Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: jojo on January 24, 2014, 02:13:20 am
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I ordered a custom longbow several years back from Jeremiah Retherford with Gila Longbow Co. out of New Mexico. He made me a beautiful hickory selfbow with elk antler nocks, 66" ntn and 65# @ 26". I pulled it out today and started shooting in my backyard. The bow is a dream...no sound, no shock, hard-hitting, and more accurate than I am.
Heres the problem. I looked at the belly on the lower mid limb and saw a number of fractures. They looked superficial and I thought it may be the finish cracking over time. The limb seemed to twist a little to the right, starting about where the small fractures were. It wasn't like that when it was first made. I had my wife take a picture of me at full draw and after reviewing the picture I saw a large hinge in the lower limb. The hinge is a new development and I'm afraid it may be the bow's undoing.
Unfortunately, I heard Jeremiah passed away some time ago otherwise I would have spoke with him for a remedy. I am turning to you guys for help. Can I re-tiller this bow down to say 45-50 pounds and save the bow, or do I have a gorgeous piece of wall art on my hands? I've learned a lot from making bows by studying this one. Any help would be greatly accepted. This bow really needs to be in the woods feeding my family instead of hanging on the wall.
I'll try to get some pics up so you can see the damage.
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Here is the hinge in the lower limb.
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Hard to tell because you aren't square to the camera .What is your draw length ? It looks like a lot of bend for a bow with stiff tips. The damage is likely too deep to fix at this point
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Fractures.
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Wall hanger now in my opinion since you've already drawn it multiple times with the hinge the damage is done and it probably already has a lot of set that would cause it to be very sluggish Even if you fixed the tiller
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Here are some more pics.
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It looks like there is only about 20-22" of working limb . 66- 6"or 8" stiff tips- 10" non bending handle=not enough working wood for a 26" draw. could just be the picture though. What does it look like at brace? The Fractures are called fretts on a bow. Think of a straw when you bend it, how it crumples at one point. Now imagine the wood is just a bunch of straws.
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Oh yeah , it's done! :(. Unstring it and don't string it again. It could blow at any time. It might just crumple, but if it's really dry where you are it could blow into several pieces. I'mm surprised you haven't heard any cracking noises.
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Looks like you'll be making a new one ;)
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Here is a pic from some time ago at brace height. Not sure if it had fretts at that time. The limb did take some set in the limb today. I only shot it a few time but something seemed wrong so I to those photos are full draw. After I saw what was going on I quickly un braced it. Any ideas as to what may have caused this issue?
I never used a bow stringer with it but instead used the floor to brace it by putting the handle on my knee and leaning into it. I was recommended that method by someone but it never really felt right. I may have over stressed that lower limb.
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The best fix that I know of, is to laminate on a horn belly patch. The proceed to re-tiller the bottom limb.
-Pinecone
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Look at the bright side...you have some text book pictures of crysals. The bow is dead, sorry:-(.
To be perfectly honest, it looks like its tillering/dimensioning gone wrong, but that is just my opinion.
Cheers
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Once again, what is your draw length? You look like a pretty big guy. By that I mean large , not pretty , and big............. ;D ::). I'm on pain killers........ any way....... The bow looked to be pushing the limits of design. for a 26" draw IMHO. You look like you might have a bit longer draw than that, even. If the bow was stored in a real crappy place, like a shed or something ,it might bugger it. but most likely , it's been drawn too far .
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The best fix that I know of, is to laminate on a horn belly patch. The proceed to re-tiller the bottom limb.
-Pinecone
Now Bryce, I have the utmost respect for your skills as a bowyer ......................... but you did see the picture of the edge of the bow , didn't you? It looks like those nasty buggers go half way through the limb. Kind of putting a band-aid on a dead man ,isn't it? If you think it would work ,I'll take your word for it.
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I pull 26" at full draw. Everytime I check its always 26-26.5" using several different methods. The camera adds a few lbs. I'm only 5'10 175. I live in AZ and its dry out here but I've always kept it indoors in a safe place.
