Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Around the Campfire => Topic started by: toomanyknots on January 22, 2014, 11:44:30 pm
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Well my bandsaw has been acting up for a bit now. I am on my second woodslicer, (first one thought it was the blade) and I have been having a hell of a time. The blade wants to move back and forth, not when looking head on, but when looking from the side. And then when I try to feed some wood through it, the blade will come off the back roller guide, as much as a forth of inch, to where I am scared it is gonna pop off the wheels. I believe it is tensioned enough, really too much maybe, it is a 1/2" woodslicer on a 14" grizzly bandsaw. I got the wheels coplaner I believe, and the guides and all set up perfect. No idea what is going on. Googling this problem has lead me to believe two things, one my tires are bad, or two, I have a bad shaft. I guess tires ain't too big of a deal, but if I bent a shaft, is there an easy way to tell? Is it a huge fix, will I have to send in a big chuck of saw to grizzly to get a bent shaft fixed? I am hating life right now, I got all kinds of bows I need to make, and am sort of stuck until I get this piece of crap to work. The cut quality is garbage as well.
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Take your blade off and spin both wheels by hand. If you have a bent shaft you should see one wobble. I would check where the wheels fit on the shaft. I had a key that would work loose on my old saw and it acted like what you are describing. I found out the key wasn't seated in the slot far enough and the set screw was only catching the back edge of it. It might be a good idea to check every nut and bolt to make sure everything is still tight. Try calling Grizzly tomorrow. They might be able to help you find the problem.
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Take your blade off and spin both wheels by hand. If you have a bent shaft you should see one wobble. I would check where the wheels fit on the shaft. I had a key that would work loose on my old saw and it acted like what you are describing. I found out the key wasn't seated in the slot far enough and the set screw was only catching the back edge of it. It might be a good idea to check every nut and bolt to make sure everything is still tight. Try calling Grizzly tomorrow. They might be able to help you find the problem.
Thank you outlaw, I will follow your advice, as well as give grizzly a call as well.
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Please post what you find out with it. I'm thinking about getting a 14" grizzly soon.
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What does the blade do when you turn it on? Could be a kinked blade. Take a pic of the bearing set up. As well, see where your blade is running on the tire.It should be right in the center.If it's forward , it will put the blade at an angle towards the right at the back of the blade. If your bearing is set close to the edge of the blade , pushing the stock might be enough to make it jump the bearing. How do you tension your blade? The marks on the tensioner are total BS. Don't ever trust them!
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I have a Grizzly 14". Ill give a quick version of my set up. First I back the roller guides that control the front to back motion all the way off. Then center the blade on the wheels, top and bottom and get my tension correct. Once I get that humming nice I adjust my rollers forward until they clear the back of the blade by .003-.005". Then just squeeze the side thrust rollers/blocks in until they just miss the side of the blade. It sounds to me like one of you backside rollers may be pushing the blade while the other isn't touching. Just a guess
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It may be nothing more than a retainer clip that has slipped or fallen off the shaft. I had that happen on a new drive shaft I had to replace on my Craftsman saw..........Art
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Please post what you find out with it. I'm thinking about getting a 14" grizzly soon.
Will do, I'm about to call them in a minute.
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What does the blade do when you turn it on? Could be a kinked blade. Take a pic of the bearing set up. As well, see where your blade is running on the tire.It should be right in the center.If it's forward , it will put the blade at an angle towards the right at the back of the blade. If your bearing is set close to the edge of the blade , pushing the stock might be enough to make it jump the bearing. How do you tension your blade? The marks on the tensioner are total BS. Don't ever trust them!
