Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Dan K on December 01, 2013, 06:23:51 pm
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I found a near perfect Ocean Spray's stave this last summer. I rought it out and cut a relief in the belly to avoid checking. It worked. I waited for the moisture to drop bellow 10% before cutting the profile. Dimensions are 1 3/8" at fades. 1" mid limb. 1/2" tips. It will have a 1" bulbous static handle. 68" ttt and 66" ntn. Hope to end up at 62#@28"
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/null_zpse9193886.jpg)
After working it short braced, it was bending nicely and adjusting to a slight hinge in the bottom limb (right)
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/null_zpsc117d43b.jpg)
After hearing a "pop" I found this
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/null_zps5115325b.jpg)
I flooded with CA but now want to know what the best approach is for saving the stave. I have sinew but don't want to waste it if its a lost cause. Any suggestions is appreciated.
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Sinew wrap, let it cure out really well, seal with thin superglue. Once you work up the nerve to continue tillering, let that section stay a little stiff. Good luck, I would love to see this one finished and entered for Bow of the Month.
Good luck with this one, brother
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Did the crack happen at the hinge in the right limb? The only time i've had OS crack is when the wood was rotten.
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Rawhide patch. Works wonders.
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I fixed the same type thing with artificial sinew wrapped on it and some titebond! I am sure sinew will be enough!
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are my eyes decieving me? that looks like a splinter on the belly. Is that the back?
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looks like the belly to me too. If there's a splinter on the belly you have a LOT less to worry about than one on the back. That thing may not have even been the sound you heard.
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That hinge is pretty severe, you may have to beef it up with something before continuing.
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Thanks JW I was thinking the same thing.
It's on the back. It's a one and a half inch round stave and a pretty flat back.
The splinter lifted right at the hinge. The hinge is gone now. Unfortunately I can't take a current picture because I don't want to bend the limb. I was really happy with the way it was bending on both sides and was flexing the limbs when the splinter lifted. If I can overcome this splinter this is going to be a serious bow.
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Is the back violated? It looks almost decrowned.
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Fix the hinge, then patch with rawhide and wrap it.
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Dan, I still don't understand how we are seeing the grain of the wood on the back without it being decrowned but if you say its the back then its the back.
Because I had the same thing happen to a decrowned OS that was rawhide backed. The rawhide didn't stick in that area and the splinter lifted. Looked just like that.
I'm sure you remember since it was you who pulled the bow when the splinter lifted?
Anyway, I would have CA'd it, clamped it so that the splinter was imperceptible when lightly sanded, and sinew wrapped it in two or three places (before, during, and after) with a matching set on the other limb. Capish?
It WILL be awesome.
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Correction, this splinter is on the opposite limb from the hinge. She was pulling 65# at 10" when I took the braced pic. I corrected the hinge and burnished the back to help prevent any more splinters.
No PatM the back is not violated nor decrowned. Just a good sized Ocean Spray.
I sinew wrapped it and letting it dry. Should I soke it with CA or hide glue?
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/null_zpsbe49cf42.jpg)
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Thank you all for your help!
Steve -all I did was debark and lightly sand off the cambium. Is this decrowning? I've never decrowned a bow so maybe I did without knowing.
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No, you are right, Dan, I guess what I just realized is that I so rarely see any grain on OS, especially the back, because I don't finish the back so well. I was working my big OS lever bow tonight and noting how there's, no grain, except in some spots on the belly.
So I'm not sure why the splinter lifted. Seems odd for such a short pull. Did you maybe sand too deep?
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That wrap will do virtually nothing to hold the splinter down. It takes quite a wad of material set in compatible glue to do that trick.
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There's a tiny pin knot right at the break. Only thing I can think is my scraper got caught on the pin and cut the fibers across the back. I sanded off the shellac and burnished the whole back. Hopeful this will reduce risk of it happening again.
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Ok Pat. How many wraps are you talking?
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Is there's two long cracks where the splinter lifted? In the pic u can see two dark lines from the splinter. Also every sinew wrap I've saw u can't see the bow through it. Maybe I'm wrong.
