Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: toomanyknots on January 11, 2014, 01:04:43 pm
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Can't provide the link via the rules, but here is the quote:
If you tried to find horn tips for your English Longbow you would most likely find Water Buffalo horn tips. Not at all authentic. The single surviving horn tip from the Mary Rose appears to be deer or stag horn. If you wanted to have authentic horn tips for your Longbow you would use deer elk or cow horn. Here they are and pre drilled. Set of 2 pre drilled longbow tips.
Just curious, as I really don't know either way, but I thought they were supposed to of been all horn, presumably cow horn?
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Might wanna take this too the warbow section those guys are really into these specific bows.
Interesting topic though.
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I read somewhere (no idea where) that while horn was fine for low poundage bows, antler was far more preferable for the warbows. It's either Ascham or somebody who's not Ascham who wrote it. Helpful? I thought so. ::)
They probably used whatever they could, right?
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I just reverse-Googled your quote. The guy who wrote it? Dave Robertson of Medicine Bow Woods. Enough said!
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I just reverse-Googled your quote. The guy who wrote it? Dave Robertson of Medicine Bow Woods. Enough said!
Ha!
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It's either Ascham or somebody who's not Ascham who wrote it.
It's great how we can always count on you for help!
Now, excuse me while I go get something to wipe the coffee off my computer screen. And remind me to not be drinking coffee when I read your future posts, Will. You really caught me off guard with that one!
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It's either Ascham or somebody who's not Ascham who wrote it.
It's great how we can always count on you for help!
Now, excuse me while I go get something to wipe the coffee off my computer screen. And remind me to not be drinking coffee when I read your future posts, Will. You really caught me off guard with that one!
Any time!
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I just reverse-Googled your quote. The guy who wrote it? Dave Robertson of Medicine Bow Woods. Enough said!
Yup... nuff said. The man's eyes should be brown.
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Ohhh, didn't know that was the same guy!
I read somewhere (no idea where) that while horn was fine for low poundage bows, antler was far more preferable for the warbows. It's either Ascham or somebody who's not Ascham who wrote it. Helpful? I thought so. ::)
They probably used whatever they could, right?
That's interesting. It is nice harder then horn I think.
It's either Ascham or somebody who's not Ascham who wrote it.
It's great how we can always count on you for help!
Now, excuse me while I go get something to wipe the coffee off my computer screen. And remind me to not be drinking coffee when I read your future posts, Will. You really caught me off guard with that one!
LOL
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What would be more readily available for outfitting a bow with nocks? A Cow provides one set per lifetime, a Red Deer stag would provide enough for perhaps five bows every year it was alive.
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What would be more readily available for outfitting a bow with nocks? A Cow provides one set per lifetime, a Red Deer stag would provide enough for perhaps five bows every year it was alive.
True. I would think though, that the bowyers back then, making bows in bulk for war, would purchase bulk amounts at a time to use. I would think farmers would have more than enough to sell from harvesting their live stock, just like today. Or quite more likely, the bowyer just used his own cows horns if he or his family owned live stock.
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Likely to be significantly more cattle in England at the time than stags.
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Only the lords were allowed to take deer. Not sure how this relates to antler. There was probably a worker whose job was to gather cast off antlers.
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i guess they used what they could get their Hands on, not every farmer would kill a cow per year and you could not find or harvest deerantler everyday, i think hornnocks were a luxury good like a car with Airbags, you don't always need them, but you're happy to have them
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What would be more readily available for outfitting a bow with nocks? A Cow provides one set per lifetime, a Red Deer stag would provide enough for perhaps five bows every year it was alive.
Oddly enough a Cows horn actually grows back when cut, takes a couple of years, so one Cow could provide horn for several warbows over its lifetime.
I do believe that it was Cow horn that was used for Warbow nocks, most of the time.
P.S. A Cows horn does not need to drilled to fit on the bow as the tip is a cone shaped hollow and perfectly round, once the "meat" dries and falls out after being cut.
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Wouldn't that depend on where the cut was made and at what stage of the growth?
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Cow horn is a LOT easier to cut than any antler. Certainly a consideration in mass producing bows for war.
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Have to know a bit more about the actual types of cattle typical back then. Polled cattle were likely selected for fairly early in the domestication process. That's going to reduce the available horn considerably.
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Wouldn't that depend on where the cut was made and at what stage of the growth?
You only need the last 2" or so of the Cows horn for horn nocks and that grows back fairly quickly, most likely a bit more was cut off to take advantage of this natural hollow you get. In those days all cattle had horns and growth started at an early age. I've seen 2 year old cows with 4" horns and these Cows had horns bred out of them. Original stock probably had respectable horns after 1 years growth.