I hope it ain't a kink in the blade, because I have been having trouble getting a good quality cut for a good while now, a month and a half or so, when I have not had this problem before. Typically, I can set the tracking on the blade, tension it, set the guides, find the drift angle and set the fence to it, and then cut smooth little sanding needed cuts all day long, as long as the blade is a good quality resaw blade like a woodslicer. I tension the blade by doing the "push 1/4" way mostly, I don't go by the tension gauge. The gauge on this 1/2" woodslicer was reading a bit above the 3/4" mark. I have had it up to about the same tension as a 3/4" carbide resaw king blade I was using recently, which didn't visibly dance back and forth like this 1/2" woodslicer blade, but I still could not get a decent quality cut, which is telling me something as I have heard this blade cuts beautiful quality cuts. With this woodslicer, it is like the blade is pulling itself off the wheels away from the back roller guides when I feed it. I have never had this happen. Both wheels appear to be co-planer, I check using a level. They didn't use to be co-planer exactly, I recently shimmed the top though to make sure they were perfect, so I could run this 3/4" wide resaw king I got.
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Use 80 grit sandpaper to "rough up" the surface of the tires. Each tire should be curved like a hill, not flat and the blade rides on the crest of the "hill" in the center of the tire. Bandsaw tires that become "slick" and glossy will cause the blade to move or pop off the wheels.
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I had the same problem a while back, I was sure I had a bent axle on one of my wheels. I backed everything off and found my top roller bearing support had become twisted somehow. I had stalled the blade a time or two trying to run logs through the saw which probably caused the problem.
I tweaked the top support back around to where it was supposed to be, just grabbed it and twisted hard. Before I couldn't get the proper roller bearing adjustment, one side would be too close with no adjustment room, everything lined up perfectly. I readjusted my roller bearings and started the saw, instead of the jerky blade travel I had before everything ran as smooth as silk.
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Please post what you find out with it. I'm thinking about getting a 14" grizzly soon.
Well I called them and talked to someone names keith, he wants me to redress the tires, and then reset the tensioner, and if that doesn't work to give him a call, and he'll send me out some new tires. He had me try to move the wheels back and forth with the wheels tensioned, to see if there was play. I'm not sure how they would move, or if I checked enough, but I guess it wasn't that.
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So the problem started after you shimmed the top wheel?................... There may have been a reason it was adjusted that way from the factory in the first place. Their job is to get the blades tracking ,regardless of what things "should look like".
Possibility. Still no pics? . Where on the wheel is it tracking? Front, back or center? If I was closer , buddy , I would pop over and give you a hand. I'm sure it's something simple!
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So the problem started after you shimmed the top wheel?................... There may have been a reason it was adjusted that way from the factory in the first place. Their job is to get the blades tracking ,regardless of what things "should look like".
Possibility. Still no pics? . Where on the wheel is it tracking? Front, back or center? If I was closer , buddy , I would pop over and give you a hand. I'm sure it's something simple!
I wish you were closer! I am trying to upload a video I took of it with the guides off spinning it to youtube right now. It is hard to see it moving back and forth though, it only does it a little bit. I don't know why it would be off co-planer on purpose, even the manual explains how to get the wheels coplaner. I did have a piece of horn recently get jammed in the bandsaw when it was running though, I had to turn it off as the blade was completely jammed.
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Before or after shimming? Was it this blade that you Jammed the piece of horn with? Have you tried a different blade? Do you like how I have 3 questions for every answer you give ?haha ;D
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Wait a minute. Where you are checking the wheels for alignment. If you are only checking down the part nearest the axels ,that is not giving you the whole picture. They axels may be perfectly aligned and the center of the wheels may be true but if the top is twisted in relation to the bottom wheel along the vertical axis ,it will pull the blade off.
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Wait a minute. Where you are checking the wheels for alignment. If you are only checking down the part nearest the axels ,that is not giving you the whole picture. They axels may be perfectly aligned and the center of the wheels may be true but if the top is twisted in relation to the bottom wheel along the vertical axis ,it will pull the blade off.
When I checked, I checked the whole thing with a level (straight edge I mean). Here is a video I took, it doesn't move back and forth as much as it has been, it is kinda hard to see, you can see it better when I turn it off and it slows down I think better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sme2WmrLhqo&feature=youtu.be
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Before or after shimming? Was it this blade that you Jammed the piece of horn with? Have you tried a different blade? Do you like how I have 3 questions for every answer you give ?haha ;D
lol It was an older woodslicer blade, this is a brand new one. I think it was before shimming it.