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What you should have done with the sinew was lay some down along the limb overlapping the crack by at least 2" on both sides then wrap with more sinew. I've done this many times with success
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Blaflair2 -there are cracks from the splinters edges up about an inch where it lifted.
Marc-thanks. I can redo no problem. I'm hung up on how to tiller once I have a wrap in the way. Do I lay down the patch over the crack parallel with the back with hide glue as if I were doing the whole bow, let cure, finish tiller then wrap? How Do you tiller around the wrap?
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Good question, Dan. That splinter popped so early. I'd be tempted to rawhide patch it with hide glue, no wrap, tiller as normal, then do the wrap later. You could remove the patch if you wanted.
I have some thick and thin rawhide and the glue ready to go if you want some.
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I would just flatten the back and remove the break altogether and sinew back the whole thing. Making a stiff spot in the limb is just going to bug you with the tiller.
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I would just flatten the back and remove the break altogether and sinew back the whole thing. Making a stiff spot in the limb is just going to bug you with the tiller.
+1
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I'm thinking the rawhide patch is the way to go on this one. After I finish tiller I can reassess how I want to finish the bow. Thanks all for the help! I'll post the money shot when I'm done.
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The patch I am suggesting would be similar to how you would patch a bicycle tube. I would do the whole patch at once with wrap. You would only do 1 course of sinew so it would not create a stiff spot. Use hot hide glue to soak the splinter before starting and lightly rough up the area where the patch will go, not enough to go through the first growth ring of course.
P.S. Sorry I wasn't thinking there. It would be hard to tiller once the wrap is in place. Do the patch and tiller till you are near fully tillered then do a wrap. I've done this patch without a wrap before so it should hold till you are near full tillered.
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I went with the rawhide patch and it seemed to work ok.
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/null_zps704d9b2f.jpg)
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/null_zps42a9eeda.jpg)
Worked the hinge out of the bottom limb. Her's an unbraced and a low brace.
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/null_zps1d45524b.jpg)
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/null_zpsf09fb121.jpg)
It's taken about three inches of set and I don't think I'll get more than about 30#@28". What about heat treating the set out and maybe flipping the tips to get some weight back?
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3" is a little excessive. You sure it's dry?
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It already "broke," don't strain it any more.
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If you would rather have a possibility of fire wood than a horribly performing bow... Then I would definitely flip tips, heat treat, and possibly add some more reflex if the flipped tips doesn't do enough. If it were me, not to spite you pat, I would definitely just add reflex and get all the weight and performance back. Nobody likes a quitter and I feel like I am if I just make a bow that will just sit in the corner forever then just TRY to make a good bow out of it. If I get pieces, it went out a real bow. If I get a bow, it will be an awesome performer. If I do nothing, it will sit in the corner of the rejected and actually will probably end up on the wall(who would want that! :o) or in the fire or you will probably try to make a good bow out of it when you just feel like messing with it. So, in summary, I would try to make a bow and I recommend you do. I didn't on my 3rd bow and now I am going to fix it up now. I don't care if it blows because I have a bunch of awesome ones that I would use over it any day.
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I would agree with that if the bow was to be sinewed but that has apparently been taken off the tables so it just seems too risky to try for all the potential performance gains.
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I would agree with that if the bow was to be sinewed but that has apparently been taken off the tables so it just seems too risky to try for all the potential performance gains.
But you did agree!!!!! >:D that means he should do it, your just a little on the cautious side with it being rawhide >:D LOL I would still do it because of my given reasons. I would much rather have a good bow or firewood than a crappy stick that sits in a corner. Think, if you had cancer(a cracked back is a bows cancer) would you want to just sit their and die slowly or have the chance to get an experiment done and you could be better than you were before but there is a risk of going out with a bang! I don't know about you guys, but I'd pick the second.
