Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: DuBois on December 11, 2013, 02:10:42 am
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I recently tillered my kids bows over my knee and it got me wondering how it was done before all the pulleys and trees and such.
Anybody still doing it purely aboriginal or primitive on here?
Thanks in advance, M. Doob
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And also, do you think it effected the designs due to things like no vice or scraper of steel, or do you just think it slowed them down some and maybe made them better bowyers in having time to think more with the slower process?
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Im willing to bet that they just had an experienced dude to the side as they went full draw with a bit of charcoal from the fire pit to show where it was bending too much... Or, as I like to do, have an assistant pull it back while I look.
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By eye and feel I am sure. :)
Pappy
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Most of them proably lived in tribes like twin oaks and had old experienced guys like Pappy showing them how to do it.
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By eye and feel as Pappy says. To draw the bow so the master could check tiller would be the apprentices job I rekon :)
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The same way me and my friends do when we gather. The builder pulls the bow to a draw length and all his buddy's look at it and a decision is made based on what we all see. That is 10x more effective than any tree or single set of eyes and my best tillered bows came from our gatherings.
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Why don't we just ask Pappy and see? >:D
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;) ;D ;D ;D we do it by eye and feel now,after it is getting fairly close. ;) :)
Pappy
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Gee....sounds like I'm gonna have to wait till beginning of may when I see pappy next to build a bow so I can get his approval of my bend :laugh:
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halfeye (Rich) bends his over his knee during the whole process, even heat bends over his knee. You would probably be surprised at how they tillered . They may in fact have used what we call floor tiller and came very close to a finished bow. And probably as sleek mentioned there were probably a few that excelled and done many bows for people.
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Same as us... by eye and feel. All the rest (photos, video 'MS paint' etc), is just stuff to aid the eye...
Del
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I would guess with a knowledgable friend at first, maybe watching shadows of the curve, could have made a real primitive leverage system. tree branches to rest the bow on and an antler tine wedged near the base and thats your "pully" system... I have no basis for this what so ever :D
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Might be a good idea Chris. ::) :-\ ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D
Pappy
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Didnt most tribal societies have a specialist system. a bowyer, a fletcher, a material gatherer etc. I would bet there was a master bowyer and others learned basics. Ishi made his own bows and arrows but I would think that was out of necessity being there were about 5 people in his group (not sure how many were found with him). maybe the hunters/warriors need to learn more techniques to be able to fix any issues while out on a hunt or during a long excursion of some sort... again no basis except speculation, correct me as needed!
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I was dinkin around on YouTube not too long ago and found some old footage of a old Native American man making a bow. I will try to find it. He used nothing modern. It was a sinew backed juniper paddle bow. He made his own glue and pigment for the back. He use different grits of crystaly stone, and an antler wedge to split the stave out. Pretty cool footage.
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Here is the link. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UPcE2HkH-AM I'm sure some of you have seen this but still pretty cool
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The primitive, whoever they might be, are usually rather superstitious and traditional. They would have copied a well known good shooter as closely as possible, before and after stringing it, even to the point of copying its defects. But they are never dumb. So, by and by they figured out what really matters. We should listen more carefully to the guys who actually make replicas. I would love to have a real good stave bow in hand. I guess it's about time for me to make a replica of the Sudbury bow,
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It's not that hard, really. The same principles apply whether you're tillering with a power sander or a stone flake. Me, Barry McCall, and Pat built a bow with stone tools in three days at a shoot a few years ago, from cutting down the tree to shooting it, and making the string from a deer hide. we just used a "tillering tree." ;D
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...
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Cool stuff Steve. thanks for sharing.....wonder why yins guys chose a hickory sapling ::) :laugh:
Pearly n I did that at a shoot a couple years ago with an elm sapling,but never finished it...blistering hot temps stopped us from finishing it...but this year he brought a lil elm sapling to one of the shoots...and a bunch of us guys sat around the fire with nothing but hand tools passing the stave around till we got it shooting,and we all assessed the bend as whoever was scraping on it at the time bent it...good times and fellowship amongst good friends ;)
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Speaking of pappy assessing tiller ;)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x436/blackhawk28/IMG_20130802_205850_887.jpg) (http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/blackhawk28/media/IMG_20130802_205850_887.jpg.html)
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An here's the ole man scraping away :D
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x436/blackhawk28/IMG_20130802_203947_616.jpg) (http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/blackhawk28/media/IMG_20130802_203947_616.jpg.html)
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The ole man taking her for a ride of approval or not ;)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x436/blackhawk28/IMG_20130802_203744_829.jpg) (http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/blackhawk28/media/IMG_20130802_203744_829.jpg.html)
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I made one with stone tools. I tillered by feel, shadows and by holding it over my head as I short drew it.
One was enough. LOL.
Jawge
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One is all ya need jawge ;) ;D
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When they found something that worked they kept doing it, when they found a wood that worked they kept using it.