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If Bryce think it can be repaired then im inclined to belive him. BUT....considdering the work involved, the materials it will take, and the fact that it wont be the same bow afterwards, I would say its not worth it....not by a long shot.
Try making a copy....shouldnt be too hard (but ad some width while your at it;-)
Cheers
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The best fix that I know of, is to laminate on a horn belly patch. The proceed to re-tiller the bottom limb.
-Pinecone
Now Bryce, I have the utmost respect for your skills as a bowyer ......................... but you did see the picture of the edge of the bow , didn't you? It looks like those nasty buggers go half way through the limb. Kind of putting a band-aid on a dead man ,isn't it? If you think it would work ,I'll take your word for it.
Thank you for the compliment :)
Yes I did see the frets and it looks really bad. It's obvious (absolutely so disrespect for the bowyer) that the bow was tillered and then not properly shot in to insure that the tiller was 'stable' and without fault.
It sounded like, from mr.joes opening post that he has some sentimental attachment to the bow. The horn patch would be his best option if he chose to try and repair the bow which would incline that some of the fretted wood be removed, and the patch laid over top. In no way would it be a guaranteed fix. But if pulled off would be nice.
If it was a bow of mine, I would un-string it and retire to bow to the wall.
-Pinecone
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Wall art my friend. That is from a board. Ill bet you could build one just like it in no time. Very simple and very symmetrical.
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Jerimiah ( rest in peace) built his bows in the dry New Mexico desert. His wood was all stablized at below 6% humidity. When shipped out to a different climate they would eventually come out of tiller and drop in weight. I am a bit surprised your hickory bows chrysaled that badly. Jeremiah and I used to battle it out on the salt flats in the broadhead self bow class. One of his bows held the 50# record that I took back last year. I kind of felt bad knowing he would not have a shot a a rematch. Very hard to beat desert dry hickory.
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How did you store the bow? Was it leaned in the corner on it's bottom tip? Or stored horizontal on a rack?
Those are classic frets or chrysalis, and I bet they're right where the hinge is. That's what happens to wood in compression which is over stressed , just before it fails. IMO, the bow is a goner and not worth fixing. Like PD said, it would be easy to build a replica.
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Perfect picture of "The fret of death" :-\ sorry.
I could print that picture out and stick it on my wood-pile to keep other bowyers away.
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The best fix that I know of, is to laminate on a horn belly patch. The proceed to re-tiller the bottom limb.
-Pinecone
Now Bryce, I have the utmost respect for your skills as a bowyer ......................... but you did see the picture of the edge of the bow , didn't you? It looks like those nasty buggers go half way through the limb. Kind of putting a band-aid on a dead man ,isn't it? If you think it would work ,I'll take your word for it.
Thank you for the compliment :)
Yes I did see the frets and it looks really bad. It's obvious (absolutely so disrespect for the bowyer) that the bow was tillered and then not properly shot in to insure that the tiller was 'stable' and without fault.
It sounded like, from mr.joes opening post that he has some sentimental attachment to the bow. The horn patch would be his best option if he chose to try and repair the bow which would incline that some of the fretted wood be removed, and the patch laid over top. In no way would it be a guaranteed fix. But if pulled off would be nice.
If it was a bow of mine, I would un-string it and retire to bow to the wall.
-Pinecone
Damn , Pinecone, I thought I might be able to compliment and then goad you into revealing some sort of magic , or the fact that you sold your soul to the devil >:D
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You could cut a couple inches off your lower limb which would stiffen it up enough to let you retiller and and possibly remove the frets, unlikely they will go away but a last ditch effort is better than nothing.
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Sorry sir, I believe she's a goner. Put it on the wall and make another. Josh
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The chrysals must go deep for the limb to hinge that badly. I'm afraid shortening the lower limb or even a belly lam will not help that bow. If the braced picture was of an earlier time then the tiller was off even then, you can see where the limb was slightly hinged
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You could cut a couple inches off your lower limb which would stiffen it up enough to let you retiller and and possibly remove the frets, unlikely they will go away but a last ditch effort is better than nothing.