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Top wheel is wobbling a bit,But it looks like it's tracking fine. The rear bearing is too far back,I'm assuming it just isn't set yet. When looking at it from the front ,where does the blade run on that back bearing? And what's going on with the bottom blocks and bearing
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If it's the wobble from front to back you are wondering about, it's being caused by the wobble on the top wheel. Looks like it's warped.
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Re read your original post. That top wheel is definitely the cause of the problem. the tires are fine , it's the wheel itself. The re isn't any play ,so it isn't the bearing. It could be the shaft is bent.or it could be the wheel is warped. If you look from head on at the shaft, does it seem to wobble when running? if not It's the wheel. It's not that uncommon to have a little wobble. If you adjust the bearing to the back of the blade and don't tighten it, then spin the wheel by hand you can see how much it deviates. 1/4 " is a lot 1/16" isn't great ,but not horrible. You didn't by chance pry on the wheel when shimming did you? :-X Don't take that as an insult if you didn't . If you did ,.................. just tell me you didn't ,and chock it up to lesson learned. ;)
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Should still cut OK. Might have always been warped and you notice more with this blade. Sometimes the weld on the blade is also not perfect and can cause a bit of a "kink " that will throw the whole think out of whack ,not just at the weld. This could be adding to the problem and exagerating the wheel problem.I'm sure if we all went and checked , all of our saws will have that same bit of wobble. I'm going right now :laugh:
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I can't check mine. My band saw only has one wheel right now :'(
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Sorry, Mine only has about 1/64" of deviation, which i will chock up to the blade .
I can't check mine. My band saw only has one wheel right now :'(
Did you have a warped one?
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Nope. It was straight until it snapped in half. That was on a 12" craftsman.
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Nope. It was straight until it snapped in half. That was on a 12" craftsman.
Dang! That sucks! On mine, it doesn't look like it's wobbling when I spin it to my eye? I will have to recheck it. I can line it up ok to the back roller guide, but when I start cutting it jumps off by as much as 1/4", or maybe more. Like it's trying to jump off the wheels. I guess it's not doing it too much when it's not cutting. I got all the roller guides backed off in the video.
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If you look in the video you can see the wobble on the wheel. Don't focus on the black rubber tire , but on the aluminum wheel itself. You can see it from 42sec to 56 sec. on the vid. You won't see it when you spin by hand , it's when the saw is switched off and it starts to slow down.
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Well, your video helped. That back and forth motion you're noticing is from a less than perfect blade. I get that from time to time with new bandsaw blades also. Only problem it causes me is the thump thump thump against my thrust bearing when I'm cutting..........Art
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If you look in the video you can see the wobble on the wheel. Don't focus on the black rubber tire , but on the aluminum wheel itself. You can see it from 42sec to 56 sec. on the vid. You won't see it when you spin by hand , it's when the saw is switched off and it starts to slow down.
Okee Dokey, will check it out...
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If you look in the video you can see the wobble on the wheel. Don't focus on the black rubber tire , but on the aluminum wheel itself. You can see it from 42sec to 56 sec. on the vid. You won't see it when you spin by hand , it's when the saw is switched off and it starts to slow down.
Ok, I see what your saying I think.
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Well I took another video focusing on the wheel spinning, showing the wobble you spotted lostarrow. Didn't catch it myself. What exactly am I gonna need to do to fix this? Would I need to order a new shaft from grizzly?
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Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner , I was in the shop.
I took a closer look at my saw(basically all the same) . The top wheel is riding bearing on a stationary shaft. If the shaft were bent ,it would cause missalignment not wobble. If the bearing was shot it would cause vibration , not wobble. I'm sure that the top wheel is warped.
