Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Shooting and Hunting => Topic started by: PAHunter on March 14, 2014, 12:57:23 pm
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How much kenetic energy does it take to kill elk with a well placed shot? Easton's recommendations are:
25-41 Lbs KE...........Medium Game, Deer, Antelope.
42-65 Lbs KE ..........Large Game, Elk, Black Bear, Boar.
> 65 Lbs KE............Toughest Game, Grizz, Cape Buffalo.
I'm wondering if that sounds high to you. For example a 60# bow shooting a 550gr arrow would need to launch it at 186FPS to reach the minimum for elk. I would guess an average 60# bow shoots somewhat less than 186 (though I could be wrong). And I suspect that most indian bows were below that kenetic energy.
As I'm choosing a bow for elk hunting, I want to ensure that it has sufficient kenetic energy to 30 yards. What is a reasonable kenetic energy for a selfbow for elk hunting?
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I know a sharp cut on contact 2 blade head will penetrate fresh deer hide with under 2# of pressure. So a 60# bow with the right head should pass through an elk at 20-30 yards if you don't smack ribs on both sides.
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I know a sharp cut on contact 2 blade head will penetrate fresh deer hide with under 2# of pressure. So a 60# bow with the right head should pass through an elk at 20-30 yards if you don't smack ribs on both sides.
And you only need to break the rib going in!. Put all that kinetic energy into an arrow with a 1" diameter blunt and you will bruise a rib. On the other end of the hyperbole rainbow: have a two blade cut-on-contact single bevel arrowhead that matches the rotation of the fletching, taper the shaft behind the arrowhead to reduce diameter of the arrow shaft (reduces friction once into the cut), match the arrow spine to the bow so that you have flawless flight, and you have maximized the application of that kinetic energy. I would recommend you look up Dr Ashby's reports on arrow lethality for some bedtime reading.
It all comes down to poking a hole thru both lungs. There is a video going around Facebook of an 14 yr old kid sticking an elk with his compound and the animal is down in under 10 seconds. The bull was almost perfectly face on to him and the arrow struck at the base of the throat. You can see the blood pour like Kool-Aid out of a pitcher. If you think that is the money shot, go hang a 3/8 inch piece of rope from a tree...and if you can cut that rope 9 out of 10 shots AND you have xray vision where you can see the carotid artery in an elk, then go for it. Otherwise, stick to the double lung shots.
Man, I love the way you are working everything out ahead of time, rather than waiting until you arrive at camp to figure out what you are trying to accomplish!
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I know a sharp cut on contact 2 blade head will penetrate fresh deer hide with under 2# of pressure. So a 60# bow with the right head should pass through an elk at 20-30 yards if you don't smack ribs on both sides.
For sure! Unless I make some exceptional stone point bamboo arrows prior to then I will be using these babies.
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@JW: Perparation is one of the things I enjoy most. I know experience is the most important ingredient but mix perparation and experience and you have a lethal combination!
I couldn't agree more on shot placement. I been taking about 4 deer a year with modern equipment and only take broadside and quartering away shot opportunities. I've had a good shot to kill success rate.
Great points about the arrow and broadhead tuning's effect on KE! The only thing I didn't quite follow was "arrowhead that matches the rotation of the fletching". Do you mean aligning it with the cock feather or something?
I'll check out those articles for sure. Here i am trying to ensure that my bow and arrow are producing more than sufficient KE to get the job done. For example the Easton post suggests that my 50# bow shooting about 158 FPS woudl be signifigantly underpowered for elk. I don't know what my recent 60#ers shoot (definitely much faster) but I wanted something to judge them against.
thanks for the input brother!
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Kinetic energy is the wrong way to think. Works for firearms, but not bows. It's all about penetration, which comes from mass and velocity, and the right broadhead.
And for bows at short distance like ours, it's mostly mass. Stickbows don't have high velocity, so the arrows need to be on the heavy side for hunting.
Think of it this way... would you rather get hit in the head by a golf ball going 50 mph, or a ping pong ball going 75 mph?
And shot placement is a given with any type of hunting. I've seen deer run away unrecovered after being shot in the a$$ by a 338 Win Mag.
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Like JW said, you certainly are planning this all out ahead of time. Completely understandable since shots at elk are few and far between, even for those of us lucky enough to live in elk country.