P.s. This is not to make fun of people with cancer or anything just it was the best comparison I could make. I had a few relatives die of it so this wasn't to be funny but again, best comparison. God bless
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Well sinew would be a proven cure so no I don't agree with potentially making it worse as the first solution.
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3" is a little excessive. You sure it's dry?
Well Bryce, not sure what dry is for Ocean Spray but it's under 10% My moisture reader only goes down to 10% and it doesn't even bounce so its probably under 8% for sure. I'm thinking the splinter and the moisture from the glue may have compromised that area (even with the patch) so it has taken set now when it didn't before. But the other limb I have no idea. I've scraped some since I put on the patch but not that much. Before the splinter lifted it was pulling above sixty pounds and about 1" of set now I'm around 30# with 3" set.What are your thoughts?
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Bring it over ;)
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Well the patch held however I lifted another splinter in the other limb -a really big one! :'(
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/null_zpsde82250b.jpg)
I think I'll take Marc's advise on this one and try sinew wrap! ;)
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/null_zps036aaf5c.jpg)
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You might try pushing it all into a PVC tube and filling it with epoxy >:D
Seriously that sucks the big one >:(. I'm also on a steep learning curve with OS. Makes me appreciate Zion's woek all the more.
Don
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Dan you need a security camera set up in your garage so we can review the tape and see what's going on.
Seriously, the majority of bows that I have seen, "lift a splinter on the back", have been OS. Frankly, I haven't seen very many finished OS bows. So I don't know if there is a tendency for OS to do this or not. Time will tell because I have a bunch to build in the near future.
Forget that moisture meter!
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Wood_bandit, Amirite? >:D
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This seems like some pretty incredible wood for sure and the only way to really learn is by doing. I'll be trying another soon. Unfortunately the other staves I have don't look as nice so not sure how they will turn out. I still don't really know what I'm doing that I know for sure. Thank you all for your help. Learned a lot on this one. Cheers!
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Dan if you think back. Did you de-bark when the OS was green? What did you use to get the bark off? I'm trying to remember how I took the bark of mine and I think I used a knife. I thought maybe we did something way back that contributed to "lifting a splinter".
Don
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Wood_bandit, Amirite? >:D
Just for done tillering a bow today and I look back at this and see that post.... I seriously laughed so hard when I saw that first. Lol just thought I should shut up before I say something retarded and start a real fight between me and everyone else >:D and yes you are right. Part of why I shut up ;)
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That is bad wood. Rot. Was that from Sylvan's that day? I tossed the one I drug home. It was punky. Tough break.
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Wood_bandit, Amirite? >:D
As cold as it is right now I did need fire wood and it made the kids happy and warm. Thanks for the advise wood_bandit. >:D
Don, I waited 4-5 months to debark. It checked on the belly so I went ahead and took the bark of and cut a groove through the belly to the pith to control the check. Worked like a charm! I just scraped the bark off with my scraper. Pretty easy work. I sprayed it real good with shellac and just let it go for a couple more months. I have learned from some folks that I should have cleaned and burnished the back right after floor tiller and before I put a string on it. I think there is a difference of opinion with this so comments are appreciated.
Carson, I can't remember for sure where this one came from. I didn't start marking my Staves until we got all that ash. I now know how important it is to date and label your wood. This piece was really clean throughout. I never did come across a stain, crack or soft spot while tillering. Should have made a phenomenal bow.
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I thought it looked like some grey brown near the center of the stave. in that last photo, maybe just the pith and it looks bigger/more widespread than it is.
Seeing as how it is lifted in the same spot as the opposite limb, maybe you were stressing those inner limbs in your design, thickness taper. If you are not willing to let the wood take the fall...then I blame you! ;D ;D
Yup, marking your wood is a good practice. So is burnishing. I think Marc St. Luis wrote in a recent Q&A column that he quite burnishing after he looked at the back fibers under a microscope/mag lens before and aft and determined the burnishing was crushing back fibers. I think this caused some healthy re-examination of burnishing. I am now of the opinion that burnishing does crush the outer back fibers, but I think that is the very reason it is an effective practice. Think of the back fibers as layers, and that they are only as strong as the weakest link in the that layer. So if you have a little nick somewhere in that outermost layer of fibers, then you have a chink in your armor. If you burnish the back, then you are crushing the entire outer layer and passing the work onto the next layer below, which is unviolated and now protected by a compressed/crushed outer layer of fibers. Maybe or maybe not that would have helped your bow.
