Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: lebhuntfish on April 13, 2014, 09:50:01 pm
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I have been working back and forth on two red oak board bows that I cut out of the same board from Lowe's. The board had perfectly straight grain all the way around. One bow was a mallagabet style with dog bone rawhide on it. The other was a flat bow design with FG cloth on it. (Sorry about the FG) both boys ended up with the bottom limb from the same end of the board. I had the flat bow tillered and had shot about 50 plus arrows out of it. The mallagabet was in the tiller process and was having some trouble with it but had it to full draw and had shot it about 10 times while working on a bad hand shock. The mallagabet was pulling 43lbs at 28" and the flat bow was 38lbs at 25" and tillered to 28" at 41lbs. I broke the flat bow drawing it, and broke the molly stringing it.
I will be honest on both bows I had trouble with them bending more closer to the handle fades when I started. I am a novice at bow building but I wondered if the board had a week spot in it because they both broke at the exact same spot. I'm posting some pics, any comments or advice would be appreciated, thanks Patrick.
(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1101_zps6tavl18e.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1101_zps6tavl18e.jpg.html)
(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1110_zpslafrb3be.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1110_zpslafrb3be.jpg.html)
(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1108_zps90xd1ipg.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1108_zps90xd1ipg.jpg.html)
(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1112_zpsoumfldx3.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1112_zpsoumfldx3.jpg.html)
(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1113_zpsvoi7ignv.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1113_zpsvoi7ignv.jpg.html)
(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1114_zpsxa040ccv.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1114_zpsxa040ccv.jpg.html)
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It's no wonder the mollie broke where it did, judging by the full draw pic on the tiller. It's doing all the bending right there. Those big long levers are putting an enormous amount of pressure right on that hinge.
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Your right adb, it's funny when you put pictures side by side what you will see that you didn't see with your eye. I will admit that my tillering needs some work, but I'm still learning. I can say that I got my first shooter, but not my first finished and shot in bow.
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Look at Bubbys build-a-longs.......... I think he uses boards that are at least 2" wide for a good pyramid design.
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Personally I'm not a fan of mollys (ducking from incoming fire). As a realtively new bowyer myself I like to use the entire limb of the bow. When you make a molly with large stiff limbs you are essentially reducing the working limb to a much shorter area. and taking on much greater risk of breaking. in your draw pics it's clear a realtively small portion of hte limbs are doing all the work. thus increased risk of breaks. I'll be unpopular and say screw mollys. new bowyers should make longbows and use the entire limb. the outter 8'' don't usually bend anyway, which is desirable. Just one bowyer's 2c. ;)
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I totally agree. Making a mollie is not a great first (or beginner) bow.
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Thanks guy's, not sure about the molly's but I will be making more long bows before I try a molly again.
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I agree on the Mollegabet aspect, but that flatbow actually looks pretty nicely tillered. It bends fairly evenly and has a lowish draw weight. I see no obvious reason why it should break. The grain looks straight to me and the FG (spits on floor) clearly didn't stop it from breaking in tension. Perhaps the corners could have been rounded some more, but I doubt that is the reason why it broke.
It could have been a flaw in the board. You never know what has happened to a tree before it ended up in Lowe's. It's always better to have all aspects of drying and processing wood in your own hands and cut your own trees. But red oak boards can still make fine bows. Perhaps this board had some dry rot, or a crack that formed when the tree was felled. You'll never know.
Go back to Lowe's and buy a new board of red oak. Make a new flat bow will similar specs as the one that broke, minus the FG.
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Sorry about the breaking, stuff happens. I agree with with DS the tiller looks pretty good on the flat bow, but in the side-by-side pix there doesn't appear to be much taper down the limb. Better luck on the next one!
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Personally I'm not a fan of mollys (ducking from incoming fire). As a realtively new bowyer myself I like to use the entire limb of the bow. When you make a molly with large stiff limbs you are essentially reducing the working limb to a much shorter area. and taking on much greater risk of breaking. in your draw pics it's clear a realtively small portion of hte limbs are doing all the work. thus increased risk of breaks. I'll be unpopular and say screw mollys. new bowyers should make longbows and use the entire limb. the outter 8'' don't usually bend anyway, which is desirable. Just one bowyer's 2c. ;)
I'm with you, I've only been building bows for about 55 years, and I can't see any great reason to build a Molly, ok I'll do one sometime just to show I can, but the concept seems slightly flawed to me. Certainly not a bow for a newbie to try IMO.
If I had one, I'd be thinking "Lets lighten those levers until they just start bending a tad and contributing to the draw"
For a newbie, I think learning to get the whole limb working and sharing the load is the start point.
No incoming fire from me.
Del
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Welcome to the real world of bow making... :)
And I'll just "try" n shake my head in silence at those who don't like mollys even tho they've never made one...kinda like saying one doesn't like ice cream but never tried it :laugh: :laugh: ....sure its not wise for a newby to try,but the design is def not flawed,and if done right has just as much surface area working as a normal bow whose limbs utilize the whole length...ya just make the working limbs wider is all to compensate....and I could go on n on about the pros and many benefits of these designs that far outweigh any cons(which the only one is that newbys not try em) but I won't :-X
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Ooooh ooooh... don't you shake your head at me in that tone of voice :o ;)
I didn't say I don't Like 'em... just didn't wanna make one ... yet.
