bow with, use your curly maple to build up the handle with, and for the tip overlays. I think the curly maple on the oak will look nice and give some contrast.
Grady
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Or follow Jawge's red oak bendy handle build along
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http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,35312.0.html
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/
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EZC that board is a 1X3, so only 3/4 inch thick. I would need to build up the handle a bit, but would I be better off attempting a self bow from that oak? Is 3/4 thick enough to start with?
Absolutely! That's what most board bows are made from. You can choose to make it bend through the handle or build it up with another piece of wood -- that's up to you.
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I like the bend through the handle, but I think I will go with bubby's build-a-long. It just looks too easy, with a nice finished product. Looks like a good weekend. Thanks all.
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Read the one reply wrong for some reason, thought it was a 1x2. With a 1x3 you'd be better off making it stiff handled.
Sounds like you're on the right track now! I just finished up a board bow that I'm quite happy with.
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Hey. I cut the bow today and roughed the shape. I have been stretching it and I don't see any more areas that need work. I would greatly appreciate any criticism or comments. Thanks.
Edit: I am using paracord, so it's a bit wonky, this is at 16 inches and it is about 25#. I think it might wind up being too much bow for me at this point.
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you need to do some scraping about a foot from the fades out on both limbs, bending a little to much inside, use a six inch straight edge to check it with, when it's bending evenly the gap between wood and straight edge will be constant, what is the bow braced to
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You got a really good eye. Thanks.
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it's not looking to bad, just bending a bit much at the fades, I clean mine up, then do like I told you and start a foot or so out and i'll tiller back towards the fades later
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I scraped the limbs a bit more, and used the straight edge. I increased the draw a bit at a time and repeatedly drew the bow 20 or 30 times each increase. I took it out to a field and shot a few arrows just drawing about 3/4 of the way. On the 7th or 8th it cracked.
Maybe I didn't work it enough, or had too much wood out far on the limbs, so it was putting too much stress on the fades? Or maybe the wood had a weak spot there. If you see anything in the pics, please share. Thanks.
Hmm. Gonna need another chunk of wood!
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I wouldn't necessarily it was a problem with the wood. Looks like a "forced" run out from where the handle narrowed. No doubt that there is a run out, but had the bow been full width there it wouldn't have been a problem -- but that wasn't really doable. I had a board bow break there last fall. I wrapped it and the fix held, but later the bow broke somewhere else.
The wood was working too hard there. It's easy to see in the tillering picture. And next time make sure the edges around the back are rounded some more as well.
Consider these lessons learned.
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I'm gonna be straight up with you. You messed up the tiller and made classical beginner's mistakes with that handle. Bubby has been too kind by telling you that the bow was bending a bit too much in the handle. It was bending only in the handle. You were already bending in too far in that tiller pic. You should have drastically corrected that tiller before pulling it any more. Also, that glued on handle is too short and did not extend past the fade. Typical design flaw. This bow did not break because of bad wood. It was bending too much in the handle, and because the bow was getting narrower in the fade but not thicker, it broke right in the fade. If you'd been more patient and waited for more people to comment on the tiller, you could at least have corrected the tiller earlier on. Your handle still would have been too short, but that could have been compensated for by lowering the draw weight. Next time, reconsider the handle layout, spend a lot more time tillering, round the corners, do not shoot it pre maturely and select your wood more carefully.
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Thanks ezc. I see your points, and I was looking at that point when I cut the board away from above and below the handle.
Lotta good stuff here DarkSoul.
I'm gonna be straight up with you. You messed up the tiller and made classical beginner's mistakes with that handle. Bubby has been too kind by telling you that the bow was bending a bit too much in the handle. It was bending only in the handle.
Is there a rule of thumb, or estimate of how much the thickness of the limb should decrease from handle to nock, or is every board different? For example 25% decrease or something similar, or what have you found to work in the past?
You were already bending in too far in that tiller pic. You should have drastically corrected that tiller before pulling it any more.