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Nail right on head Carson.
Danos showed me the stave a couple weeks ago and it was a nice one. I do believe I told him to burnish the back as well:)
I just leave the bark on. Cut in the winter, and the bark stays on. No worries :)
Anyways, danos that patch seemed to hold pretty dang good:)
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Dan
I really can't remember if I took the bark off right away or not. I was to the point of starting to think it was time to pretty this thing up. There was little bits of cambium that I scraped off. I remember wondering if I was scraping too deep as what I was scraping off was a different colour than the wood I had been scraping on the belly during tillering. I wrote it off to sapwood/ heartwood differences. I wasn't doing anything radical, maybe 3 or 4 scrapes in an area. The area where mine splintered(I wrapped it with linen thread and CA'd it) was an area that had been steamed(maybe twice). I did notice that steaming kind of bleached out the wood and made it kind of rough to the touch. That's about all I know. The bow may survive, I'm waiting for this dry weather to pass. I'm a little gun-shy.
Don
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Seeing as how it is lifted in the same spot as the opposite limb, maybe you were stressing those inner limbs in your design, thickness taper. If you are not willing to let the wood take the fall...then I blame you! ;D
I take blame on this one. I'm learning there are many defects in every piece of wood. I need to hone my skills on seeing them and working them into the bow.
I'm in agreement on burnishing too. I'd like to read that article if you have the link.
Don -do you have pics you can share? Since we're sharing knowledge we may as well make the best of it!
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Here's a link to my thread. I'll post some as/is pictures tomorrow.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,43701.0.html
OOPS
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Link?
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It's nice that you can go back and modify your post then nobody knows you're a screw-up. ::) ::)
Here it is again
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,43701.0.html
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I think I'll take Marc's advise on this one and try sinew wrap! ;)
I say go for it ::)
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I think these type of posts show that the art of debarking a stave that isn't a simple green peeling is a very poorly executed art.
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I think these type of posts show that the art of debarking a stave that isn't a simple green peeling is a very poorly executed art.
Pat you couldn't have said any better.
I wrote this blog post last night after debarking some staves and recently discovering for myself that it truly is an art.
http://echoarchery.blogspot.com/
The Virtues of a Dull Blade: Stave Debarking
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On my next OS bow I was wondering about just taking the top layer of bark off. It was collected in August and the bark was left on. There is a post here somewhere about "bark on" OS but I can't find it now. Would there be less tendency for the bark to pop off or cause problems if I just take off the gray layer and leave the inner bark?
Thanks for the link Carson, now I have a few days reading.
Don
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Cut in the coldest part of winter and the bark stays on really well. Sometimes it will pop off around a knot or something but it makes a good looking bow. Just steel wool the back.
(http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh544/bryceott/0CBC0947-8A4F-4A7B-8806-6E2B53C905F3.jpg) (http://s1251.photobucket.com/user/bryceott/media/0CBC0947-8A4F-4A7B-8806-6E2B53C905F3.jpg.html)
(http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh544/bryceott/9372B7F3-EE15-4B08-B7D3-F0115826C3AF.jpg) (http://s1251.photobucket.com/user/bryceott/media/9372B7F3-EE15-4B08-B7D3-F0115826C3AF.jpg.html)
Sorry for the hijack :)
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I think these type of posts show that the art of debarking a stave that isn't a simple green peeling is a very poorly executed art.
Pat you couldn't have said any better.
I wrote this blog post last night after debarking some staves and recently discovering for myself that it truly is an art.
http://echoarchery.blogspot.com/
The Virtues of a Dull Blade: Stave Debarking
It's even more important (and difficult) when working on staves like HHB where the bark sits in the rippled grooves of the back. I see many HHB bows with the high spots nicked and the cambium left in the troughs.