On the bright side , it should be quick easy fix once you get the part. I would get a new bearing while you are replacing the wheel, if it's seen much use. This way you won't get it back together only to find out that the bearing is shot as well,or will be a month later.The bearing should only be about $20-25 . I have no Idea what the wheel would cost. When you order the wheel , make sure it comes with the rubber tire on it. It should, but would suck to wait for a package that didn't have all the parts.
Without being there in person ,I could be missing something, but from the video , it seems fairly clear. Never hurts to get a second opinion before you order any parts.
You still don't seem too sure of what you are supposed to be looking at in the vid. I was watching the aluminum top wheel (barely visible behind the blade ) in relation to the back bearing (that gives you a fixed referance to observe deviation)
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Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner , I was in the shop.
I took a closer look at my saw(basically all the same) . The top wheel is riding bearing on a stationary shaft. If the shaft were bent ,it would cause missalignment not wobble. If the bearing was shot it would cause vibration , not wobble. I'm sure that the top wheel is warped.
On the bright side , it should be quick easy fix once you get the part. I would get a new bearing while you are replacing the wheel, if it's seen much use. This way you won't get it back together only to find out that the bearing is shot as well,or will be a month later.The bearing should only be about $20-25 . I have no Idea what the wheel would cost. When you order the wheel , make sure it comes with the rubber tire on it. It should, but would suck to wait for a package that didn't have all the parts.
Without being there in person ,I could be missing something, but from the video , it seems fairly clear. Never hurts to get a second opinion before you order any parts.
You still don't seem too sure of what you are supposed to be looking at in the vid. I was watching the aluminum top wheel (barely visible behind the blade ) in relation to the back bearing (that gives you a fixed referance to observe deviation)
Here's a video I took of just the wheel spinning: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKuwK0NeclU&feature=youtu.be
I just talked to grizzly. The guy I talked to didn't wanna hear nothin about a wobbling wheel. He is sending me out two new tires though. I told him I can see the wheel wobbling, and asked him a couple times what a wobbling wheel would do to tracking, etc, and he said basically he doesn't know, or really didn't wanna answer? Maybe he was about to get off work, and just wanted to go home. My bandsaw is still under warranty. I think the wheels are like 60 bucks each.
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From what I understand , replacing the rubber tires is a pain in the but. They are usually glued on. I seem to remember a three page article in "Fine Woodworking " on how to do just that. ??? It looks pretty obvious to me that the wheel itself is the culprit. I'm not sure what he thinks changing the tires will accomplish. I wouldn't waste my time.I'd try to speak to a different rep. See if they will reference the videos you took . That should clear up any questions. Good luck.
If they give you a hard time , tell them that thousands of people are waiting to see the results of "Grizzly customer service" for waranty work before deciding to buy a bansaw of their own. I know not everyone is looking at this post, but we do have alot of people on this site . Nearly all are woodworkers ;)....... who buy tools.
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From what I understand , replacing the rubber tires is a pain in the but. They are usually glued on. I seem to remember a three page article in "Fine Woodworking " on how to do just that. ??? It looks pretty obvious to me that the wheel itself is the culprit. I'm not sure what he thinks changing the tires will accomplish. I wouldn't waste my time.I'd try to speak to a different rep. See if they will reference the videos you took . That should clear up any questions. Good luck.
If they give you a hard time , tell them that thousands of people are waiting to see the results of "Grizzly customer service" for waranty work before deciding to buy a bansaw of their own. I know not everyone is looking at this post, but we do have alot of people on this site . Nearly all are woodworkers ;)....... who buy tools.
So you think that bit of wobble in the video could be doing it? I really need to get this darn thing working. It's making me freaking sick. Could it be the bearings in the wheel? It seems to have a bit of play when I try it, side to side and up and down a bit, but I got the nut off and I don't know if me shimming it with some washers.... heck, lets be honest, I don't know nothing, ;D. The wheels are the big iron kind, could they have warped?
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Usually if the bearing is bad you get vibration and noise , not a wobble. The wheel will shudder because it isn't being held firmly in line. Did you take the wheel off before, when you were shimming? Is it possible you moved the bearing out of whack in the wheel? What was your process for shimming and where did you place it?