First bow so I wasn't really sure what to look for other than a smooth bend with no flat spots or hinges. It is also difficult to pull it down and then step back to look at it without seeing it actually bend. I guess next time I'll get someone to pull it down so I can watch.
Also, that glued on handle is too short and did not extend past the fade. Typical design flaw.
I do not think the handle was too short when I glued it on, I just cut too much off. Same thing I guess.
This bow did not break because of bad wood. It was bending too much in the handle, and because the bow was getting narrower in the fade but not thicker, it broke right in the fade. If you'd been more patient and waited for more people to comment on the tiller, you could at least have corrected the tiller earlier on. Your handle still would have been too short, but that could have been compensated for by lowering the draw weight.
Next time, reconsider the handle layout, spend a lot more time tillering, round the corners, do not shoot it pre maturely and select your wood more carefully.
I thought the back was supposed to remain mostly flat. What does rounding the corners do?
This bow did not break because of bad wood.... select your wood more carefully. Seems like you need to choose one. What don't you like about the wood?
Thanks for your observations.
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I think the problem was in shooting it to be honest. As DarkSoul has already pointed out, the tiller needed a lot of work, but that's normal at this stage. Easily corrected. However, shooting it put a whole load of stress and shock through an unfinished bow so any potential weak spots were made to do a whole lot of work. With the tiller the way it was, there would have been a fair wallop of hand shock, so making the bow actually shoot at that point was a really bad move!
Impatience is a killer - we've all been there! Try not to get excited and go shooting a bow before it's actually working the way it should be. Other than that... Keep on keeping on. Next one!
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You do sem like a nice enough gentleman but I have to say that with the attitude you approached this bow and those that offered advice yu really did deserve a broken bow. Better luck on the next ones and the same guys will be here to help you with that one.
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Come on guys, I don't think he did anything to warrant harsh treatment.
Thanks ezc. I see your points, and I was looking at that point when I cut the board away from above and below the handle.
Just remember, any time you're reducing width, you are violating wood fibers. It can't be avoided -- but the effect of it can be minimized.
The first bow I broke outright was an early attempt at a Mollegabet-type bow from a maple board. Everything was going (relatively) fine, and then it broke when I was flexing it on the ground.
To my eyes, the board looked OK (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3x3P4_LAQZpbnZSR21EWXlHMU0/edit?usp=sharing) -- straight grain and growth rings that didn't wander off the sides. But as far as I can tell, the crack started at the "shoulder" (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3x3P4_LAQZpVjRkUkVjUk5Sb0k/edit?usp=sharing) and took off from there. From the break, it's obvious that the grain wasn't as straight as I thought.
(Luckily, it seems oak boards are easier to read than maple.)
On the bow that I'm finishing up now, which I will probably make a post for in a couple days, I have a spot that worries me a little in the same place you had your crack.
A few bows later I had a break like you have here. Another maple board. Same deal: board looked good, but the break started right at the end/beginning of a width taper (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3x3P4_LAQZpZzctaGRLUGNTaWM/edit?usp=sharing).
My problem was not that bow bent too much in the handle -- in fact, it was somewhat whip-tillered (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3x3P4_LAQZpeE5DVERxaHZ3cVE/edit?usp=sharing). Instead, I believe the "cause" (or, at least a big contributing factor) of that crack was that the glued-on handle was too short -- something others in this thread have pointed too as well.
This is something I'm still kind of trying to figure out. I was really bad at gracefully reducing the thickness into the board proper for several bows. But I think I've found what works. On my last bow I had three pieces of 1/4" oak glued together, the longest one 7" long. This is for a pretty standard 4 inch handle and 2 inch fades. So 7 inches of glued-on wood for an 8 inch middle section. On the first inch or so of "board" wood the thickness continues to reduce pretty considrably.
