Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Pat B on February 11, 2014, 04:29:08 pm
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Since we are having these discussions I thought I'd add this to the mix.
Where should reflex be added to a bow to get the most benefit? Should it be at the handle, through the entire bow, at the tips or all of the above?
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in my experience i have got the best performance with about 2" - 2 1/2" of reflex, with the curve starting at the fades and gradually increasing in reflex towards the tips, so far my best shooter is osage, about 66" long limbs 1 5/8" wide with a slight eiffel tower taper towards the 1/4" tips it's 66#@30".
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I came to the conclusion that 1/2" of reflex from fade to mid limb then a gradual 2-4" more to the tips on a 62-68" bow is best for me. I hold the most reflex with very minimal set. And my bows feel the best to my hands. I learned the hard way that excessive early reflex isn't a good thing without help from other materials.
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For my first few bows my form was a consistant arc.. They all took excess set right out of the fades.. I think it works much better with a gradual increase of reflex toward the tips... But to be fair, I understand the tiller process better now so I dont know if I would get the same results now. And no, I aint gonna waste a good piece of osage to find out, lol ;D... Brian
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Another Great Thread...
I'll be watching...
For the record, I am using Cauls and Toasting Boards designed with Specs I got from Gary Davis's Rattle Sticks Video. Reflex begins about two or three inches out from the fades increasing to an almost Flipped Tip at the end.
Resulting in two to four inches of reflex, depending on length.
-gus
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"Where should reflex be added?"
Not in the kitchen over the wife's stove...
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"Where should reflex be added?"
Not in the kitchen over the wife's stove...
This man is a GENIUS!!!
OneBow
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I think the type of curves that Mark St Louis uses are probably about ideal, he uses the deflex to take some strain off the limbs and then reflexes the outer limbs.
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I prefer deflex coming out of the handle then reflex, like Marc.
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The most benefit of what?
Various configurations of reflex(and deflex) can benefit the bow, arrow, and archer in different proportions of various qualities... I.e. the trade-off factor.
The nicest behaving bow I've made in all regards has moderate deflex with the reflex... almost semi-recurves, pushed out toward the outer limbs... not too unlike the last one Marc posted.
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wish I knew. reading with interest.
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You know it seams that our friends in the large scale fiberglass bow production may be able to help us out with a lot of the questions like this on here I sure there has been more scientific testing on their part with less variables between bows, despite the differences in materials do you think we could drum up answers for things like this from them?
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I don't have a ton of experience with this. The best bows I have made with reflex added were reflexed on a form with a small amount at the fade and gradually increasing to tip. With that said, I have a osage that is naturally slightly reflexed right out of the fade (balanced perfect on both limbs) and it shoots extremely well. I had another one with quite a bit of natural reflex out of the fades and it was a burger to get a good tiller and did not shoot great when I was done (could be the tiller and not the reflex ???). Interesting hearing from the experts here.
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[QUOTE} "You know it seams that our friends in the large scale fiberglass bow production may be able to help us out with a lot of the questions like this on here I sure there has been more scientific testing on their part with less variables between bows, despite the differences in materials do you think we could drum up answers for things like this from them?"
I think they have actually learned a lot from us. The same geometry applies to either modern or primitive as long as it satys within the limits of the material. Primitive bows can be built very close to the very best modern bows on the market.
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Deflex/reflex gives the fastest, most comfortable shooters if you ask me. I've made 5 or 6 r/d recurved bows since I got the idea a year or so ago.
I 'ripped' this design off from the fiberglass brigade. After going to the 3d National Champs and seeing a million of these bows all with the same design I thought....'well they don't make them all like this for no reason....A lot of testing has gone into these modern recurves....' You can't make wooden outer limbs 'open up' like some of these fiberglass bows but you can get very close.
The deflex is essential if you ask me. It makes for a really sweet shooting bow compared to a plain pure reflexed bow. As Badger says the deflex also reduces limb strain down to a point where you can have the energy storage of the added reflex but without the wood getting trashed before you get past the early 20's in drawlength.
Reflex for reflex's sake is like chasing your tail! Sure you can store more energy but at the expense of fresh belly wood.
That said if I was adding just reflex to a bow it is always,always like a reverse elliptical tiller. As wood thins it can bend further or another way of looking at it is thinner wood holds reflex better.
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Whether it has a deflexed or straight handle I still prefer to add most my reflex thru mid limbs where the bow will be working the most, and continue to apex the reflex to the tips....and I pretty much detest setback in the handle bows
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You know it seams that our friends in the large scale fiberglass bow production may be able to help us out with a lot of the questions like this on here I sure there has been more scientific testing on their part with less variables between bows, despite the differences in materials do you think we could drum up answers for things like this from them?
I have not seen any research being done by these folks for many years
I doubt they kept much of what was done
The cam took the front seat and the rest went out the window the way it looks to me !
Folks like Miss Tracey at St Joe river bows or Branden at Rose Oak Creations may have some thoughts but I doubt it if they have any hard facts to help us much !
Have fun
Guy
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It doesn't realy require much research to answer this question, the deflex helps to keep string angles lower so it just makes sense to put the reflex out toward the outer limbs. The lower the string angles the more energy a bow is going to store. When you reflex a bow right out of the handle the limb has to bend into a big loop when you draw it.
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The one advantage to deflex at the handle is that you can make a bow shorter for a given draw length yet still keep wood strain fairly low. The disadvantage to short bows is that it's harder to get a decent amount of reflex (tip setback) because of the shorter limbs.
This bow for instance is 56" long and tillered to 28".
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/Marc-St-Louis/Composite%20Bows/Hickory%20backed%20Osage%20Recurve/100_0353.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/Marc-St-Louis/Composite%20Bows/Hickory%20backed%20Osage%20Recurve/100_0346.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/Marc-St-Louis/Composite%20Bows/Hickory%20backed%20Osage%20Recurve/FullDraw.jpg)
Even though it turned out well it's actually too short. Performance is very good but a longer bow would perform better, better durability as well. In this case I had to reflex the limbs from the fades right out to the recurves just to have enough tip setback for tillering, that's so I would have some reflex left when finished. This created problems while tillering the bow, a lot of reflex near the handle causes stability issues. With a longer bow I would add less reflex near the handle with the majority of the reflex from around mid limb out to near the recurves.
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Marc, love that unbraced profile. It is similar to my old Red Wing Hunters. How you do it with an all wood bow amazes me. I'm going to give it a go with 60"+ although I don't know how it would hold without backing.
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Marc how do you keep those bedroom slippers from filling with chips and dust???....;) I use Crocs so I can rinse them off in the utility sink we have!
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You reflexed out of the handle...or deflexed? Looks deflexed?
VMB
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Fortunately I don't tiller with my mocs on and I certainly don't tiller in the living room, my wife wouldn't like that too much.
The deflex is in the handle Brian.