I'll ask again because you didn't respond to it last time
" You didn't by chance pry on the wheel when shimming did you? :-X Don't take that as an insult if you didn't . If you did ,.................. just tell me you didn't ,and chock it up to lesson learned. ;)"
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Usually if the bearing is bad you get vibration and noise , not a wobble. The wheel will shudder because it isn't being held firmly in line. Did you take the wheel off before, when you were shimming? Is it possible you moved the bearing out of whack in the wheel? What was your process for shimming and where did you place it?
I'll ask again because you didn't respond to it last time
" You didn't by chance pry on the wheel when shimming did you? :-X Don't take that as an insult if you didn't . If you did ,.................. just tell me you didn't ,and chock it up to lesson learned. ;)"
I didn't pry on it, I don't really know what you mean. I placed a couple washers behind the wheel until it was co-planer with the bottom wheel, and put the nut back on. I started having this problem before I shimmed it. I just tried for the millionth time to get this woodslicer blade setup and cutting good. I can't for the life of me get this thing to work. I try to find the drift angle over and over again, and the cut quality is always garbage. I am losing my mind. :-\
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Ok , now I know what you mean about the shimming , I think. Did you pull the wheel off to put the washers on? If so, did it come off easy, and go back on easy? Or was some force involved that could have bent the wheel? That's all I was getting at.
Do the washers fit well, or are they somehow making things askew?
Did you have to shim it out so far that it isn't sitting well on the shaft?
The bearing is press fit into the wheel, correct? I'm wondering if it got nocked out of line either in shimming process or when you jammed the horn in it?
Any way you slice it , that top wheel needs to be addressed before you can move forward .(as long as you're sure it's not the blade.) But you have tried other blades and we determined that wasn't it, right. I'm a little foggy from the meds.
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Ok , now I know what you mean about the shimming , I think. Did you pull the wheel off to put the washers on? If so, did it come off easy, and go back on easy? Or was some force involved that could have bent the wheel? That's all I was getting at.
Do the washers fit well, or are they somehow making things askew?
Did you have to shim it out so far that it isn't sitting well on the shaft?
The bearing is press fit into the wheel, correct? I'm wondering if it got nocked out of line either in shimming process or when you jammed the horn in it?
Any way you slice it , that top wheel needs to be addressed before you can move forward .(as long as you're sure it's not the blade.) But you have tried other blades and we determined that wasn't it, right. I'm a little foggy from the meds.
Yes, I have tried four different blades now, no dice. It is beyond my human ability anymore to get a usable cut quality with this bandsaw. The wheel comes off and gos back on easily. I am not sure if there is any play in the bearings when the wheel is on, there might be a little. The bearings do turn fine and aren't jammed or anything. I'm pretty sure it is sitting fine on the shaft. (I'm sure I can think of a joke to go with all of this "shaft" talk, but I will leave it alone, :) ). I'm not positive I know what you mean by "bearing is press fit into the wheel", but I believe so, if what you mean is the bearings are pretty much part of the wheel, and or jammed into the wheel I guess. I just slapped back on my 3/4 resaw king. Pray for me please, I got so much crap I need to do! I'm about to call woodcraft and rockler tomorrow and see if they can slice some laminations for me, I wonder if they will. So, in your opinion so far, should I ask grizzly to send me a new upper wheel on my warranty? I'm thinking they are not gonna want to do that.
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That wheel is definitely warped .I don't see any other way to fix it but replace. I think we've run the gammit for possibilities . Either the bearing is in the wheel crooked , or the wheel is warped. Change it. How much is your time worth? You've spent a day now at least , to no avail. Even if they don't want to do it under warranty , I'd spend the $60 to be on my way.
What made you decide to shim the wheel? I'm assuming you've had this saw for a while and used it with no issue.Last ditch effort , you could try to take the washers out .
The only other thing I can think of is that if the washers were the wrong size and caused the wheel to sit crooked on the shaft, you may have shifted the press fit bearing in the wheel when you tightened it down. Long shot . Don't even know if it's possible without seeing how it went together. Good luck ,my friend, I'm out of ideas.