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This is all cool stuff guys. Makes me want to give it a try.
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Great pics guys... why am I stuck at this desk? >:(
Del
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Great pics guys... why am I stuck at this desk? >:(
Del
Wouldn't have anything to do with needing to fund the mortgage, weekly groceries, and care for / clothing of offspring would it? That's what keeps me tied to this danged desk I'm tied to...
OneBow
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I would assume they accomplished the same "process" with the tools of their time. You know, I've heard the first tillering gizmo, invented by Krog's son, which eventually became "Krewson", was a stick with a hole in it, with another pointed, charred, stick pushed through the hole. The toughest part though was Dean Torges trying to get them to understand what a "facet" was. ;D
Yeah, I'm in a silly mood today.
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So many inside jokes...heh.
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After watching Jackcrafty scrape arrows with a chert chip and seeing Hillbillies "tree" I can't see any reason why they didn't do it exactly like us, and in the same time frame once they got it roughed out. I know they did it better than me because their bows actually provided meat.
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I'll sometime draw the bow ishi style while tillering. Very effective. If I'm unsure I'll but it on the pulley.
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The same way me and my friends do when we gather. The builder pulls the bow to a draw length and all his buddy's look at it and a decision is made based on what we all see. That is 10x more effective than any tree or single set of eyes and my best tillered bows came from our gatherings.
I'm sure that's it.
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We should have people reenact it. Just stick a bunch of kids in the woods for a couple months with some basic knowledge how to build a bow and see what they come up with. :laugh: I bet it would be pretty close to what they did.
And it would be called child abuse ::) but nobody would have to know ;)
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Lot of cool insights. I never have met another person who makes bows that I know of and other than the community of this forum, hadn't thought of it as a community project. I now see it must have been a center of many societies or at least brought the community together for a common cause.
Really cool seeing the guys there in the pics together building a bow as a group. Must have been a great time and learning experience.
Thank you, Marco DuBois.
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John Strunk doesn't use a tillering tree or pulleys.
Sets it in the vise and pulls on it, along with constantly running his fingers up and down the limbs to check the thickness.
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I got the privilege to do a 2 day one on one class with Mr. Strunk building a yew flatbow like in TBB 1. I can't remember how many times he had me run my fingers down the bow. Then I would draw it and he would see where it needed work then he would draw and I would look. It was an awesome 2 days and great way to start my bow making journey.
Brandon
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Is it possible to tiller a bow without repeatedly running your fingers down the limbs? Not for me, but I'm just a newbie...
The lone bowyer probably checked tiller by looking at the shadow on a stretched hide. If your life depended on it, you'd certainly make a good bow!
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Is it possible to tiller a bow without repeatedly running your fingers down the limbs? Not for me, but I'm just a newbie...
The lone bowyer probably checked tiller by looking at the shadow on a stretched hide. If your life depended on it, you'd certainly make a good bow!
No, you can't actually tiller it, you need rasps, spokeshave, scrapers etc :laugh:, BUT you can feel if you have an even thickness taper, you can feel dips and bumps easier than you can see them. Gotta use all your senses. You can also feel if one edge of the bow is thicker than the other.
Del
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You can also feel if one edge of the bow is thicker than the other.
Del
That was my biggest issue for awhile. I couldn't ever get it square it was always off. Until I learned this!
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I always hold the limb up to the light or in front of a window where I can see the thickness in silhouette. I can always tell by looking where the thick spots are and whether I have a consistent thickness taper. I can tell where it's going to be stiff by looking at the thickness.
That combined with reading the grain on the belly side. If you have a thick spot outboard of thinner area it will show up as an island of grain. That even counts through roller coasters and twists. If you follow the back, thickness wise, the ring lines on the sides of the belly will be straighter (more parallel to each other) if thickness is consistent. If you see the ring lines wave in and out, you've got thick and thin spots. That also counts on side to side thickness. If the points of the ring lines are all off to one side, the limb is thicker on one side (in general there are exceptions to that). In general, to have a consistent thickness taper (and side to side width) all the growth rings have to come to a point consecutively and centered on the belly all the way towards the tip. Kind of like chasing rings on the belly side only you want to cut through more and more rings as you get toward the tip. Of course that's not to say you couldn't intentionally make a limb thicker on one side to make it bend a certain way but that would also involve reading the grain and using what it's telling you. I'm finding if I get to floor tiller first while perfecting my taper properly I'm 97% there before I even put a string on it. Once I have it braced and see how it looks braced, I can refine it further by looking at my reflection in the shop window as I pull and exercise it by hand so I can feel the pull. I'm finding I use my tree to weigh the pull mostly these days.
Having said all that, the grain trick only works on a limb or stave. If it's a quartersawn board, the grain is going to look the same all the way down the limb so eyeing the thickness (and using the "feel the taper" method) is the way to go.
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Randman, I do it the same way, I actually chase one ring on the belly and then start putting in my tapers.
