Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Sidmand on April 06, 2014, 11:32:41 pm
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I just bought an osage board - 5/8"x1-1/2"X68"-72"; there just isn't any good good places to get good lumber around me that I don't have to cut myself or drive 2+ hours one way to get. Unfortunately I don't have the time or resources to cut staves this year, at least not until later on in the summer. That won't give me much time to dry the wood, so I had to get something relatively inexpensive that I think might work.
Anyway, I don't have the board yet, but I'm trying to figure out the best dimensions to get in the 55#@26" range. Would like to use this bow as my primary hunting bow this season. I have rawhide that I intend to back it with, and I have an osage handle blank as well. I am open to ANY options at this point, and being that I have only made about 4 bows now, I am looking for as much help as I can get. When I get the board, I will post every step here as I go along, and we can make this a community build along. I will tally up the suggestions and then do my best to follow them.
So, first things first, should I do:
- A rawhide backed flatbow, with a smallish handle, like a Hill style, in the 63" to 65" range?
- A rawhide backed bendy handle, shorter bow around 60" in length? Maybe longer?
- A rawhide backed mollegebet?
- A rawhide backed pyramid style bow?
- ANY one of the above, with flipped/recurved tips?
I prefer #1 with recurved tips, but as I said, my main goal is to have a good shooter in the 55# range, and I will be super happy as long as we can accomplish that.
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You will have to get the board and see what it wants to be. How is the grain, how many and how severe are any runoffs, any knots or swirls?
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Basically if the grain is real good you could potentially make any of those, but imo if the grain is anything less than perfect your gonna need a hard backing.
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That's a good idea. Maybe when you get the board. You could post a pic of it. If it's what you say it is I would say a American flat bow design would be good with about 2 inches of reflex on the last 15 inches or so of the tips. That's my 2 cents. I'm a beginner as well. Patrick
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I will post pics as soon as I get the board. Don't like ordering off line, but that was my best option this time.
Assuming that the board is strait grained, is there any benefit of one style vs the other is regards to performance, or maybe there is a benefit regarding the level of difficulty to create? The 2 best shooters I have made have been pyramid style bows, but I over tillered them for sure. I have a bow scale now so I can better tell how I'm going, I will try to take pics of my tillering setup later today, weather and time permitting.
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properly designed and tillered all of those designs will perform very similar, the molly may be just a few fps faster, i would make a shorter bendy handle purely because that's what i like to build and shoot.
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Any could work if the grain is good but I'll vote for # 1 and make it your DLx2+10 (or slightly shorter if you keep the non bending handle section smaller). So for 28 DL make a 28+28+10=66'' bow. And ya throw some reflex in there for a huting bow. You'll loose some during tillering so maybe add 3 or 4 inches if you want the end result to be plus 1 or 2 reflex after it sets. Good luck with it!
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I'm not a big rawhide fan. It helps protect a questionable back but does nothing to add to the bow performance. It's just added weight. I would go with sinew, hickory or bamboo. Bob's two cents.
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Well, I got the board, and it answered some of my questions for me. It was slightly warped, and it's got a worm hole on one side to contend with, and one end had a gnarly knot in it. So the only bow I can feasibly get out of it is a pyramid style. I laid it out using a 5 inch handle, with 1.5 inch fades, 1.75 inches at the widest point tapering down to 1/2 inch tips. Bow will be 66" tip to tip, with 29" of working limb. Still (hoping) to get in the 55 to 60# range weight wise.
The last couple of pics show the grain, at least as best as I can depict it with green crayon. The second picture looks OK I guess, the grain seems to run pretty strait through. But the last picture concerns me, because the last 2/3rds of that limb has all kinds of run out. I've never worked with Osage, so I honestly don't know how tolerant it is if that. But, it does worry me. I have some nice thin rawhide that I wanted to back the bow with; I wanted to avoid adding a wood backing because I simply wanted to have a single wood type in this bow if at all possible. But, if more of you think I should use a hickory backing I will go with it. I can't get my hands on maple, and I have never worked with bamboo so it scares me too.
So, couple of more questions:
- Will rawhide be enough to keep this guy together, or do I get some hickory to back it?
- I have an osage handle blank, should I use it or let it bend a little bit through the handle? I do have some cork, I can build the handle out that way maybe.
- Should I flip the tips some? Was thinking about a static overlays per 4est Trakker's walkthrough, with more Osage.
Eagerly awaiting responses and help.
(http://i60.tinypic.com/xle4ax.jpg)
(http://i58.tinypic.com/23gzcrl.jpg)
(http://i61.tinypic.com/2q1ii39.jpg)
(http://i62.tinypic.com/16m8137.jpg)
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ttt - I need some help. More I look at this wood the more I think I should contact 3Rivers and see if they can send me a better piece. The worm hole on the side of the limb might be deep enough to get into the limb after all, and I don't want to start cutting on the board if I have to send it back or something. Any thoughts, suggestions? Also had another question - would sinew protect the bow as well as make it stronger? I know it will add a few pounds if done right, but I don't know if it can help much with splinters and such.
