Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Don Case on December 18, 2013, 03:37:21 pm
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I just found out that Ocean Spray sinks. I knew it was heavy but I thought wood had to be exotic hardwood to sink. It just sinks so the SG must be just over 1. Probably not that big a deal unless you drop your bow in a lake :-\
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Don
was it green or dry?
willie
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Probably not ocean spray then it has almost exact same average SG as Osage so let's see a pic of it sinking
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After the first one sank I tried two more pieces. The driest was a small piece 1/2 "x1/2" x4" that was cut off a stave last August. It has no bark or finish on it so I think it's about as dry as it gets. they all sank.
Don
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Musta been some good stuff!
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Here ya go. It's OS, I'd bet my house on it :D
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Don
I would like to find some ocean spray like that. Could you tell a little more about how old the tree was and the growing conditions it had?
willie
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Wow that's crazy
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It's from an area that is about 35 year old second growth. It's growing with salal , cascara, alder, willow and fir. It's on a slope, kind of dampish. The surrounding trees are about 40-50' tall. The shade makes the OS grow taller I think. In the area I collect I think the OS is on its last legs. It will be shaded out in the next 20 years or so. I just counted the rings on a 2" diameter offcut and it was around 20 years old, give or take a couple. Where are you?
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Don
I am quite a bit further north of Vancouver Island in Alaska, and can only hope to find some of the hardwoods you have further south. Theres is a lot of places up here that haven't been well reported on yet, though. I like to keep my eyes open for new stuff when exploring. Thanks for the insite
willie
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there is a denser wood out there and it aint oceanspray ;D ;) its my little secret bow wood >:D
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why do I think it wont be a secret for long? ;)
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I may post the bow, but I won't reveal the wood MWAHAHAAHA!
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there is a denser wood out there and it aint oceanspray
Im gonna guess mountain mahogany. Or its something tropical, cause I haven't found anything denser than that in the states.
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Will you at least tell us if a local wood? Is the density all that important? Yew isn't that dense.
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I totally agree density does not equal good bow wood.
I've talked about it before. And if you guess it I will let you know if your right:)
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Why do I think that we won't see the bow either? >:D
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I totally agree density does not equal good bow wood.
I've talked about it before. And if you guess it I will let you know if your right:)
Madrone?
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I have only worked two OS bows, they were both heavier than osage. Very heavy woods commonly are bad about chrysaling OS is not at all bad at anything that I know about, one of the best woods I have ever worked with.
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Why do I think that we won't see the bow either? >:D
You'll see it when it's all prettied up :)
Nope not Madrone.
Steve, that OS will sometimes fret around knots but generally there not too severe to throw the bow out.
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How about a little insentive. If you guess the wood I will send you a stave :)
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Hawthorn?
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Elderberry?
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Hawthorn?
Thats my guess, too...
Don C., I'm getting on the Ferry soon! I need some of that OS you got......
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Sea grape :-\ or maybe Mongolian tulipwood >:D
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or maybe snake wood
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How about Oregon grape or toyon.
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Red Osier
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Persimmon?
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Nope!
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Larch! Ha! Please bring my staves over asap. thanks
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Persimmon, blue beech, honey suckle
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apple
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Huckleberry
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Think PNW guys. Sorry for the thread jack don
Huckleberry is surprisingly light.
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It wasn't an important thread anyway and huckleberry was just a wild a$$ed guess, I've wanted to make a huckleberry bow, the character of character bows.
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Mesquite?
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Canyon live oak?
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serviceberry?
has anyone said osage :D or.... really dense yew ???
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Rhododendron or Pacific Ninebark?
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Mock orange or black hawthorn?
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Let me know when yah need a hint;)
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Hint?
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doug fir
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*Fruit bearing*
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Indian Plum
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Indian Plum
BINGO WAS HIS NAME-O!!!
Also known as Osoberry, Bear berry, Skunk bush.
Sole species of Oemleria. And like most bow woods has a medicinal trait as a mild an anesthetic.
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I looked up indian plum and its not as hard as dogwood so I went with that. This is a dumb game and I want some staves. You just like Dan better! >:(
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Hahahaha Steve I'm pretty sure you have a stave if Indian plumb that you got from Carson.
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Oh yea you're right! What am I, a moron?!
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Rhododendron or Pacific Ninebark?
Also good bow woods.
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I read through the whole thread, but had a feeling you were talking about Osoberry. I have found some big enough for flatbows, very nice wood!