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I would think it hard to say what the NORM was based off of only one surviving specimen. Could possibly be that the one that survived went against the norm.
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Cow horn is my bet. Cow horn however doesn't tend to be the best material.
Who said elk antler????? Aye we've got loads of elk knocking about here on our green and pleasant land........
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Is there any art work that is known of depicting english longbow nocks in any way?
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Well here's a painting painted in Germany around 1493-1494, located in Wallraf-Richartz-Museum, Cologne, depicting very clearly a black horn nock:
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/CrossbowmancockinghisweaponbymeansofamechanicaldeviceDetailofanaltarpieceofStSebastianPaintedinCologneGermanyaround14931494Currentlocati-2.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/toomany7/media/CrossbowmancockinghisweaponbymeansofamechanicaldeviceDetailofanaltarpieceofStSebastianPaintedinCologneGermanyaround14931494Currentlocati-2.jpg.html)
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/CrossbowmancockinghisweaponbymeansofamechanicaldeviceDetailofanaltarpieceofStSebastianPaintedinCologneGermanyaround14931494Currentlocati-1.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/toomany7/media/CrossbowmancockinghisweaponbymeansofamechanicaldeviceDetailofanaltarpieceofStSebastianPaintedinCologneGermanyaround14931494Currentlocati-1.jpg.html)
Source: http://www.medievalwarfare.info/weapons.htm
The Mary Rose sank on July 19th, 1545, so this would of been around the same period. So is the consensus that this quote is bull, or was there actually an antler nock found? Anybody know?
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Don't take the colours in medieval artwork too seriously, a lot of them were exaggerated to display wealth, or simplified for ease of painting. The reds and blues alone in that painting wouldn't have been worn by soldiers.
In Weapons of Warre page 633:
"The nock is carved from the natural tip of a cow horn and is badly degraded. It is 70mm long with an internal diameter of 14mm and wall thickness of 1-2mm"
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Don't take the colours in medieval artwork too seriously, a lot of them were exaggerated to display wealth, or simplified for ease of painting. The reds and blues alone in that painting wouldn't have been worn by soldiers.
In Weapons of Warre page 633:
"The nock is carved from the natural tip of a cow horn and is badly degraded. It is 70mm long with an internal diameter of 14mm and wall thickness of 1-2mm"
Thank you WillS!
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No worries. So far only one single nock has been found from the ship, along with a few horn inserts from arrows. It's documented as cow horn, but there's obviously no way to know whether it was one material across the board, whether individual bowyers preferred different materials and so on.
What I find interesting is that there seem to be a few bowyers marks on the bows found that are the same, often with up to 10 totally different bows all having the same bowyers Mark (usually a pattern of arrows or chevrons, or a set of dots) so I guess there weren't many bowyers making the creme-de-la-creme bows and there may have been some competition/rivalry amongst them. This could have lead to fancy nocks or nock materials being used to distinguish the different bowyers so it's a real shame only one survived!
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Mike, I don't believe anyone said "Elk" antler but your Red Deer is the equivalent animal. Indeed the subspecies of our NA Elk actually extends well across Northern Eurasia before definitively even changing to a different subspecies.
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"Little Jack Horner sat in his corner
Working his butt off making buttons, combs, book covers, lant horns, tools, spoons, ladles, etc..."
Horners were very busy crafters, they were called upon to make numerous products from combs to "lant horns" (lanterns). Horn was the plastic of the day because it could be heated and molded into various shapes and was quite easy to work. Horn products were very much in demand and it is unlikely that there would be a demand for polled cattle (hornless) since it meant there was less of the cow to be sold. Most polled breeds of cows were established in the mid to late 1800's, long after the market for longbow nocks had faded out.
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I usually just lurk here, but know people who raised the Mary Rose and working next to it in Portsmouth dockyard I just have to reply.
from the trusts database;
(http://imageshack.com/a/img42/3996/skqy.png)
Unspecified/Identified horn side nock. only one found as it was not attached to a bow but stored wrapped thus surviving where all the others rotted away..
(http://imageshack.com/a/img849/3593/ogap.jpg)
No reason why the horn wasn't imported either, allegedly the staves came from Italian sources because the growing conditions were better
:)
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It seems to me that cow horn would have been the choice even if antler was equally available simply because it takes glue so well compared to antler.