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Three Rivers Archery website: "Osage lumber for building laminated wood bows. This lumber does not follow growth rings and a backing strip of some sort is required."
It is exactly what they send to you. The board looks very good to me, for an osage board. There are some grain run offs, but nothing terrible. I've never worked with osage or rawhide, but I don't think rawhide will be strong enough for this wood. You'll need a hard backing. Hickory would be preferable, based on your story. Cut the board to the correct width (plus 1/8" for safety) and glue on the hickory backing, while applying recurves or some reflex. Should make a killer bow!
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Absolutely nothing wrong with that board. As far as osage goes, it doesn't get much better. Yes, I would definitely back it with wood. Maple, ash, hickory, bamboo... take your pick... they're all good, and I've used them all.
I wouldn't cut the osage board first. Get your hands on a nice straight grained piece of backing wood the same width as the osage, and glue them together first. Then cut your profiles.
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I will post some pictures later of the offending worm hole. I'm thinking that I can take some wire or a pipe cleaner and stick it in the hole to see how far into the board it goes. If it looks like it will impact the limb, I will get 3Rivers to send a replacement. They said they could have another out to me pretty quick if it looks to be an issue, so great customer service on their part assuming that it is a problem.
Either way, I will try to get some hickory for backing that guy as well, outside of 3Rivers or Kustom King, are there any other good vendors out there, maybe someone here, that I can get some backing from? Also, to avoid the oversize shipping, I can get the backing strip cut in half, but would I need to z-splice it back together after that? Is it worth the trouble to save a few dollars?
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Echo archery has pretapered bamboo. It's bomb bro
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Pictures of the offending worm holes. the one "ditch" isn't a problem, it would get trimmed off. the other runs pretty deep into the board and would be into the working limb of the bow. There isn't enough wood to really work around it; the "well" is going to get into the limb. Waiting to see what the vendor has to say at this point, I think they are going to send another board, we shall see. If they do, then I am going to use the other end of the board, and maybe this end as well, to make a couple of lightweight kids bows for my son and one of my other daughters. So, assuming that I get another board, what are good dimensions for a kids bow, in the 20# range, with draw length in the 15 to 20 inch length? I was thinking about 45 to 48 inches, and a simple flat bend through the handle bow, about an inch wide in the handle and tapering to 1/2 at the tips. Thoughts?
Position on the board
(http://i62.tinypic.com/t9i8fk.jpg)
The two holes, one a ditch and one a well :-[
(http://i59.tinypic.com/117r6vk.jpg)
Wire, showing depth and relative position
(http://i60.tinypic.com/16bwxhk.jpg)
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Whoa! That's a big ass hole. That doesn't look good. I thought it might just be a tiny hole. 3Rivers should notice a defect like that and save themselves the grief of replacing it.
A wood backing strip (or bamboo) should be a single continuous piece IMO. The ability for all the fibers of the wood to stretch together under tension is what keeps the back from failing. A splice creates a weak spot, even in a stiff non-bending handle. You gotta learn to cut your own backings if you're serious about laminated bows. They're just too bloody expensive to have shipped.
I suppose it might work if you spliced it at the handle of a non-bendy and then put a thin overlay on top of the splice.
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Got another board coming to me, should get here today. Also ordered a hickory backing strip, should get it before the weekend. I will take pictures of both when I get them, and we can start this whole shindig again :).
Couple of questions:
- I took the other board and cut it down and worked around the bug hole, and I got 2 52" by 1" pieces out of it. I will take some pictures later of the leftovers. I am going to make my son and (one) of my daughters some bows out of that. Do you think that a skinny pyramid, with 1" at the handle tapering down to 1/2" at the tips, and bending through the handle, is doable?
- I want to try to put some static bend in the new bow. Should I get the osage board down to floor tiller, then do the bending, and then glue the backing on? OR, should I get the board to floor tiller, then glue the backing on, then do the bending? I was going to use TBIII glue, cause that's what I have, and I had heard that if TBIII got hot it would let go.
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Those 52" pieces will make great kids bows. Back them with rawhide and you're good to go.
I would suggest you walk before you run. Make yourself a nice pyramid flatbow with your hickory and osage. If you haven't tillered many bows, then a static recurve from boards is not the way to go IMO. TB3 will separate if you get it hot enough to bend static tips.
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Roger that, pyramid flat bow it is. I also happen to have some rawhide that I can put on those bows as well, I ordered it with the original board that had the worm hole in it.
I will post pics of the layout tonight for that as well. I was thinking 64" nock-to-nock, with 5" handle, 1 1/2" fades, and about 1 3/4" wide tapering to 1/2" tips. With the hickory backing, and patient tillering, I'm hoping for between 55# and 60# pounds at 26". The hickory is 1/8" thick, what would be ya'lls estimate on how thick the osage is going to be? Should I try to take down some belly wood to maybe 5/8 or 1/2" prior to really getting into the tillering? I'm basing that on 4est Trakker's Pyramid buildalong over on another site - I have used it successfully on 2 bows now, although my level of success hasn't been great, it's just lead to a shooting bow with some set and some limb imbalance.