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I read through the whole thread, but had a feeling you were talking about Osoberry. I have found some big enough for flatbows, very nice wood!
Same here! They are a rarity that's for sure. Grow a little twisted but they it makes a darn nice shooting bow.
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Rhododendron or Pacific Ninebark?
Also good bow woods.
I do like Rhodendron, not real heavy, but relatively snappy. gotta trow up some pics of my bow someday. Good news/bad news about Rhodedndron - you're always going to have a character bow!
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We have over 50 30 year old rhodos in our yard and there ain't even one billet in the works. Methinks a rhodo bow is a rare bow.
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We have over 50 30 year old rhodos in our yard and there ain't even one billet in the works. Methinks a rhodo bow is a rare bow.
You just gotta know where to look ;)
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Rhododendron or Pacific Ninebark?
Also good bow woods.
I do like Rhodendron, not real heavy, but relatively snappy. gotta trow up some pics of my bow someday. Good news/bad news about Rhodedndron - you're always going to have a character bow!
Not always;) I've got a couple branchless short poles I managed to get really nice billets from.
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Do you use garden variety or native rhodo?
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I have a nice, relatively short, reflexed Rhody stave that has been drying for a year and is nearly as heavy as any wood I've seen. FWIW>
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Do you use garden variety or native rhodo?
Not sure found it growing on the grandparents land.
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I got a piece from the Crystal Springs Rhododendron Garden. It's about as big around as your leg and weighs about 30lbs
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Umm interersting...all the rhododdendran we have here is heavy when you cut it it but once it's dried you are left with a brittle ,very ligth,piece of junk!
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I got a piece from the Crystal Springs Rhododendron Garden. It's about as big around as your leg and weighs about 30lbs
Do they know you got it ;) ;)
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Yep. The smaller pieces I have dried very lightweight. There are so many varieties though its a wonder we have so many different experiences.
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Yes Don. I was with the city hordiculturealist responsible for that area. He showed my all kinds of different plants and was fascinated about making bows.
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I knew you were going to say Indian Plum, but found the thread too late. I have my doubts about it being denser than OS, or Nine-bark (or seven-bark as some of us know it ;D), but hey I haven't found any worth cutting yet, so I don't know. I do like it for shoot shafts, doesn't check as easily as OS.
Great Pic Don. I do like Tim Baker describes in TBBI or II and dry samples in the oven for an hour or so at 425. I wonder if it still sinks after that treatment. I wouldn't be surprised!
Bryce cut me some dandy OS last spring, and some of it is coming of age nicely. Several were lost to due neglect on my part and I knew better :( Those are destined for some creative Laminate projects. 8) ...but there are two absolute stunners in that stash. Beautifully clean and even natural reflex along a nice 60-66 length. ~ 1" diameter and they should make some fine bows. Thanks Bryce!
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I'm not entirely sure it's denser either. I took some 1'sq. prices into water and it was back and forth between the OS and Indian plum.
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I guess it Just depends on the individual bush.
Floating is OS just under the water surface.
Bottom is plum.
Two pieces picked at random.
(http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh544/bryceott/ECD429D8-3DBC-464A-89DF-8BFEF51F44F3.jpg) (http://s1251.photobucket.com/user/bryceott/media/ECD429D8-3DBC-464A-89DF-8BFEF51F44F3.jpg.html)
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I just put a piece in the oven, we'll see in an hour or so. I have tried to float 4 or 5 pieces and they all sunk. Granted, they were collected in Aug or Sept so they may be dampish. The piece that's in the oven now got soaked for a half hour two days ago in a different experiment so I put it in the microwave for a minute and it was steaming when I took it out so there is some water in it. It weighed 34 grams when I put it in the oven.
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What wood are you testing don?
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OS, we don't have Indian Plum this far north. When I was guessing yesterday I was going through my Pojar and Mckinnon and posting names. I got to Indian Plum and thought," if I win it would cost an arm and leg to ship it to Canada." So I didn't post. Twenty minutes later Dan posted.
The OS in the oven is down to 31 grams and is starting to smell like dry hay. I'll wait til the weight stabilizes and then float it, or try to.
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Weight never went down any more. It was already pretty dry and had 2 1/2 hours at 400 degrees . It still sinks. Local OS has an SG greater than 1. :D
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There's a myth woven through this thread. Go to the Forest Products Laboratories web site and look at the mechanical properties of wood, in particular, specific gravity.