It use the tip of a spoon and plough all the bark off, high or low. That attention to detail goes a long way to eliminating the possibility of breakage.
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I think these type of posts show that the art of debarking a stave that isn't a simple green peeling is a very poorly executed art.
Pat you couldn't have said any better.
I wrote this blog post last night after debarking some staves and recently discovering for myself that it truly is an art.
http://echoarchery.blogspot.com/
The Virtues of a Dull Blade: Stave Debarking
It's even more important (and difficult) when working on staves like HHB where the bark sits in the rippled grooves of the back. I see many HHB bows with the high spots nicked and the cambium left in the troughs.
It use the tip of a spoon and plough all the bark off, high or low. That attention to detail goes a long way to eliminating the possibility of breakage.
Vinemaple can be the same way. But I have debarked some of that HHB and it's a BEAST! For sure.
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Cut in the coldest part of winter
That would have been yesterday ;)
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The only staves I have were cut this summer so the bark should come off. I understand winter cut OS bark stays on so Bryce should be OK. I'm in rout to Sao Paulo Brazil and won't be back until Friday so you may not hear from me for a while. Tough job I know but it pays well so I'm doing it! ;D
I hope Steve b speaks up cause he's played with a few OS recently and can share some good info.
I'm going cutting when I get home so I have some winter staves to play with next year and compare.
I've not apprechiated the importance of deparking but think that was an issue on this one for me. Next one I wll definately really prep clean the back and burnish before sealing. I used shellac by the way and it worked great.
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Cool! Have fun.
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I'm still skeptical about a nick on the back of this OS bow causing it to explode. I mean it wasn't even a finished bow. 60+ lbs. might have been too much for this particular stave but it sounds like it was pulled about half way, tops, and then it broke. The 3" of set is puzzling too. Even with a violated back it should have survived for awhile.
I have a VM bow that I've shot alot and it has a huge gullwing bend because of it's original 5" set back handle. And it has rot running through both limbs.
As far as debarking or not. I debark as soon as possible because i don't want to fight it later. With VM it peels off like celery when green but at some point as it dries it also pops off in sheets and leaves a pristine back. When there's lots of knots I peel off the smooth stuff and wait for that shrinking to take place to pop the bark off around the knots. I just use a screwdriver or whatever to pry up the bark and it'll just pop off all around the knots. So I never nick the back cuz i don't use a blade.
For OS, I cut the trees down, get it home and asap use the drawknife to slice off the outer bark, leaving the cambium. I then grab my cabinet scraper and scrape off the inner bark. This all takes place in just minutes. If you let the stave sit for awhile the inner bark will oxidize like a peeled apple so its easy to see the bark vs. the wood, the latter remaining whitish. So I just scrape off the dark stuff which comes off mushy--kinda like scraping off mud since its all so wet.
I've only ever left the bark on one bow and it was hazelnut so I have virtually no experience with leaving bark on when cut in winter or summer. That bow developed cracks all over the bark even though I sealed it. Whenever I drew it I could hear the crackling, but never a problem. One day I scraped off the now hardened bark and there were no cracks anywhere in the wood. So I think it would have been fine with those surface cracks in the bark.
I always want to see the back of any bow that I'm making because of the inherent cracks and/or rot so I don't want to leave bark on a serious bow. But I love the look of the polished bark such that Bryce posted.
FYI. I'm tillering my TD OS lever bow right now. One limb is flat on the back and the other is crowned. Its 1.5" wide for the first half of the limb and its bending even though its very heavy right now. I'm curious if it breaks, which limb will break. I'm anticipating that the crowned limb will lift the splinter even though its very clean. The flat backed limb is knotty, bumpy, and wavy. I should know tomorrow and I'll post the results.
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Well steve I don't have that bow anymore I made it for my nephew but the stats are 56" ntn 52@28"
He only pulls 22" but he'll grow into it:)
But I have another one I finished up the other day that I might get a finish on soon maybe I'll bring it over.
