Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Del the cat on November 28, 2013, 02:07:16 pm
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Dunno if I should post in Warbow, or arrows? But I figured more people whould see it here.
Prob no 'right answer' ...but...
I'm shooting at Windsor (in view of the castle) on Sunday, it's roving marks and a flight shoot ;D.
Not done flight before...
I'm going to make up some flight arrows for my 100# Elm warbow, (prob' 95# at a comfortable draw length)
Any offers for a reasonable arrow weight? I'm thinking about 500 - 600 gn ?
Del
(I was going to shoot a boo backed Yew, but they don't allow boo backing for the flight shoot as it's too much of an advantage)
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As light as possible, just like any other flight bow shot. I shot a bamboo flight arrow of about 300 grains with a 120 lb longbow but bamboo does have that unique ability to fit many bow weights.
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Cheers Pat,
I'm barreling some 75 spine Maple shafts which shoot nicely from it.
Thanks for the info, it gives me some sort of reference.
We'll be shooting 4 arrows, so I might make 'em similar shaft but vary the point weight.
Maybe I can turn up some points with negative weight ::)
( I was going to go with boo shafts for the Boo backed Yew bow as it's 28" draw and I have some suitable 28" boo shafts, but they are no good for the warbow)
Del
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I don't think a 300 grain arrow in a 100# longbow would work very well for flight. I would go for 6 or 7 GPP arrows, although the real way to find out is with testing. If there are no restrictions on fletching size then I would make those as small as possible
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Cheer Marc, I've finished my first one and its 661gn :D
that sound in the right ball park, I just shot it out of one of my fast bows (BBY at 28" draw) not a representative test but it seemed to fly pretty clean over 10 yards. I'll try it from the warbow tomorrow.
Flights are about 1" x 1/4"
point of balance is about 3.6% forward of centre.... dunno how that sounds?
Del
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Drill out between nodes on the bamboo arrows and fill with helium, plug holes and proceed as normal!
Please take some photos if you can, Del! Good luck.
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Drill out between nodes on the bamboo arrows and fill with helium, plug holes and proceed as normal!
Please take some photos if you can, Del! Good luck.
Will do, if I see the Queen I'll say hi from you :laugh:
Or do you want pics of the arrow O:)
Del
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If you see Her Majesty, tell her I think from the recordings of her speeches during the Blitz that she's a pretty cool character!
Would love to see some photos of the flight shoot on the grounds, though. Might be interesting.
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If you see Her Majesty, tell her I think from the recordings of her speeches during the Blitz that she's a pretty cool character!
Would love to see some photos of the flight shoot on the grounds, though. Might be interesting.
Yeah, I was hoping to get a pic of a load of longbow archers with the castle in the background.
There's a road through Windsor great park which will be closed for the occasion, which I think is rather cool. :)
Del
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You know how we are about pics !
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From my very limited flight shooting with warbows (so take this with a grain of salt), it seemed that there was a "Goldilocks" zone that flew best from my bow. Lighter did not necessarily equate to farther distance. I've seen the same thing from others too, so I don't think it was just me.
Ask me what determines what that sweet spot is, and I'll likely shrug my shoulders :)
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660 gr looks perfect for me, warbows dont like to light arrows, too much energy lost.
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I've done some testing and at 10 yards the arrow is hitting the target at 45 degrees. I think it needs a weaker spine or bigger fletchings.
One of my 'standard' 5/16 shafts with 100gn field point and V small flights straightens up nicely and hits dead straight, mind it's only about 400gn
I think I'll end up with 4 different arrows to try.
Del
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Hey, Del... if you see Betty, tell her Adam says hi! :P
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Del, I wouldn't use any more than 400 grains, thats plenty of weight to drag a small fletching through the air. The lighter the arrow the faster it will come out of your bow period. The arrow has to be stiff enough to withstand being shot without flexing too much and has to have enough mass to overcome the drag. If it wrere me I would be shooting 300 grains with 1" fletchings about 1/4" tall. 30 or 40 grains point weight is more than enough to give you a forward center of ballance.
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Cheers Badger, due to time constraints I'm sort of hedging my bets now, I'll end up with 4 different arrows at variety of weights and spines.
Probably 300, 400 500, 600 gn
Does hitting my foam boss straight at 10 yards sound like a sensible test to you?
The 400gn seems faster than the 600, and needs less flight to stabilise it, skinnier too so my money is on that one for now.
I've found I do have some skinny boo shafts that are long enough, maybe I'll sort out the best of those for a 300gn arrow.
I feel pretty happy that the bow is ok with the low weight arrows, I don't think its particularly fast being a self wood warbow.
