Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: echatham on November 17, 2013, 05:03:28 pm
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alright im reasonably confident in my tillering abilities, though i have yet to knock one out of the park, i would just like some other eyes on this as i go along to catch something i may not see. this is osage, 64" ntn with top limb (on the right) 1" longer. bottom limb is super clean and straight. limbs are 1.5" at the dips and for about 5" after that, then straight taper to half inch at the tips (will be 3/8" or so when finished) .... pretty much straight out of Dean Torges's book. floor tillering brought me to where im at, and this is the first time on any string so i can get a better look before i take it to low brace (1-2") i think its ready. my goal is 50# @29", and straight standing after shooting in. I guesstimate its about 65# right now. i plan to heat in about 3" of reflex once i reach a 5" brace or so. so what do you guys think? ready for low brace?
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131117_153334_180_zps80340c43.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131117_153334_180_zps80340c43.jpg.html)
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131117_153408_473_zpsa8f1d2ed.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131117_153408_473_zpsa8f1d2ed.jpg.html)
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Boy howdy, that kink just to the right of the handle is gonna lead your eyes astray!
Any chance you can lay a straight edge along the side of the limb and put down a pencil line from fadeout to tip? Then when you look down the limb and sorta unfocus your eyes, you can forget the dipsy-doodles of the limb and pay attention to where the line bends.
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Second look at things, I think by following the rows of holes in the pegboard I see that the right limb has more bend than the left.
Anyone else see this?
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yeah that kink is tricky.... awesome idea with the straight edge... gonna try that.
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it might be a little deceiving cause the bow did tip a hair to the right when pulled... making it look like the right tip traveled further than it actually did.
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I have a 2" by 36" aluminum yardstick that I use for making the straight lines on a limb. Helps to have extra hands on a real character stave, but sometimes careful use of clamps can help, too. Once that straight line is there, it will tell the tale with no exaggerations or falsehoods!
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If the right limb tipped to the right it is stronger as JW said. Jawge
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Jawge i get what youre saying, i have my tree set up so that it cradles the bow where i will hold it, and it pulls the string where i will pull it. because the pulling point is a little higher than the holding point, it tends to tip at first. the difference in limb lengths (or locations of static and dynamic fulcrums) is something im still wrapping my brain around, but i understand the concept.
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(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131117_163026_453_zps635ff5cb.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131117_163026_453_zps635ff5cb.jpg.html)
line drawn. will go give it a pull in a second.
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hard to see the line in the picture, but it looks pretty darn even in real life. awesome trick! mind if i share it with the guys on the bowyer's bench?
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131117_163340_117_zps1497eceb.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131117_163340_117_zps1497eceb.jpg.html)
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There ya go! Best tip I ever learned to get even bends in a limb!
Nice looking bit of character in that bow. She could be a real looker and a real shooter for you.
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I do the pencil trick like JW. Works great.
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Unless you are going to remove the dips and dives from that right side them I agree with JW get a strait line on each side of that limb !!
If you are going to heat this for any reason I would do it now and then draw the lines !
Guy
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Sorry if I am repeating folks
The storm blew thru and it took a couple of hours to get posted !
Guy
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so ya don't think i should take it any further before heating in the reflex?
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so ya don't think i should take it any further before heating in the reflex?
I think if you are going to heat in reflex now would be fine. Then sand out those pencil marks!!!
With the new reflex added, you would add new straight pencil marks.
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hmm... and if i couldn't fit a straight line on the limb due to the reflex?
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Only need the line thru the bending character part of the limb !
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yeah that makes sense... thanks!
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Got my eyes on this one for sure. Keep I coming ;D
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I learned something today,the day is not wasted ;)
Nifty trick...and so simple,good one!
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Puttin in a little reflex
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131118_154058_150_zps3b022860.jpg)
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Took the reflex nicely. This is the hardest part... Waiting the couple days to resume tillering. I already have a name in mind for this one: "Patience". Im forcing myself to have it. Every problem with every bow i have made is the result of rushing.
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131119_153731_012_zps21b8491f.jpg)
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That looks good.