Del
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Well maybe its time to try some of that ice cream then ... ;) .. :laugh:
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You tillered that bow well looks like it was just over strained wood.dont give up get yourself a good stave and go at it again.dont make them bend so much in the inner part of the limb.its not good practice to leave your bows stretched out on the tree either wood bow drawn is three quarters broke.
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I'd go with a bend in the handle bow...1 3/8 in along the board out to mid limb narrowing to 1/2 in nocks...3/4 thick...no glued on pieces...let the handle bend.
The potential for 45# is there provided the crafting is good. Simple design for the beginner.
Directions are on my site. They show 1.5 wide which could be good for 50-55#.
I do see some run out in that break. Also, that type of break on a board is pretty indicative of grain run out. May suggest some pictures of your next board so we can look at the grain with you?
I never built a mollie but if were to try the design I'd need a board with perfectly straight grain.
Jawge
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Limb width looks to narrow, looking at the pictures you've shown here. Also, to much straight, not enough bendy ;^)
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It might be any of the things listed above, and it might be that the board sucked. Even though the board has straight lines there could be hidden flaws in the wood. There is a lot of potential for lumber to get damaged between when its cut to when its being stocked on the shelves.
I have had some wood with hidden flaws and there was no way to tell until it broke. Thankfully, it seems to be relatively rare in bows made from either boards and staves.
Patrick
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You guys all make very valid points. I will try again. That flat bow was an 1/1/2" wide with the fades 15" from the end to 1/2" tips. Both bows were followed from a build along on you tube. Boarrior bows. Anyways I think it had something to do with my tillering. Thinking about it I was kinda rough with them. I would read post on here about tiller, sometimes even responses to my post. Then say to myself, well don't do that again, that guy said that what I was doing is bad for your bow. So I have learned a lot from you all. And hopefully some day I can contribute to PA instead of just ask questions. Thank you all for all of your support. I'm sure I will be posting some more questions on here. I have an Osage stave with sinew on it right now to start working on again in a couple week's. Thanks all, Patrick.
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Questions are some of the best contributions here ;D
I agree that a molle isn't a great beginner bow. I've seen people do it for their first, and I have only ever broken a molle because of a bad saw-- but those people don't seem to make the molle completely mollegabet-like with thick levers and three inch wide working limbs, and I didn't try until my tenth bow and got lucky enough with my first to get it down pretty well.
Molles are my favorite bow to make. I can rough and tiller them much faster than I do other bows because I'm comfortable working the shorter working limb and refining the levers with my machete, where with flatbows I tend to switch to my rasp with a whole eighth inch to remove before I hit my target weight and the outer limbs are too stiff :P
I don't know for sure if cited mass efficiency actually translates to better performance, but it makes sense. those levers, when worked properly, are lighter than working limb would have been, so they should offer less resistance when the inner limb does the work of a full limb, and that aught to translate to higher arrow speed-- I think ::)
I do know for sure a good flatbow or pyramid is great better for learning to tiller, and tiller is way more important than crunching mass efficiency. Drink some milk and grow a bit before taking the ice cream ;)
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Thanks huisme, I appreciate your outlook on this. And from what I've seen from this forum is that we all work together and obtain a common goal. Patrick
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Only built one "Molly" and I really like the design, Like what Del said about having the levers moving at full draw. I know my tips can be much thinner and the next time I'll have them thinner and moving just a bit.
DBar
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I to like the idea of the tips bending a bit. I think that would make it late a little more cast. Not sure though. It's something I would like to try one day. Patrick
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Ive had several oaks break and one wasnt a board. i suggest hickory or ash,and im guessing they are in the same hardwood price as oak. Keep at it!
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Tips light enough to bend a little (really little, they have almost no surface area to spread compression over) are ideal, but they should be reduced that far a little at a time after the working limb has been tillered.
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hopefully some day I can contribute to PA instead of just ask questions
You are contributing my friend! There are more beginners on here than anyone wiht the same questions as you. Your post(s) will help many new bowyers! ;D
Chris, I thought you might chime in on that comment. haha :P ;) For the record I have tasted that flavor of ice cream before. It just was not quite as good as yours. ;) Boariorbows, Mike, is awesome but I just disagree with him on recommending mollys for beginners. But what can I say I'm still on my recurve fettish? :P :)
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Thanks PA, I appreciate it. As far as making a molly the way mike said it is pretty simple I really didn't have that much time in it. So that part was simple. But anyways I found the flat bow to be really simple. Patrick
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In one sense I'm sorry for your loss and on the other hand congratulations on your new learning experience. Thats the dicotomy of making self bows. Every failure is a win if you learn something from it. personally I would rather work with hickory, white oak or maple if it were gonna be board bows. Danny
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Del - it all about string angle and stored energy.
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Del - it all about string angle and stored energy.
I can see I've just gotta build one...
Can you give me a note to give to Mrs Cat? O:)
Something along the lines of.
"Del is excused from decorating and gardening, 'cos he's got to make a Molly for his homework".
That should do it ;D
Del