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That wheel is definitely warped .I don't see any other way to fix it but replace. I think we've run the gammit for possibilities . Either the bearing is in the wheel crooked , or the wheel is warped. Change it. How much is your time worth? You've spent a day now at least , to no avail. Even if they don't want to do it under warranty , I'd spend the $60 to be on my way.
What made you decide to shim the wheel? I'm assuming you've had this saw for a while and used it with no issue.Last ditch effort , you could try to take the washers out .
The only other thing I can think of is that if the washers were the wrong size and caused the wheel to sit crooked on the shaft, you may have shifted the press fit bearing in the wheel when you tightened it down. Long shot . Don't even know if it's possible without seeing how it went together. Good luck ,my friend, I'm out of ideas.
Thank you by the way! I shimmed it because it has never been truly co-planer, and I wanted to get it perfect before I put the big 3/4" blade on it. I usually use a 1/2" blade. I bought the new 3/4" though in the first place because it was having problems, and I could not get the cut quality that I used too. It jammed while it was running though with that horn before it started having problems, so I am thinking that might of did something.
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Could be. I don't think you'll be that happy with a 3/4" blade though. You might have a bugger of a time tensioning it . If your saw is tuned up right, a 1/2" with 3TPI hooked teeth or skip tooth blade will give you the best cuts on this saw IMHO. The 3/4" blade will just make more work for the motor.
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Could be. I don't think you'll be that happy with a 3/4" blade though. You might have a bugger of a time tensioning it . If your saw is tuned up right, a 1/2" with 3TPI hooked teeth or skip tooth blade will give you the best cuts on this saw IMHO. The 3/4" blade will just make more work for the motor.
I completely agree with this statement.
Large blades need an exponentially greater tension on them. Most saws that say they can handle a 1/2 inch blade struggle to get them properly tensioned. At least in my experience. I had similar problems to you Toomany until I spent all my money on an industrial saw....never had an issue since.
I have never seen /used one of these grizzly saws so can't really comment but I would remove your shims, use a 3/8ths or so blade and try to 'restore factory settings'!
Also did this problem come on gradually or suddenly?
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Could be. I don't think you'll be that happy with a 3/4" blade though. You might have a bugger of a time tensioning it . If your saw is tuned up right, a 1/2" with 3TPI hooked teeth or skip tooth blade will give you the best cuts on this saw IMHO. The 3/4" blade will just make more work for the motor.
I completely agree with this statement.
Large blades need an exponentially greater tension on them. Most saws that say they can handle a 1/2 inch blade struggle to get them properly tensioned. At least in my experience. I had similar problems to you Toomany until I spent all my money on an industrial saw....never had an issue since.
I have never seen /used one of these grizzly saws so can't really comment but I would remove your shims, use a 3/8ths or so blade and try to 'restore factory settings'!
Also did this problem come on gradually or suddenly?
I'll give it a try, but this is actually the second time I shimmed it. The first time it was just close, not perfect. I've never used it without having it shimmed, from the factory the wheels were way off co-planer, the top wheel being a good deal farther back then the bottom wheel. As much as this points to the blade, I started noticing this after replacing my old 1/2 woodslicer blade with a new one. Since then, I have replaced the new woodslicer, bought the 3/4 resaw blade, and still had the same results. I think when I got the cash i'll pick up an olson blade from menards or woodcraft and see how it fairs. After messing with the drift angle of my fence, I was able to get a semi-decent cut from my resaw king, but it still is wandering a bit. Which I guess makes me think it still might not be tensioned enough. I turn the knob though with a c-clamp clamped to it, or else I could not turn it by hand. My spring is pretty compressed. And don't you know it, grizzly has the spring marked on their site as unavailable anymore...
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You'll likely cause damage by trying to tension that 3/4" blade. These saws aren't made to handle them . sounds like the top and bottom castings weren't aligned when bolted together if the wheels were that far off.