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Randman, I do it the same way, I actually chase one ring on the belly and then start putting in my tapers.
+1
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Badge, so you chase a belly and a back ring, then side tiller? May I see a pic of the belly of a bow you did like this?
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Sleek, if I can borrow a camera. Mine was stolen last year. They look just like any other belly, I only chase the ring down the center of the limb and then even up the lines on the side of it before starting my tapers.
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I do that also Steve on straight grained wood,it is a very good indicator if you are keeping the point right in the center.Don't always work so well on character wood
same as the Tiller gismo don't work that good on character staves with lot of humps/dips and dives in them,then it is almost all done by eye for me. :)
Pappy
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I'd away wanted that also, I once did a survile class where we were gave a seasoned sapleing. You teamed up with someone. We did it just by looking. A couple year later I met CROOKETARROW. HE'S BEEN MAKEING BOWS FOR OVER 50 YEARS. He said he just tiller by haveing someone draw while he looked. He told be thats how the IROQOIS had aways did it. Then he used a old fence post when I met him.
He also way blew me away just tillering on his lap. I built him a tree with a scale and pully. He said that was the best gift he's ever got. He used ir 7 or 8 brfore his death.
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I would like to think the primitives tillered by first drawing a circle in the sand; then bracing their bow against their foot and pulling it to check against the curve of the circle.
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Most of them proably lived in tribes like twin oaks and had old experienced guys like Pappy showing them how to do it.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hi everyone I'm new to this site and glad to have found it. I'm Dakota, born and raised in SD. Over the last year I've had one of those ah-ha moments and since have had deep passion to learn the old methods of bow making. In this day in age there is no one where I'm from making bows. In reading up on here, watching youtube, and reading some other books, I've been discussing my peoples history on bowmaking with my dad. He told me this story about a connection between king George 3 and my tribe. The king heard of a legend of one of the warriors being able to kill 2 buffalo with 1 arrow. The king dispatched an explorer, I think Longfellow? He was able to have a interpret/guide take him to this village. He met with the warrior and asked for a trade. The warrior didn't want to give up this bow for any amount of gold or jewels as they couldn't provide for his family as the bow could. As a sense of relevancy to this discussion the warrior told the kings men that the maker of the bow was really the one to talk to or get credit for the bows ability to kill even 1 buffalo.
So I think the ancient ones would have religious implications to the bows (as a shot out to the rules I just read being taboo I'd like to add a certain paradox to those rules..) Being the ancient ones relied on those tools to survive there would be a sense of godly power associated to those tools. Not to go all avatar but the natives to this land were and are still very much connected to the lands. p.s. the Kings explorer did come to a trade agreement with the warrior and returned the bow to the king. If anyone else knows of this story or knows where this bow may currently be located please let me know.
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Fascinating read there Jflute....
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In this day in age there is no one where I'm from making bows
Where are you from?
There are a few here,from SD that make bows.Maybe,they can help you.
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i cant say for sure on the "how". But as a 28 yr registered tribal member to echota cherokee-south of chaTtanooga bout 35 miles i can tell u that the pre white man cherokee nation organized school curriculums for children during the months when hardwoods had no foliage. Gathering having been done in spring and summer the adults spent winter days involved in some aszpect of the hunt. Each grade-agegroup of younguns occupied space underneath old growth eastern red cedars. Work stations remained fairly dry and parents could look down from any peak on ridges or mtns n know where their kids were. This was required til kids were 12 to 14 yrs. They learned from each other n from elders who were beyond abilities for harvest n curing of game. So by the time boys n girls were strong they were proficient aT all skills and each grade level had found their respective strengthsz n weakness for to best work together from then on. So i would guess the boy who understood bowyering best became the goto guy.
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Randman, I do it the same way, I actually chase one ring on the belly and then start putting in my tapers.
I have that going on now with a mulberry bow with fat rings I can see real good so I have tried to follow them on the belly side and it seems real good way so far.
I did some shadow tillering in the garage on a couple bows but there's 4 lights on the ceiling so... :o Still worked pretty good I think.
i cant say for sure on the "how". But as a 28 yr registered tribal member to echota cherokee-south of chaTtanooga bout 35 miles i can tell u that the pre white man cherokee nation organized school curriculums for children during the months when hardwoods had no foliage. Gathering having been done in spring and summer the adults spent winter days involved in some aszpect of the hunt. Each grade-agegroup of younguns occupied space underneath old growth eastern red cedars. Work stations remained fairly dry and parents could look down from any peak on ridges or mtns n know where their kids were. This was required til kids were 12 to 14 yrs. They learned from each other n from elders who were beyond abilities for harvest n curing of game. So by the time boys n girls were strong they were proficient aT all skills and each grade level had found their respective strengthsz n weakness for to best work together from then on. So i would guess the boy who understood bowyering best became the goto guy.
woe, thank you for this history. Makes perfect sense now that I read it.
And, thanks to all you guys for the replies.
Marco DuBois