??? If you dock the bottom , you will be adding additional stress to the problem area. It doesn't stiffen it up.
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Steve provides the best explanation. Super dry hickory is able to support itself when cut out with "fiberglass mentality" but then the moment the moisture content rises the subtle differences in the wood come to the fore and collapse as their relative strength drops.
This is why you'll see board bows that someone will want to build mathematically may look perfect at first brace, slightly off at half draw and then suddenly completely out of tiller at full draw.
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It will eventually fold on itself like closing a book. I think it is done.
I have glued rawhide over the chrysals but I never trusted the bow anyway.
During my early days ans a bowyer I made one for my brother, God rest him, and it eventually folded on itself.
I did make him a nice BL bow which he loved.
Jawge
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In my opinion that bow is done for. As to why it happened it very well could be because of the stringing method you described. For your next bow either use a stringer or learn the push pull method. The method you described should never be used on wood bow.
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that bow is gonzo
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Jerimiah gave me a 70# hickory bow. Once I had shot it in the weight had dropped to about 55# and the tiller was way out as well. I don't remember chrysals but I doubt the bow had been excersized much or shot in.
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lostarrow I think if you re-read Erick's post you will see that his thoub
ght was by pikeing the limb and retillering you may be able to remove the damaged wood, personally i'd retire it, bub
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Well if anything, I got some beautiful pictures of chrysals and fretts. In the future, if new bowyers are having a hard time visualizing what they look like they now have another good reference. At least the bow did not break, although I am surprised it did not. This bow will be fine on the wall. I don't think I want to alter it in case I need to study it for future design considerations. I might make a copy, altering the design slightly to see if I can improve its durability.
If I remember correctly, Jeremiah had told me this was the design he used to obtain his record shot. I believe his goal was to make the limbs as narrow as possible for this wood type to increase efficiency. He was focused on putting an arrow as far down range as he could. It may have still been a working design. Or it may have been a great design but my inadequacies as a new primitive sportsman years ago caused a failure. Maybe a bit of both.
I often did store it leaning in a corner with the lower limb supporting it. My mistake. I think he warned me of that, however, I didn't see how that would ruin it at the time.
Time to start building a new one. I need a bow that will fill my freezer. Something durable, reliable, accurate, and efficient. Right now, I need a game getter. Any thoughts on a new build that fits the bill?
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you can't go wrong with a osage flat bow, pyramid limbs, is your draw 26"?
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I can picture you putting your knee into this bow when stringing, making the weakest part of the lower limb do all the work to get to brace. Over time my bet is this was the major cause. As was mentioned earlier, learn a better way to string.
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My draw is right at 26". I would like to build an osage bow, but staves are expensive and I can't afford to turn one into firewood. I thought about using osage billets. I backpack hunt here in AZ to get away from the road hunters. I hike 6-7 miles over some very rugged terrain just to set up base camp. A takedown bow would be very nice for what I do.
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rps3,
That's exactly how I strung the bow for some time. Don't know where I heard that was a good idea, but it never felt right. My many mistakes certainly contributed to this bows demise.
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The only viable remedy I can think of is to cut off the lower limb and then either splice in a new limb at the handle or make a takedown.
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<snip>Time to start building a new one. I need a bow that will fill my freezer. Something durable, reliable, accurate, and efficient. Right now, I need a game getter. <snip>
<snip>I backpack hunt here in AZ to get away from the road hunters. I hike 6-7 miles over some very rugged terrain just to set up base camp. A takedown bow would be very nice for what I do.
Brother - If you plan to fill your freezer with what you can pack out over a 6 or 7 mile rugged terrain back pack hike, I hope you like Jack Rabbit steaks!