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thanks Jeff. think its safe to check tiller tomorrow? get to low brace maybe?
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Every problem with every bow i have made is the result of rushing.
What really helps me with that is simply to work several bows at a time. I usually have about five in the pipeline. Like this, there is always something to do that suits my mood. And makes it easy to leave alone bows that are not ready or where I need to do some more thinking before proceeding.
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What really helps me with that is simply to work several bows at a time. I usually have about five in the pipeline. Like this, there is always something to do that suits my mood. And makes it easy to leave alone bows that are not ready or where I need to do some more thinking before proceeding.
well i kinda have that going on... got the HHB Molly that you can see up above my tillering tree.... but i stay pretty much angry at that one ::)
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Thats looking good,if you didn't heat treat,just heated enough to add the reflex you should be good to go in a day or so. Some only wait till it is cools and move on. :) I usually give it a day or at least over night if I do it in the evening. :)
Pappy
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How would you guys handle this? Drill it out? Get some super glue in there? Im gonna leave extra wood around it either way. Its right in the fade.
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131120_121640_619_zpse4394e40.jpg)
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131120_121716_192_zps7e763813.jpg)
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131120_121704_089_zpsc6152c4b.jpg)
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I don't have any experience with osage. But since I don't see a marking of the knot on the back of the bow, it must be a loose knot and new rings have grown on top of it. I'm inclined to remove the dark, rotten wood. It'll probably fall out half way through the process. You can leave the cavity (I think it's cool) or fill it with a glue/osage dust mixture. It appears to be in a non-bending section of the fade anyway.
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I dig out knots that go all the way through and leave them that way. but the ones that are only on the belly I dig out a fill with glue and saw dust. Just the I do it.
DBar
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Dig it out /leave a hole/ or fill with glue and dust or just leave it alone,won't matter where it is located. :)
Pappy
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I poked at it a little and it came out :) i dig it.
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finally got it braced. took a while because it was too stiff after putting in the reflex, and then my string kept stretching out on me. kept it braced at 1" for about 30 seconds, just long enough to snap pictures and get a look at it. should be able to get the string perfectly centered by thinning tips and handle... later. lost a hair over an inch of reflex (the bottom of the blue tape on the wall marks where the tips were right off the form) the unbraced pic is immediately after unstringing. if it looks like its going to have string follow once i get it to full brace, is there any harm in re-adding reflex in the outer two thirds?
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131121_082059_727_zps8e6a0e4b.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131121_082059_727_zps8e6a0e4b.jpg.html)
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131121_082041_830_zps7349a918.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131121_082041_830_zps7349a918.jpg.html)
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131121_082212_046_zpsa395c9ea.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131121_082212_046_zpsa395c9ea.jpg.html)
i think my floor tillering abilities are improving... limbs look pretty darn even to me first try.
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3.5" brace. stiff at inner thirds?
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131121_105510_977_zps4e96af8e.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131121_105510_977_zps4e96af8e.jpg.html)
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131121_105607_869_zps9dc93d75.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131121_105607_869_zps9dc93d75.jpg.html)
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Whats the straight edge tell you? The straight edge never lies. One of these days Im going to do a straight edge tillering video.
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straight edge says (i think) slightly stiffer. very slight and the bumps and wiggles still play tricks on me. the wood curving the opposite way of the line can make a straight line look curved... or vice versa i guess.
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Tip that straight edge as you run it along the limb, follow those twists. If that gap even starts to shrink a hair, mark the area and remove wood. This stave is pretty "clean" and each limb needs to bend evenly and the same.
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Whats the straight edge tell you? The straight edge never lies. One of these days Im going to do a straight edge tillering video.
That's a video I want to see ;)
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think we might be talking about two different things... i thought you were asking about the straight line drawn down the side of the limbs using the yardstick. are you talking about a tillering gizmo (or using a small straight edge in the same manner)?
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I use my scraper, but yes that's the edge I was referring to. Run it from your fades to 6" from the tips. That gap needs to be the same from end to end.
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gotcha. thats the method i use. was just trying this out to get to brace.