With that being said, don't over think it. Elk are tough but if they're lungs/heart aren't able to pump blood they die like everything else. My previous neighbors kid killed a cow elk with a 35 pound recurve he found at a garage sale with an arrow he bought at Walmart to replace his other arrow. Yeah, he had one arrow to practice and hunt with. The arrow went in one side and out the other. He couldn't find the arrow and was bummed because he had to buy another one.
He got lucky in more ways than one, but i think it proves that an arrow shot from just about any weight bow is moving fast enough to have enough energy to kill just about anything.
Just my .02.
Patrick
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Single bevel broadheads are either right hand spin or left hand spin....just like the helical spin on your fletching. Match them and you improve penetration and bone splitting power. Mismatch and lose approx. 10% penetration power.
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Kinetic energy is the wrong way to think. Works for firearms, but not bows. It's all about penetration, which comes from mass and velocity, and the right broadhead.
I wonder what the variables are in the calculation for Kinetic Energy?? Mass and Velocity? and you should always have a sharp broadhead.
Just IMHO....
DBar
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Actually, if I remember my physics correctly..... Kinetic energy = 1/2 Mass X Velocity squared.... Therefore, It does has a lot to do with penetration. You both are thinking in the right direction. ;)
DBar
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Another consideration is the weight front of center. Get plenty of weight in front so it is pulling the arrow behind it, not most of the weight pushing from behind. If most of the weight is behind the center of length then any deflection is magnified and will stop penetration dead. The heavier front end also makes your feathers more effective as a guidance system by changing the center balance point of the arrow further forward. The single bevel broadheads seems like a good idea, but I wonder if it adds a lot more to penetration. Super sharp cut on contact seems to be important to me. I use 100 grain brass inserts and 100 grain Muzzy Phantoms cut on contact with I think 10 grain per inch arrows. They weigh in a little over 500 grains. Good penetration with those, Good Luck.
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Honestly Guys...Leave the science at home when hunting Elk. If your arrows are in tune with your bow, you have a decent broad head that is sharp, and you can put an arrow where you want it placed...That is all there is to it. Yes, bigger than a deer, deeper chest cavity, heavier bone...
Its not rocket surgery or brain science, just get the arrow where it needs to go. Make all the same preps as hunting deer, and then study the heck out of elk..They are smart beasts..I would worry more about finding one to shoot than actually shooting one..They are big, but very elusive,,,
And don't sweat the science. Let your inner cave man out and go hunting...Let the compound shooters worry about kinetic energy
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Ha.. I like that Mohawk.. "Its not rocket surgery or brain science, just get the arrow where it needs to go." ;D
I agree completely.
DBar
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one of my hunting buddies has been bow hunting elk for close to 30 years, he shoots mostly r/d fiberglass longbows, he told me not that long ago that he has lost 3 elk out of almost 40 he's killed with bows, they were shot with 65#+ bows and 600gn+ arrows he said that all 3 three were lost because of bad shot placement, i asked him what was the lightest bow he's ever shot an elk with, he said 42# with a 480gn arrows tipped with 150gn grizzlys, 20 yard shot, he got a complete pass through with the arrow hitting one rib on the near side, the elk only ran about 50 yards. i've only shot one elk with a bow and it was with a 62# fiberglass longbow with 550gn. arrows tipped with 155gn tuskers, it was a 55 yard shot and the cow just walk-trotted about 25 yards, looked over her shoulder and fell right there. it all comes down to shot placement and properly tuned arrows, without those it doesn't matter how much kinetic energy you've got
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Killir duck, I would like to hear more hunting stories of your buddies elk hunts. That's an awesome record and he must have a ton of elk knowledge. Wish I had grown up in elk country.
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Might be dating Myself here, But the first 6x6 I tagged, was shot at 15 yards with a Bear Kodiak Magnum, #45@28 with an Easton 2217. 30" with a Savora Sattelite broad head. Pass through, and the Bull piled up in 40 yards
Second one took 5 rounds through the heart at 20 yards with a .30-06....went 1/2 mile into the deepest steepest draw it could find. Took me 2 days to get it packed up the hill and 5 miles to My VW Baja...Should have seen the MP's face at the Main Gate of Ft. Lewis...That one was a huge 5x5 and the antlers were sticking out either side of the front deck...to funny
Shot placement is key, But Mr. Elk will surprise the heck out of you sometimes...Sometimes will drop in its tracks, other times he will make you work for your meal...
