Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: ohiocountryboy on March 26, 2014, 08:40:53 pm
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In tbb 4 when he talks about heat treating he says he uses spruce gum and terpintine i cant find spruce gum what are good substitutes?
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Most conifers will have similar resin.
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No clue how to harvest or even what it looks like .
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I know spruce gum looks like pine resin and smells like it to
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It's the stuff that oozes out when you cut off a branch. The resin oozes out and looks rather similar to honey. It dries out and may crystalize and appear sugary.
Look at any conifer that has had branches pruned or broken off and you will see it.
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I used that process just last week on a persimmon bow I'm building. I used pine pitch dissolved in turpentine.
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There was never any good explanation (to my mind) WHY Marc does this while he heat treats.
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what should i use then? he said in the beginning he brushed water on it but switched to the varnish
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Plenty of people treat the belly's of their bows with fresh air as they heat treat 'em.
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There was never any good explanation (to my mind) WHY Marc does this while he heat treats.
A guess: Replenishing the wood to help avoid a brittle dry condition that heat produces. Turpentine is a distillate from pine balsam. Adding the 'spruce' resin just makes it thicker. Could also use pure balsam extract but its very expensive.
My guess is he switched from water to solvent because it penetrates quicker and has a more 'relaxing' effect on the wood fibers… again, just a guess. Anyway, turps are -HIGHLY- flammable so watch it.
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It very likely also has the effect of shoring up the cells the same way Osage or Yew Heartwood has improved compression abilities due to the resin content.
There was a product called toxwood that was wood impregnated with phenolic resin or similar that was used as a belly material in the early days of synthetics.
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Marc told me it was to replenish the oils and resins that are forced out of the wood due to deep heat treating. It probably makes the wood less brittle. It sure soaks it up.
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I havent tried rosin/turp mixes while heat-treating, but I can say that I really like shellac for this purpose. Fresh dewaxed flakes dissolved in den or pure ethanol alcohol. It penetrates the wood and plasticizes under high heat. Its affects really shine in the osage early wood or any ring-porous wood for that matter. It fills the empty spaces and makes for a more homogenous material. Sands smoother too. If the early wood rings are thick, use a substrate like pumice, wood dust from sanding or earth pigments to bind with the shellac and fill the larger pores.
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My reasoning for doing this is that I figured that the high heat was forcing out air from the wood cells and instead of letting the air get sucked back in as the wood cooled I would give it something else to get drawn in. It is surprising how deep the resin gets sucked into the wood. I have used other things besides Spruce resin. In fact I started out by using Tung oil but that was starting to get a bit expensive. Spruce/Pine resin is free, for me at least.
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I used Marc's method on a Hickory bow and I was very impressed. The bow does seem to be impervious to moisture unlike what you would expect from Hickory.
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Do you apply the resin to the area that is currently being heat treated? Or the area that has just been heat treated and is still warm? OR...The area you are about heat treat?
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After I have totally tempered the belly on one limb I go back over it and heat it well then add the pitch/turp mixture them work on the other limb. You have to be very careful because the mixture is volatile and the heating of the other limb may cause the fumes to combust.
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Whats s good ratio of pine pich or spruce gum to turpintine?
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Ive got turp and some pine pitch im wanting to heat treat a bow tonight, how much pine pitch should i put in how much turp?
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Make sure you do your homework on the volatility of these products. I wouldn't mess with it indoors or near any pilot lights.
Melt the pitch first, remove it from the heat source and add very small amounts of turpentine to thin it. Syrup consistency is good.
The heating of the wood is going to keep the mix thin as well.
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PatM method sounds good and his safety warning needs to be heeded. I never measure these things. I put hard, brittle pitch in a jar and cover it with turpentine and wait until it dissolves. I do the same with pitch and alcohol to make pitch varnish(although not a true vanish) that I seal sinew wraps and shafts on primitive arrows(although it is not truly primitive).