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131121_112849_568_zps9b4ce588.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131121_112849_568_zps9b4ce588.jpg.html)
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131121_112904_957_zpsed19a862.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131121_112904_957_zpsed19a862.jpg.html)
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131121_113035_001_zps0217acf9.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131121_113035_001_zps0217acf9.jpg.html)
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131121_113043_182_zps93385c53.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131121_113043_182_zps93385c53.jpg.html)
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If that's your method, then your all set. Forget about pencil marks and just watch your straight edge gap. When your gap is even end to end on each limb, your tillered. Slowly draw it out to your weight and watch for flat spots with your straight edge. Once you get to 20" or so your tiller probably wont change out to 27-28".
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looking good !
You should be able to do all the rest except that one dipdedo with your gizmo or a strait edge sighting devise !!!
Just check back on the strait line once and awhile to be sure it has the same amount of bend that you see with the rest of the limb !
Nice job so far now slow down some more ! :laugh: :laugh:
Guy
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Pearl you should do a tillering vid. After that bow Yew posted, I think I would like to know how you do things
Matt
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Buckeye guy no kidding on slowing down. Had all morning off and to myself so that was hard to do. Scraped a bit... Took a picture... Went upstairs had coffee... Shot a little... Go scrape... Take another picture... Repeat.
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Are you done yet !! >:D :laugh: :laugh:
Glad you have it under control !!
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nope...not yet.... couple more coats of tru-oil ;D :o
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just kidding by the way. did a little work on it today, mostly just got it as perfect as i can at the 3.5" brace using the tillering gizmo. tomorrow or this evening i might brace it up to 5 or 6 inches and start tillering for real. today i chased a ring on a pair of beautiful black locust billets for my next project, and helped a buddy rough out his first selfbow from a shagbark hickory stave i cut down a couple years ago. we made a mess.
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131122_124023_105_zpscb49c3b1.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131122_124023_105_zpscb49c3b1.jpg.html)
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4.5" brace. 31# @ 14". no pic at draw cause i only did it very quickly and didn't want to hold it there. just long enough to run the straight edge down each limb. just about spot on. couple scrapes in one spot on the top limb and a couple full length scrapes on the bottom and im in business. from this point, im going to determine exactly where the arrow pass will be (and therefore exactly where my bow and string hand will be), and adjust my tree accordingly. going to make a little leather or web strap "string hand" to go around the string to simulate my "3 under" grip, and use that, cause i wonder if it makes a difference pulling from a single point vs a three finger point... my thinking is it could... so why gamble. doesn't seem to have lost any more reflex.
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131122_144212_157_zpsb1b9db54.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131122_144212_157_zpsb1b9db54.jpg.html)
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131122_145234_004_zps713a9dcd.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131122_145234_004_zps713a9dcd.jpg.html)
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Perfect
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Thanks PD 8)
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Looking good!!!
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5.5" brace, 33@16. bottom limb still to stiff, scraping only the bottom a few scrapes at a time until it catches up with the top. bottom limb is also starting to take a set, top hasn't budged. anyone know why that might be? other than the top being an inch longer.
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131123_081922_842_zps25f4ccfe.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131123_081922_842_zps25f4ccfe.jpg.html)
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131123_082233_756_zpse0f667cd.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131123_082233_756_zpse0f667cd.jpg.html)
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131123_082349_020_zpsd50cb1bf.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131123_082349_020_zpsd50cb1bf.jpg.html)
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Top has a fuzz more reflex off the hanlde, equals a fuzz more set. I have buckthorn Im messing with just like it. If you are 33 @ 16 your darn close to a 55 @ 27-28 bow at the end. Id start course sanding all the marks away and tiller lightlywith sandpaper if need be. Pull it farther exercising it 8-10 pulls per inch as you go down. See how she looks at 45# and 20" or so. Maybe jump that brace up to 5 3/4" to.
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yeah i know its getting close... just don't wanna rush it. going for 50 @ 29, so i should still have some breathing room.
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Yup, you have space. But like any good party? Get there early man.