Hopefully I should learn something from the exercise (even if it's only how little I know about flight shooting :laugh:)
Mind I think I'll be struggling to get a clean fast loose at 32"... I'm probably better being content with 31" but I don't want to start cutting down the arrrows.
If I'd known I was going in for this I'd have had a go at making a flight longbow say 70#@ 28". Maybe I'll see when and where the next event is and have a go...although that may depend on how well I get on with this one!
Del
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At 32" draw 400 grains may be the best you will be able to do. I have shot 200 grains from an 80# bow but only drew it 26". Now I am struggling with 65#. Not positive but I think with a 400 grain arrow you might need a 2" fletch but keep it low.
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At 32" draw 400 grains may be the best you will be able to do. I have shot 200 grains from an 80# bow but only drew it 26". Now I am struggling with 65#. Not positive but I think with a 400 grain arrow you might need a 2" fletch but keep it low.
Cheers, I think I'm homing in on some reasonable arrows, but it's a real time burner making fancy arrows...
Thanks to everyone for the input, it's given me the reassurance I was needing.
Del
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I will certainly be interested in hearing which weight arrow travels farthest. Personally I think 400 grains too light for a longbow but then I've never shot a longbow in flight.
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I'll hopefully have a full report and pics.
Got to make 2 more arrows tomorrow.
I might go for two slightly different 400gns, the 600gn and a Boo 500gn, gota go shopping with Mrs Cat tommorrow too :( :-*
Del
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I have always heard that you can use light arrows but there is a point where light becomes too light and it can't go far. With a warbow I would say 7gpi+ with very narrow,barreled shafts. This would be more in your optimal range of weight for a bow that heavy. I would also do low cut feathers and a decently heavy, narrow tip to reduce all drag but maximize distance
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For reference, Many of the English Longbow flight records recorded at our annual US Nationals were with barreled flight arrows 3-5 ggp.
Alan
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Could you guys post some pics of these flight arrows?
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Heres a pic of the original on I did with it's un-altered couterpart. This one hits the target at 45 degrees from 10 yards so I've increased the fletching size and am going to re-test it.
When I've finished my 4, I'll post on my blog*.
Del
*It's easier to post on the blog as there is no image size limit, which means you can post a decent pic and zoom around it, it saves a lot of time cropping and reducing resolution to get under the 2k, it's also quicker than going via photobucket etc.
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Thanks, Del. So, the top one is a flight arrow obviously, and the bottom is a regular target arrow, yes?
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Thanks, Del. So, the top one is a flight arrow obviously, and the bottom is a regular target arrow, yes?
The bottom on is not full 'standard arrow' spec', I made it to look reasonable but to be ok for lighter weight bows.
It's a 3/8 Maple shaft 150 gn 'modkin' point (for 11/32) the flights are 5". I made 'em for filming on 'Tudor Monastery Farm' which is on BBC2, the episode with the archery is being shown as a Christmas Special... they also filmed me doing some bow making/tillering, but they are not using that footage, much to my irritation, as I spent ages preparing for it.
They fly nicely from the 100# Warbow.
I've just about got the 4th arrow done now, it will be anout 500gn, so I'll have 2x 400, a 500, and a 600 should give me a reasonable test.
Del
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Did they let you know why they've cut the footage?! That sounds daft. They stuck a good 5 minute clip in of a guy turning a wooden bowl on a lathe which was riveting... Why not show the procedures involved in making one of the most prolific weapons of the period?!
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That's TV for you, I'd rather have seen more about the wood turning than the endless repeated footage of 3 monks walking down the nave or cloisters.
Maybe they felt it didn't fit in with the farming... but then how does illuminating a manuscript either?
I'd asked for feedback and they said they were pleased with the days filming and I was a 'real find'. But the impression I got is that everything is always great, lovely, super, and then once you've gone they don't giveadamn if it ends up on the cutting room floor (all those bits of data and pixels must be a pig to sweep up)
I was a bit irritated that they won't release any footage even for private use >:(.
Still it was a good day out and hopefully there will be some good footage of the shooting in the Christmas special :laugh:
Ruth Goodman is great on camera, and she shot a little 35# Hazel primitive which I took. Shes a bit quiet off camera. The blokes were a real laugh up the pub the night before.
The way I look at it, maybe they are doing me a favour! Better than editing it to make me look like a pillock. I also think they maybe just didn't 'get it', and it wasn't interactive enough with Peter and Tom. There was no briefing on what they hoped to see, so I basically crammed 2 days of tillering into 2 hours (without my reading glasses) taking a bow from deliberately asymmetric at low brace, to an even tillered shootable bow of about 80# at 28" !