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So you say, "well steve..." as though I said something antagonistic toward OS, or the bark left on? Note that I said " I have very little experience", but only commented what little I knew because Dan asked.
I'm off Tuesday/Wed so please come over and show me your stuff and get that board I have for you!
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It can happen over a tiny knot if over sanded. I decrown the backs sometimes and leave more over the knots. Rawhide as well. Sinew looks good too.
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So you say, "well steve..." as though I said something antagonistic toward OS, or the bark left on? Note that I said " I have very little experience", but only commented what little I knew because Dan asked.
I'm off Tuesday/Wed so please come over and show me your stuff and get that board I have for you!
Oh no, I didn't take it like that at all. Was just saying I don't have that one for yah to look at anymore.
It's hard to relay emotion over text :)
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Gotcha. That bow looks alot like the plum on the cover of one of the TBB's. Gorgeous! Primitive!
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Thanks buddy ;D
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It can happen over a tiny knot if over sanded. I decrown the backs sometimes and leave more over the knots. Rawhide as well. Sinew looks good too.
re you referring to a tiny knot on the back of an Oceanspray Danlaw?
Thank you Steve for your input!
Hi Dan
I've been going over this splintering so I went back to your first post in this thread
"I found a near perfect Ocean Spray's stave this last summer. I rought it out and cut a relief in the belly to avoid checking. It worked. I waited for the moisture to drop bellow 10% before cutting the profile"
Way back(6 months ago ;D) when I started I made this bow http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,41218.0.html
When it finally died it was from chrysals, the back was fine. It was seasoned for at least a year. I had gathered it on a whim and forgot about it.
Your bow and the one I just broke were collected in the summer. Mine was in August. You waited til the MC was 10%. Did you check that with a meter? Then you cut the profile. Did you happen to check the MC on the fresh cut edge. I don't have a meter. I weigh my staves and when the weight stabilizes I think it's ready. The stave I'm waiting on now had pretty much stabilized. After I roughed it out it started losing weght again. Unfortunately this coincided with or cold snap/low RH week. You can probably tell where I'm heading here. I don't think we waited long enough no matter what our methods say. What do you think?
Don
Here is some good info Don C shared with me off line and thought it valuable to share with the community. Hope you don't mind Don!
After reading this and comments from others I believe my set came from moisture, regardless what my meter said. To counter this from happening again I think I will let a younger stave dry after roughing out the profile and floor tiller.
Reading the discussions about chrysalis, I'm thinking that may have been an issue. I never really examined the belly close enough during the tillering process to say for sure. Next time I will examine the whole bow throughout the process.
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I thought it looked like some grey brown near the center of the stave. in that last photo, maybe just the pith and it looks bigger/more widespread than it is.
Seeing as how it is lifted in the same spot as the opposite limb, maybe you were stressing those inner limbs in your design, thickness taper. If you are not willing to let the wood take the fall...then I blame you! ;D ;D
Carson -After further reading on this wood and others experience, I'm starting to think the wood may have had a fault. I still have a lot to learn however this could have been a factor for sure.
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I'm kind of mistrustful of moisture meters although I've never used one. It just seems to me that you're measuring the dryness of the surface not the center. Has anyone checked the MC of a stave after it seems to have stabilized and then roughed out a bow and then rechecked the MC on the freshly exposed wood? I'm sure ;) the manufacturers wouldn't sell us a pig in a poke. I'll have to check my genealogy I must have ancestors from Missouri :laugh:
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Reading the discussions about chrysalis, I'm thinking that may have been an issue. I never really examined the belly close enough during the tillering process to say for sure. Next time I will examine the whole bow throughout the process.
Dan
I've just had the one experience with chrysals but I found them by chance when I was rubbing my fingers up and down the bow during tillering. They were vey noticeable. I don't think you would have missed them. Maybe someone else will chime in? Mine stood out(or rather-in) like a sore thumb.