OneBow
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go by a GOOD hard maple board, make a cheap selfbow with that and you will get a good hard hitting and fast bow if built correctlly
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use this layout and you will get a good bow http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,35312.0.html
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ITS OVER
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if that was my bow and i was set on fixing it,i would strap it down aheat treat it to get it flat enough to resaw it on a fenced table saw at about 3/16 ths thick,clean it up till saw marks are removed and find a decent piece of hard wood for the core and rip it to 7/16ths.i would make the core about 1/8" wider all the way around to essentually trap the back and then trim the handle to fit and glue it all together.this is a lot of work and finding a straight grain piece of maple is a way better way to go imho
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lostarrow I think if you re-read Erick's post you will see that his thoub
ght was by pikeing the limb and retillering you may be able to remove the damaged wood, personally i'd retire it, bub
Yeah , I know what he was getting at , but the bow was already pushed beyond what was feasible for draw length with that design, IMHO. Thus the failure. Piking it would just be making the problem worse , even if you could tiller out the frets. You would be left with a bow that might work for a small child with a 20 " draw. The frets go half way through the limb thickness.
Just saying ,it would look better as a wall hanger than firewood.
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I think its toast to lostarrow, but at 66" length stiff handled now I don't see the problem with a 26" draw, most of mine are shorter than that for a lot longer draw
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Non working tips and stiff handle is what I was looking at bubby. I know you can make shorter with longer draws , and you've made some fabulous bows , but I'm talking about this bow ............... don't you see , we are trying to get this fellow hooked on making his own bows ;)
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I would at least cut a backing strip off it.
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Never string a bow like you described and never leave a wooden bow stood up on one of it's tips. humidity level is almost ALWAYS higher at ground level (water is heavy stuff) if a bow is left like this for a long time it will absorb more moisture in the lower limb then when you go to bend it.....the lower limb will also have a load on it the whole time it's left stood up.
Don't even think about fixing this bow. Put it on the wall and admire and remember from there!
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Non working tips and stiff handle is what I was looking at bubby. I know you can make shorter with longer draws , and you've made some fabulous bows , but I'm talking about this bow ............... don't you see , we are trying to get this fellow hooked on making his own bows ;)
So you believe that the design may not have been well suited for that draw length in the first place. How far would you tIller the tips to improve the design assuming it wasn't compromised with fretts. I would like to make a copy but I want to improve its design. as a side note that bow seems like it would stack at full draw making it somewhat unpleasant to shoot. It threw an arrow pretty good but it wasn't smooth or sweet to shoot. could that be attributed to the stiff tips? I thought stacking only had to do with string angle but it just didn't want to go that extra inch to anchor.
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use this layout and you will get a good bow http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,35312.0.html
I'll start one of these this week since I'm down a bow. Thx for the link.
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Hinge in the middle of the lower limb. Looks like an opportunity for you to make a new bow.
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Like I asked...
If you stood that bow in the corner, and braced it as described, it's mostly your fault that it's dead. I know you already mentioned this, and I'm glad you recognise your mistakes. I can't see an experienced bowyer sending out a bow like that with a horrible hinge. Push/pull stringing, and store your bows horizontally on a rack!
Also, if it's your first bow, I'd stay away from a T/D. Get a nice hard board with good grain (minimal cost) and make some sawdust.
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If you're new to the game you can't go wrong with the link Bubby gave you. Try that one first . Like I said, the bow you have was really pushing the limits of design. That's what it's all about though , and if the bowyer was into flight shooting ,that explains a lot. After you build a few ,then start to tinker with design a bit at a time. If you throw a whole bunch of new ideas on a bow at one time , and it fails ,you might not know what the true cause was , or if it was a culmination of many flaws.
The design of the bow is a good one. I build most of my bows with stiff tips and a stiff handle. You just have to be sure that there is enough working wood to handle your draw length . If stiff tips are kept to about 5-6 " with a little more bending towards the tips than what your bow was doing, you can optimise the lever action you are looking for while keeping the tips light. This reduces hand shock. It also makes more of the working limb share the load instead of putting the lions share towards the handle. If you need more draw length you can make the handle section shorter. (depending on how you hold the bow) or you could add overall length to the bow. Remember though , there is a very fine line between high performance and durability.
These are just a few suggestions for that design but "there's many paths up the mountain". good luck!
Thanks for the link ,Bubby.
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Make sure you check your true draw length before proceeding. It looks like it may be longer than you think.