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http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,35312.0.html
these demensions will work for you, but i'd go 1 3/4' wide to start instead of 2"
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Got the handle section glued on last night, and got the dimensions marked. Still waiting on the hickory backing strip, and I'm debating on whether I should go ahead and cut out the profile while I wait. The board I got yesterday was much better, with nice strait grain except right in the handle and fade area. I went with 65" long, 1 3/4" at the fade, 1" wide handle at 5" long, making the handle/riser area a total of 8" long.
(http://i61.tinypic.com/312yao6.jpg)
(http://i58.tinypic.com/de9gg.jpg)
This pic is of the kid bows I am going to make with the other board, they are 1" at the center and taper to 1/2" at the tips.
(http://i58.tinypic.com/w7z9tg.jpg)
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one thing I might suggest is make the center of the handle 1 1/4" wide, it will give a more natural/comfortable grip and if it was me i'd cut it out, stay away from the lines and rasp down to them, then when you get the backer mark it with the osage and cut it out before you glue it up, I use bike innertubes that I get for free at bike shops instead of clamps, just wrap with steady even pressure if you see the glue moveing ahead of the wrap that is tight enough
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I will call around and get some inner tubes, do you cut the tubing into strips or rubber bands or what?
I have some cork sheets I was going to thicken the handle up some with, the was going to wrap it all with some elk leather. Thats was why I left it at an inch, thinking to build it out a little afterwards. Think that plan will work, or should I fatten it out some on the layout?
Are you saying cut out the Osage, then use it as a template for the backer?
Sorry for all the questions, just want to make sure I understand. I don't want to screw this bow up, so I am taking everything you guys tell me to heart here.
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She is done! Thank you all for your help, certainly wouldn't have turned out as well as it did without your feedback. Overall it's a good shooter, but I did miss weight (was trying to get 55@26). I figured out what I did wrong though and hopefully won't make the same mistake again. However, here she is: Hickory backed Osage, 62" nock to nock, #45@26". I dyed it with RIT dye dissolved in rubbing alcohol, then rubbed it down with steel wool and put 4 coats of Tung oil on it. Made the string with 14 strands of B55, beaver fur silencers. Handle is wrapped with Elk hide. This is my first lam bow, and certainly my most successful attempt at a bow. I'm quite proud of it and will be shooting it next weekend at the Howard Hill Southeastern Classic in McCalla, AL.
(http://i57.tinypic.com/rr1qvd.jpg)
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(http://i62.tinypic.com/m8074p.jpg)
(http://i62.tinypic.com/1568km1.jpg)
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That turned out looking very good indeed. How's it looking unbraced? It sure looks good everywhere else :)
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That looks really good! I think you can probably still go lighter on the tips, but every one I finish I tell my own self that.
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nice job, on the next one try for a smoother transition at the fades
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Ya certainly deserve to be proud and self-satisfied with the final product. Best of luck at the shoot!
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I got no complaints. I'm proud of you, brother!
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That looks really nice bud! I really like the color contrast you did. I may have to try the Rit dye myself.
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nice job, on the next one try for a smoother transition at the fades
X2 aside from that minor bit an outstanding job!!! ;)
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Thank you all for your kind words and comments, and all the help! It was a lot of fun, and it shoots hard. I took it yesterday to a local proshop and shot it through a chrono, it was averaging about 125FPS with a 475gr arrow. Not as fast as I had hoped it would be, but based on how far it will stick an arrow into my targets and the ones at that shop, I have ZERO doubt that I could take any game around my neck of the woods. Also, I'm fairly certain that I know why it's not shooting as fast, which to me knowing the whys and being able to fix them later is the best part. As many of you have pointed out, the tips are thick and heavy: they are about 1/2" wide and thicker than the rest of the bow to make them non-bending. The way I put the curves in there puts 3 pieces of wood and a good bit of glue right at the tip, meaning more mass meaning sluggishness. I considered thinning them down as SLIMBOB stated, but it's shooting well for me and I don't want to screw it up now. That's my theory anyway, sound right to you guys?
Bubby and soy, about the transition at the fades, I totally agree. That area in my bows has always been the area that breaks - I broke 3 bows right there on the path to making this one. I have yet to figure out the best way to smooth out that curve and make it seamless. The bow ended up taking about 1 1/2" of set, still working on that as well.
I was also wondering about hickory. I have read on hear many times that hickory will suck up moisture and have less than desirable cast because of that. I have certainly seen that with one of my daughters bows, she has a small hickory self bow and in damp weather (which is almost every day here in central Alabama in the spring) it certainly does suffer. Will the same be true of a hickory backing strip? It's a decent amount of hickory, at least 1/8" all the way across the bow. I sealed it pretty good with the Tung oil, but will it still draw in moisture and suffer from it?
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I have lots of bows that could stand taking some weight off the tips. Some I won't mess with and some I will. If your happy with the way it shoots leave it be. No doubt that at 1/2 inch wide you can take 1/16 off each side of the tips no prob, more if the string alignment is good. It's the sort of thing that, at least for me, I keep going a little lighter on the tips with each successive bow just to see if I can squeeze a little more out of it. Surprising how narrow and thin you can go. Look at some of blackhawk's tips.