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What's not primitive about pitch and alcohol Pat. :-[ ;) :) Never tried the varnish thing on a heat treated bow,but I really do do the heat treating like Marc explanes
either,maybe should try and do it the right way. I just heat them till the wood changes color by hand and move on. :)
Pappy
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I used to dissolve the resin in turpentine but don't anymore. Spruce resin has a lot of bark particles in it and dissolving it is sometimes useful to be able to strain the foreign matter out. The Pine resins I have collected before are much more clean so can be used as is. I do prefer to use Spruce resin that is fresh for heat-treating as it is soft and melts easily, it already has the right amount of turpentine in it.
I apply the resin as soon as I have finished heat-treating a spot and just before I move the heat-gun down the limb. I have had some people ask me if I have ever had combustion doing it this way and I never had but it sure smokes. I don't think applying a varnish or anything else makes the wood stronger but it may help with moisture.
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Pappy I don't think primitive man used alcohol for finishes but I could be wrong. I guess it could be called modern primitive because it is homemade. :-\
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Pappy I don't think primitive man used alcohol for finishes but I could be wrong. I guess it could be called modern primitive because it is homemade. :-\
Primitive man didn't use turpentine either.
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Pappy I don't think primitive man used alcohol for finishes but I could be wrong. I guess it could be called modern primitive because it is homemade. :-\
Primitive man didn't use turpentine either.
Could have.. sort of. Marc, your Spruce Resin is a Balsam. Turpentine is a distillate of Balsam. It's distilled from Pine Balsam (resin). In other words, turps are a refined liquid form of resin. Primitive man likely did not use petroleum based liquids to distill the resin to a finer grade but they could have easily used the more 'liquid like' natural organic forms as not all pine/spruce resins are equal. In nature, some are thick and some are thinner. .Ron
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Debatable Ron.
Turpentine can actually be a distillation from several different species, the Balsam Fir being one of them. White Spruce is not on the list Wood alcohol has about as long a history of use, perhaps even longer, than turpentine.
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I ran a test run on a small 50" hickory straight stave bow i was floor tillering.
(http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/o753/miketoth1989/IMG_20140326_235520_zps8c672afb.jpg)
(http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/o753/miketoth1989/IMG_20140326_235615_zpsfffcc0db.jpg)
(http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/o753/miketoth1989/IMG_20140329_205939_zps19545083.jpg) (http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/o753/miketoth1989/IMG_20140330_214644_zps7b45af93.jpg)
(http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/o753/miketoth1989/IMG_20140331_165928_zpse3f51d2b.jpg)
(http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/o753/miketoth1989/IMG_20140330_233907_zps83a0183d.jpg)
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as soon as i pull it off the caul ill get more pics.
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(http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/o753/miketoth1989/IMG_20140331_182547_zps1c856bc0.jpg)
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I heat treated doing Marc StLouis way and I sealed with shellac the whole bow
Ash-- I had in the house (2 months) until it was dry,I did not want moisture getting back in.
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That's a lot of reflex. You have to be very careful when adding that much reflex with dry-heat the reason being that you can get tension cracks across the belly. The reflex has to be very uniform and not centered too much in any one spot. Also you cannot add more when the wood is hot or the risk of a tension failure becomes extremely high. You seem to have done a pretty good job with yours.
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thank you very much. I was worried it might be to much reflex would it be a good idea to give it a good sinew backing?
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Debatable Ron.
Turpentine can actually be a distillation from several different species, the Balsam Fir being one of them. White Spruce is not on the list Wood alcohol has about as long a history of use, perhaps even longer, than turpentine.
Marc, yes I agree, it appears as if I misspoke. Balsam is more related to Pine in particular.
I'm guessing the species you are acquiring your resin from is Picea glauca. As I understand it, Spruces are pretty much all conifers and as such related to Pine. I am now looking into a connection for Spruce to Pine as far as Pyrolysis (destructive distillation, which is the theme of our discussion).
I just checked the earliest known use of turpentine itself, 1759. Wood alcohol? Ancient Egyptians used methanol in embalming so yes, that goes pretty far back.
In any case, the point I was attempting to make is that primitives distilling -any- resin to a more refined 'turpentine like' substance is really not so far removed IMO. Apparently all that is needed is steam or heat. Perhaps it's a romantic viewpoint but I am inclined to give our distant brothers from the past the benefit of the doubt. They were quite resourceful and will we ever know, however rudimentary, the extent of their alchemy awareness? .Ron