On this bow, which I'm finishing up (and will probably post about in a couple days), I also have a "forced run out (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3x3P4_LAQZpTnBqWDhZWG41WUk/edit?usp=sharing)" that I'll keep my eye on -- but my worries are minimal. The fade is graceful (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3x3P4_LAQZpT3N6b2lVYllLME0/edit?usp=sharing) without any sharp transitions, the corners are rounded nicely, and I think the design was well picked and executed. We will see how it holds up to use -- but I'm not really worried about it.
(Rounding the corners is just a way of reducing stress. If there is a wood fiber violation at a sharp corner, the tension stresses will be very concentrated there and it will more easily tear away. But if the stress is kind of spread over a slightly larger area, the wood can handle it better.)
In the end, bow making is hard. There are so many variables. Even though board bows are "easier," they're still hard -- and they come with their own unique challenges. Don't take this break too harshly. Consider them lessons learned.
Is there a rule of thumb, or estimate of how much the thickness of the limb should decrease from handle to nock, or is every board different? For example 25% decrease or something similar, or what have you found to work in the past?
I can't answer this really -- it will vary based on your design, and of course the particular piece of wood, but what I can offer you is that a bow needs to either reduce in thickness or in width all the way down a bows limb. That's my "rule of thumb." There are exceptions of course. But if it's the same width and same thickness most of the way down, it's going to bend far too much in the middle.
First bow so I wasn't really sure what to look for other than a smooth bend with no flat spots or hinges. It is also difficult to pull it down and then step back to look at it without seeing it actually bend. I guess next time I'll get someone to pull it down so I can watch.
This was an issue for me for the first few bows. I didn't understand what a proper tiller shape was -- just knew that it should bend "even." I don't have a link on hand to show different tiller shapes, but someone might. I was going to post two examples of my own but got self-conscious all of a sudden. :X
Look at all of the bows people post here. Analyze them on your own. Read what more experience bowyers have to say. Eventually it will make sense.
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first off I don't think the handle is to short, I think the fades might be to short, and don't take darksoul the wrong way, he's giving good advice, he's just not very diplomatic about it and gets right to the hart of the matter, rounding the edges helps with slivers lifting, take the advice offered, get another board and get back to work, pay attention to the grain on all 4 sides ;)
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Irrelevant drivel was here ::) :laugh:
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crogacht this is a stiff handled bow
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" It is also difficult to pull it down and then step back to look at it without seeing it actually bend."
New guy here and still pretty new to bow making (2 years, 12 bows), but I can help with that problem. Bolt a pulley towards the base of your tillering tree and run some strong rope thru it with a clip on it to attach to your tillering string. You'll have to take your nails out and drill holes instead at your inch marks. I use a bolt as a peg. Give it a try; bet you'll really like checking tiller that way. Good luck on your next one.
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crogacht this is a stiff handled bow
So it is. That's a bit less confusing :)
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first off I don't think the handle is to short, I think the fades might be to short, and don't take darksoul the wrong way, he's giving good advice, he's just not very diplomatic about it and gets right to the hart of the matter, rounding the edges helps with slivers lifting, take the advice offered, get another board and get back to work, pay attention to the grain on all 4 sides ;)
I am not offended. I will take direct criticism from someone more knowledgeable and experienced. He put a lot of direct advice in his post. It was just a $14 board and a few hours shaping, so no great loss. Thanks to him, you, ezc and the others for taking the time to write your observations. I will get a new board and try again in a few weeks and post pics when I am ready to begin tillering.
I tapered the fades in the same 2 inches that I reduced the handle to the thickness of the leg. I reduced the handle too quickly (thickness), and maybe reduced the fades (width) too quickly also? Should that area of reduction be more that 2inches.. more gradual?
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So I found this pic online and it looks like the bow does not decrease in thickness until after the width is increased completely.
Does this look correct for the handle? Thanks.
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If you take a close look at the first picture of the board you will see at least 1 spot where the grain swirls up. That is an indication that the board was cut close to a knot. If the board would have been flat sawn then it wouldn't have been a problem but it is a problem with a quarter sawn board. If you used that surface as the back of your bow then it's no surprise that it failed