If you look at the values for green and oven dry wood, you will find that dry wood ALWAYS has a higher specific gravity than green wood. After oven drying, it will weigh considerably less, but it will have shrunken even more, so that its weight for a given volume has increased. That means, it will float lower in the water or sink faster than green wood.
Specific gravity is the ratio between the mass of a substance and the mass of an equal volume of water.
Jim Davis
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A little bit off topic here, but has anyone noticed that when you heat up OS (toasting the belly or when you get it hot on a power sander) it starts to smell like popcorn? Toasting the bellies on ocean spray bows is a treat!
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I wondered about that when I was cooking it. I did think that the water might leave air spaces when it left which might leave the wood more buoyant. Anyway it was just a curiosity thing because as far as I know there is no direct relationship between SG and bow quality. We already knew that OS was a very heavy wood, it's just a little heavier than I thought
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A little bit off topic here, but has anyone noticed that when you heat up OS (toasting the belly or when you get it hot on a power sander) it starts to smell like popcorn? Toasting the bellies on ocean spray bows is a treat!
I thought it smelled like hay. It's a nice smell anyway.
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Hmmmm. I've used Indian plum and it's far less dense here on Vancouver island (.65 max I guess - grows in Parksville Don C); however I have found an indigenous wood denser than OS (which i find somewhere around .85+ usually).
.97 for another mystery wood here in BC. Way tougher than OS in compression.
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Cut pieces off other OS staves(air dried) they all sank to the bottom.
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Hmmmm. I've used Indian plum and it's far less dense here on Vancouver island (.65 max I guess - grows in Parksville Don C); however I have found an indigenous wood denser than OS (which i find somewhere around .85+ usually).
.97 for another mystery wood here in BC. Way tougher than OS in compression.
Where are you getting the SG, do you figure it yourself? Mystery wood? Another quiz? A weekend of surfing for the prize?
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A little bit off topic here, but has anyone noticed that when you heat up OS (toasting the belly or when you get it hot on a power sander) it starts to smell like popcorn? Toasting the bellies on ocean spray bows is a treat!
I love the smell of toasted ocean spray. You have to try it with a coat of shellac....I couldn't stop smelling my OS bow while scraping ;D Glad I am not the only one!
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Hmmmm. I've used Indian plum and it's far less dense here on Vancouver island (.65 max I guess - grows in Parksville Don C); however I have found an indigenous wood denser than OS (which i find somewhere around .85+ usually).
.97 for another mystery wood here in BC. Way tougher than OS in compression.
Where are you getting the SG, do you figure it yourself? Mystery wood? Another quiz? A weekend of surfing for the prize?
Nine-bark? John Kelley pointed out to me how dense that wood is. I have some billets almost ready to work...excited to see.
Don, it is pretty much a percentage. Volume displaced/total volume I believe. I havent done a proper test in awhile, but I used a graduated cylinder to measure the displacement of pieces.
Interesting point Ash arrow....for my own testing it works to dry the wood completely in the oven, simply as a standardization step. I am not sure how you can compare one wood to another if they have different moisture contents when tested.
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I did a little search and there seems to be at least 3 or 4 accepted methods of measuring SG. Some use "oven dry" wood, some use 6%, some use 12%.
I weigh the piece of wood. I put a container of water on my scale(metric) and zero it out. I hang the piece of wood on a string and lower it into the water without touching the sides or bottom. When it's submerged read the scale. Because 1cc of water weighs 1 gram what you read on the scale is the same as the volume of the wood in cc. Divide the weight by the volume and you have SG. In my sample the volume was 32cc and the weight was 32 grams. My scale is only accurate to 1 gram and with a sample this small the best I can say is that it has an SG of 1. The real world verifies this because when I hung the wood in the water it almost looked like it was going to float but it went under. So it's right on the cusp. It would be good wood for making submarines ;) As I said before this is all kind of meaningless drivel but that's the stuff I thrive on.
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That nine bark was some HARD wood idk if it's denser....then again it could be.
We all understand that density does not reflect. Woods ability for bow making correct? Ok good! Let's continue!
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While looking for SG info I was looking at lots of wood sites. Is there one factor more than others that we should be looking at. There is elasticity, compression, hardness and others. Elasticity sounds like the right one but what do I know?
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I just cut a length and drop it into a long thin cylinder of water. Just subtract what sticks out from the whole and you have the sg ratio. Wood has to be dry though.
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I just cut a length and drop it into a long thin cylinder of water. Just subtract what sticks out from the whole and you have the sg ratio. Wood has to be dry though.
That's clever, I like that.