It was real knotty stave that I had earmarked as a character bow and unsuitable for a long bow really... but I made a longbow anyway! :o
They prob' just didn't know what they were seeing.
I prob shot myself in the foot a bit too by not being opinionated enough... I wouldn't spout stuff about the history that was just my opinion. I was happy to talk about the intricacies of working a stave and the suitability of English Yew!
I din't have time to properly finish or check over and fine tune the bow... Soooo in the afternoon, I pushed my luck and took it to about 30" and it exploded on camera! :laugh: I'd have thought footage like that was gold dust.
There are some good pics in the book, but it's another case of all rush and no checking... I'd have proof read it for them.
One picture is captioned "Peter about to loose an arrow... you certainly don't 'fire' a bow!" ;D... Then the text proceeds to use the term fire at every possible point :(
Del
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Pretty sure the bow breaking made you lose all credibility in their eyes.
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Del, A few years ago I did a show for the discovery channel where I had to build a giant bow to power a Da Vinci designed catapult. I swore I would never do another show for them. Another show I did I had to build 6 300# crossbows and finish them all in a week. The giant bow was about 22 ft long and shaped like a C. They take out all the good stuff and focus on the little squables around the shop.
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I'm amazed, considering how closely Chrissi Carnie is involved in the whole thing. Perhaps it was the bow breaking that did it, as Pat said. Who knows.
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Pretty sure the bow breaking made you lose all credibility in their eyes.
I had explained on camera that this stave wasn't really suitable, was an accident waiting to happen and could well end up in the corner of shame.
The morning was the bow making and they suddenly called time for lunch, so I just took the bow and drew it 28", put an arrow on it and slammed it into some bales of flax ;D... That would have been good TV.
The afternoon shooting bows was a sepatate thing, so the breakage was almost a foot note. All the other bows in use were made by me and were fine of course.
The risk assesmant I had to do had also mentioned bows breaking was a possibility. I don't think I lost any credibility at any point, more a case of they didn't think it was photogenic enough... or maybe not enough squabling ;)
Best bit of the day was getting two of the girls from the crew shooting the 35# Hazel when we'd finished :laugh:... absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they were both gorgeous O:)
Del
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Del, A few years ago I did a show for the discovery channel where I had to build a giant bow to power a Da Vinci designed catapult. I swore I would never do another show for them. Another show I did I had to build 6 300# crossbows and finish them all in a week. The giant bow was about 22 ft long and shaped like a C. They take out all the good stuff and focus on the little squables around the shop.
Yeah, and the stupid time constraints they put on these projects.
the daftest was a time limit on building a seige engine... D'uh... in a seige, the one thing you have is time, and more time...and more time... have they starved yet? No?... more time!
Del
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Here's a quick result... I'll post a fuller report and pics on my blog.
The event was longbows only... I shot further than anyone else, but didn't "win" as I pulled 'em all left out of the shoot lane (well I am new to this, and was stiving for a full draw).
302 yards ;D
One of the 2 lightest arrows (about 400gn went furthest) the one with the nicely fiared in horn reinforced nock. the heaviest (600 gn) was shortest (but prettiest :-* ::) )
Great days shooting ;D.
Sunday roast is calling me.
More tomorrow.
Del
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Del, how much fletch did you have on the 400 grain, how high and how long?
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I have yet to make an arrow from start to finish. I only hope to be able to engage in a conversation like this someday and have something intelligent to contribute. Cheers, Doob
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Del, how much fletch did you have on the 400 grain, how high and how long?
The arrow actually weighed 385.6gn 5/16 POC shaft.
You can see I've tried to blend in the leading edge of the flights and I've made a lovely tiny cute nock tapered out to small as possible.
Picture of flights and point attached, not the muck finish round the point is actually where I faired it in with epoxy as the join of point to shaft was rough.
If you look really close you can just make out Windsor castle in the back ground :)
Left to Right Roy, Heffalump, Windsor Castle, Del, Mick, Owen
Del
(I'm holding the 50# Yew I used for the roving marks... the Elm Warbow was waiting patiently in the car)
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This is no time to be eating Sunday dinner and leaving us all hanging!
300yards nice one 8)
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Oh Del, if only we could scoop up the lot of you and drop you at Twin Oaks for the Classic! What would be more fun than to have some real life Tommies in that crowd. I can only imagine the fun.
Well, if we could get past the language barriers!
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Congratulations on the great flight shooting results. It can be really easy lose direction and go off line when pointing up in the air at close to 45 degrees.
It would be great to shoot with such a large number of participants. I hope someday we will have more long distance events like that here in the US.
Alan