"Little Jack Horner sat in his corner
Working his butt off making buttons, combs, book covers, lant horns, tools, spoons, ladles, etc..."
;D ;D ;D
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Here is an example of an antler nock. Not absolutely certain of the date for this bow but I'm pretty sure it's not a modern replica.
http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/26406/swiss-quot-chiemgauer-quot-bow
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Dang! That is a nice fit on that nock, thanks for posting the link, Pat. Graceful transition from wood to antler!
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I'm trying to locate the original source for that pic. I know Pierre Lansac posted the link to the museum that houses these bows. Can't remember if the museum is in France or Switzerland.
The work is exceptional for sure and shows that antler was used at least some of the time.
It would be interesting to know how antler would have coped with the submersion. It seems like bone type material would have been better preserved but naturally the nocks of either material would have certainly loosened.
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I'm trying to locate the original source for that pic. I know Pierre Lansac posted the link to the museum that houses these bows. Can't remember if the museum is in France or Switzerland.
The work is exceptional for sure and shows that antler was used at least some of the time.
It would be interesting to know how antler would have coped with the submersion. It seems like bone type material would have been better preserved but naturally the nocks of either material would have certainly loosened.
Well, had they been using hide glue for the join, the nock certainly would have been loose!
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Yes, but you might think that antler might just drop off and be found in the bottom of the bow containers if it was in fact used and stands submersion.
I think people do however assume that only hide glue was used in the old days.
I remember there being an article of a "primitive epoxy" being found on some ancient Roman armor or helmet that was used to attach metal scales or similar.
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I usually just lurk here, but know people who raised the Mary Rose and working next to it in Portsmouth dockyard I just have to reply.
from the trusts database;
(http://imageshack.com/a/img42/3996/skqy.png)
Unspecified/Identified horn side nock. only one found as it was not attached to a bow but stored wrapped thus surviving where all the others rotted away..
(http://imageshack.com/a/img849/3593/ogap.jpg)
No reason why the horn wasn't imported either, allegedly the staves came from Italian sources because the growing conditions were better
:)
Thank you Matt!
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That pic is straight from the Mary Rose trust. It's the one featured in Weapons of Warre.
For what it's worth, a lot of the top warbow makers today are experimenting with removable nocks. Both Steve Stratton and Dave Pim have made bows where the nocks aren't glued on at all. With a side nock like the one found, the cut actually goes into the wood of the tip as well. This means that the nock can be taken off, then placed back on when used. The string is attached via two bowyers knots and the groove made in the bow tip keeps it all in place unlike a normal horn nock which needs to be glued there.
In fact Steve is of the opinion that the strings were kept tied to both nocks at all times. The bottom horn nock would be slipped over the bottom limb tip, and the bow bent to allow the top horn nock to be placed over the top limb tip.
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This is a photo I took myself of the one surviving horn nock - clearly it's not black like buffalo horn!
You can see the single side nock, and if you look at the bow tip next to it on the left, the groove left in the wood is pretty obvious.
Roy King made a replica of this exact nock to identical dimensions, and tried it on numerous bows. It fitted a lot of them almost perfectly, with the slot cut in the horn matching exactly to the groove left in the tips of the bows, so it's fairly safe to assume that the horn nocks were made to a standardised shape and pattern with routine measurements, and were so similar that they could have been swapped from bow to bow.
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb363/Will_Sherman/Mary%20Rose%20Museum%202013/Bows/IMAG0332_zps472af05f.jpg) (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Will_Sherman/media/Mary%20Rose%20Museum%202013/Bows/IMAG0332_zps472af05f.jpg.html)
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Can you imagine trying to remove the nock from heavy draw weight warbow if a bowyers knot was used top and bottom on the string and the string was supposed to fit into the groove in the wood? You would have to be Hercules to accomplish such a feat
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It seems to work just fine on Dave's 110# bow. He posted a pic of it in the warbow section a while back. Nocks not glued on at all, both using side nocks and bowyers knots. With a stringer I can't see it being a problem.
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I hate removing bowyers knots from any bow for that matter, I always use at least one loop. Very cool picture Will! You think it could of been black though about 500 years ago when it was fresh? Really, after being underwater so long, it's a wonder enough that it even exists. It's cool how you can tell it was rasped (or worked, or what ever) at the skirt of the nock, to do away with any step that would hinder stringing the bow. As the nock would most likely not be naturally shaped this way. Somewhat pointing to the use of loops that would be slid up the bow limb like today? ;D
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I agree (the separate nocks theory isn't one I share by the way) that it looks like the transition is deliberately as smooth as possible. And yeah, there's really no telling what colour it was, but it certainly looks now like normal cow horn, and if Alex Hildred and Roy King say it's cow horn I'm inclined to believe them!