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I have always wondered about the animal that takes huge punishment and runs forever, versus the single shot and a quick death. I have never had a deer run with one of my .50 cal roundballs in 'em. I shoot a light load of 70 grains, so the ball isn't exactly setting any land speed records either.
On the other hand, I have a friend that is a much better shot than me, shoots a .54 and he hot loads 115 grains of powder. His loads are something like 75% more ft/lbs of energy and he has had to follow deer over a mile after he has shot them. Granted, I tend to shoot deer while their heads are down, but I have also shot them when they were looking me in the eye.
5 rounds from a dirty-ought-six and half a mile vs 40 yds from a broadhead out of a 45 lb bow? I dunno. How come some of us get lucky and drop animals clean and how come others go forever? It's more than kinetic energy, it's more than whether the animal is aware of the hunter, it's more than broadhead vs bullet.
I know I have often held my breath and given thanks for never having to bloodtrail a deer. I know the basics of how to, read some articles, but I have virtually no experience and no faith in my ability to understand where a deer instinctually chooses to go. Lucky I guess, but I'll take it!
Hope you get a large dose of my luck and all your own well earned skill on this hunt, Brother Mohawk! Like most of us in here I can't wait to see the pics and hear the story when you get back!
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Jdub I think your answer is adrenaline, when the animal is real hot and worked up they tend to run a lot farther than if they've got their head down in the grass.
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Doesn't answer for the deer I have spooked at close range, and shot when they stopped and looked back! One doe was visibly trembling with her tail straight up and every hair standing on end! She went 40 yds and stopped again to look at me. Meanwhile I looked like the Keystone Kops meets the Three Stooges meets Jeremiah Johnson as I was trying to reload my smokepole.
It took me longer to find all the accoutrements that I had dropped on the ground than it did to field dress her!
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well i don't have an answer for that one, every big game animal i've shot either dropped or or didn't go very far if they were relaxed, the couple i've shot that were real hot ran almost twice as far. what i said in that last post was purely my observations from animals i've shot .
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I have always wondered about the animal that takes huge punishment and runs forever, versus the single shot and a quick death.
Its a good question. I don't have any primitive kills yet but I shot a whitetail doe with a 2 blade Magnus Stinger that didn't go 20 yds last year. About 100 yds from there a few years before I put 4 holes each about an inch apart starting right behind the shoulder in a 7 point with a .270 from 50 yds and the deer never flinched. I thought I was missing him until I saw some fur ruffle on the 4th shot. He just kept walking like nothing happened. Before I got off the 5th shot he walked into a thicket and fell dead but he never showed any sign of being hit till he fell.
Kenetic energy is above my pay grade. I are not that smart.
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Don't forget those KE numbers are coming from a company who has a vested interest in convincing people that their current gear is inadequate and that they need to upgrade their equipment to be successful at hunting. I'd take it with a grain of salt and rely on 10,000+ years of anecdotal evidence.
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Don't forget those KE numbers are coming from a company who has a vested interest in convincing people that their current gear is inadequate and that they need to upgrade their equipment to be successful at hunting. I'd take it with a grain of salt and rely on 10,000+ years of anecdotal evidence.
BINGO! It's all about the dollar for those folks. I keep telling myself that the indians did it all by trial. K.I.S.S. is my philosophy. Keep It Simple Stupid. But, I also commend your desire to research it before the moment of truth. We all owe it to the animal. No matter the size.
Jeremy
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Mohawk13,
Tells it like it is....
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And i would rate Blackies in the Medium game category.
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Robb, I shot 2 elk in Colo. archery with a 49# recurve an she is a dog in fps. Shot placement an getting close is more important than K energy, Now for your choose of broadheads, I suppose I'm going to whiss somebody off but here goes, I personally would not use a vented head, :o :o >:( 2 blade solid is much stronger. What ever you use make sure they are hair popping sharp, Elk hair is like a dirty scrub brush an can dull blades fast, keep that in mind when ya start skinning, keep your knife out of the hair and under the hide. Their, just my .02 worth ;D. Bob
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That sounds like good advice Bob, thanks. You should come out this year and make it 3 elk! ;D ;)
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I second that Bob. One last Hurrah for Elk..and this time with a selfbow!
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It is all about being a smart Bowhunter first you must be able to hit what you are aiming at them mean shooting a bow and arrow combo that you can handle. second is shot placement you got to put it in the boiler room they don't go far when you do that. Third you can be taking TV shot you have to get in close. Fourth make sure your broadhead is scary sharp.Thats my 2 cent.