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I agree (the separate nocks theory isn't one I share by the way) that it looks like the transition is deliberately as smooth as possible. And yeah, there's really no telling what colour it was, but it certainly looks now like normal cow horn, and if Alex Hildred and Roy King say it's cow horn I'm inclined to believe them!
Well I'm satisfied anyway, I just wanted to check with everybody before I write this ebay seller off as full of it. It rubs me wrong, as I don't know anywhere else to buy yew in the states at the moment, and his staves tempt me on a daily basis, but then again I wonder what he isn't showing in the pictures if he has a tendency to be full of it. He has 6 staves for 360.00, which seem like a good deal for 60 a stave, but 3 he called practice staves.
P.S. I fixed all my errors and typos in the above message, I have no idea how you read that thing, haha.
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It's honestly Russian roulette with him. You might end up with a decent stave, but it's a fair chunk of money for the risk. I hear that Carson from Echo Archery (who is member on here) supplies really good yew so maybe he's the guy to ask?
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It seems to work just fine on Dave's 110# bow. He posted a pic of it in the warbow section a while back. Nocks not glued on at all, both using side nocks and bowyers knots. With a stringer I can't see it being a problem.
Did they use stringers in the days of warbows?
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Yes, but you might think that antler might just drop off and be found in the bottom of the bow containers if it was in fact used and stands submersion.
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Exactly. Antler is like bone, and full skeletons of man and dog where found, but only very few items of horn survived (only with some sort of extra protection).
This is a photo I took myself of the one surviving horn nock - clearly it's not black like buffalo horn!
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Cow horn is not black but white to dark grey; only water buffalo horn is shiny black, and that they did not have.
PS: I'm convinced antler has been used, too, if available. It's really not that difficult to work.
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there is black cow horn, not uncommon at all
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It seems to work just fine on Dave's 110# bow. He posted a pic of it in the warbow section a while back. Nocks not glued on at all, both using side nocks and bowyers knots. With a stringer I can't see it being a problem.
Did they use stringers in the days of warbows?
Some. There are Mary Rose bows that show clear second grooves for stringers, but there are also guys I've shot with who can use the step-through method on a 120# bow.
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Cow horn is not black but white to dark grey; only water buffalo horn is shiny black, and that they did not have.
I've used pure jet black cow horn before. In fact on the first bow I ever made I used local cow horn and it was jet black with some very faint colour streaks running through it.
This was my first ever attempt at making a horn nock (copied the MR almost identically, but the side nocks didn't work out. I've never got them to work!)
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb363/Will_Sherman/Bows%20and%20Arrows/WP_000450.jpg) (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Will_Sherman/media/Bows%20and%20Arrows/WP_000450.jpg.html)
But that is cow horn.
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It seems to work just fine on Dave's 110# bow. He posted a pic of it in the warbow section a while back. Nocks not glued on at all, both using side nocks and bowyers knots. With a stringer I can't see it being a problem.
Did they use stringers in the days of warbows?
Some. There are Mary Rose bows that show clear second grooves for stringers, but there are also guys I've shot with who can use the step-through method on a 120# bow.
I'm sorry Will but I still can't see it. If the horn nock had another groove for a stringer then how would they be able to slip the nock off the bow when it's under tension from the stringer? You would need 2 people to be able to slip the nock off a warbow of any substantial draw weight when using a bowyers knot at both ends, not very practical.
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Yeah I agree. It's a theory, that's all. Perhaps some were double knots and strung without a stringer, and some were different? When I saw the bows and handled a few, there were lots with a second groove on the top nock, and lots without which suggests different methods of stringing.
All I know is that some guys have successfully made and shot bows over 110# using removable horn nocks, Steve Stratton and Dave Pim to name two. Both insanely talented bowyers. There's also (I think) a thread over on PP all about it, but I've not read it in years. I'll see if I can find it, but it might have been on the EWBS forum in which case I can't post it here.
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I can't find anything online, so I've posted a thread about it on the EWBS forum. Hopefully Dave Pim will answer, or somebody else who knows more. Next time I chat to Steve I'll ask him as well.
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Right. According to some highly informed guys, the Mary Rose bows don't show evidence of removable nocks, but removable nocks do work on heavy warbows. I'll have to watch some guys stringing them at the next warbow shoot to see how it's done. For this discussion though, related to the MR bows, apparently it's a no go.