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good idea to tiller with fine grit sandpaper from here on out? ive done a pretty good job about minimizing tool marks so far, but i figure with sandpaper i could further minimize the step effect at the late to early wood transitions. as soon as i get the lower limb caught up im going to start working my way down to 50#, wherever that is.
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When you're working with staves you're general dealing with unequal working properties Eric. One limb can be stronger than the other. In my opinion, the stump end is always stronger. That's why I much prefer sister billets for bows. So with stave bows, I build them as they stand in the tree. Billets, butt ends are joined at the handle. How is your limbs oriented?
Is your top limb pulling out of alignment (out from the wall) due to that irregular hump right outside the handle?
Art
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Art unfortunately i don't know anything about what part of the tree this stave came from, or its orientation. got no osage here so i had to get this from a guy in ohio. my next project involves book matched black locust billets that will be joined at the stump end. i don't think the top limb is pulling away like you say, but i haven't thought to look out for that either. i will look for that next time i give her a tug.
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It's not hard to tell how a stave, billets or even boards grew in the tree Eric. Just study their growth rings. Larger growth ring end indicates stump end and it's smaller ringed end it's top. Very simply.........Art
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first one is the bottom limb... and it must have been the bottom of the tree.
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131123_103358_063_zps81eed4ef.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131123_103358_063_zps81eed4ef.jpg.html)
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131123_103329_964_zps136d2d4b.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131123_103329_964_zps136d2d4b.jpg.html)
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Looks like you're fine there Eric. I suspect that hump outside the handle is preventing even set........Art
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One more thing, at this point, I believe I'd shoot the bow with short draws to check for any upper limb twist. Shooting the bow upright, first with a hard grip, and then with a loose grip to give me a feel of any twisting. Something for you to consider............Art
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I'll do that art. here is where im at... and its break time. 5 3/4" brace, 49@ 23. bottom limb finally caught up. limbs are in sync. top limb is a hair stiff near the tip. tillering with 220 grit. just about an inch of reflex left. sorry for blurry drawn pictures, im pulling with one hand and fumbling with phone with the other.
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131123_133243_724_zpsd5aba587.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131123_133243_724_zpsd5aba587.jpg.html)
/IMG_20131123_103329_964_zps136d2d4b.jpg[/img][/URL]
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131123_133320_850_zpse68eede3.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131123_133320_850_zpse68eede3.jpg.html)
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131123_133502_305_zps897ca73f.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131123_133502_305_zps897ca73f.jpg.html)
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131123_133541_239_zps190ed5b7.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131123_133541_239_zps190ed5b7.jpg.html)
had the wrong picture up for a second... i fixed it.
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Looks like a brand new osage bow to me.
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went over it with a fine tooth comb... err... sunlight and 220 grit.... and got rid of all tool marks. got it down to 50@ 24 and still dead on. feelin good about this one. hope it keeps the straight profile... that was my whole goal for this thing.
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well.... :-\..... this is my first fret. can i call myself a bowyer yet or do i need to blow it up? had it at 50@ 25, and was looking it over before sanding some more and i noticed it. right in the cup of that humpty dumpty crap off the upper fade. i figure this is as good an opportunity as ever to try a torges patch... just for practice if nothing else.
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131123_200106_979_zps2cfab0ad.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131123_200106_979_zps2cfab0ad.jpg.html)
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It was looking so good...grrr. Did you see this thread? http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,43473.0.html It shows a dowel patch for a fret, which looks a lot easier than the Torges patch to me. Good luck!
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i did see that.... but i got my own idea....
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I would personally glue some extra wood right there. Just the tiniest bit
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Id let it dry down. Osage doesnt do that if the tiller is even close.
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dry down? i can't really understand why it happened. doesn't seem to be bending much there.
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(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/1ee67452-a77c-4860-8dff-9c70a483783f_zpsfc63e58e.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/1ee67452-a77c-4860-8dff-9c70a483783f_zpsfc63e58e.jpg.html)
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Its not dry enough IMO. Ive seen miserably tillered, too short, too narrow osage bows that never had a one. Sit it aside for a few weeks over top of a furnace register. Then temper it. You might get lucky and remove those ruptures. Dont glue a thin piece of wood over it.
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hmmm.... ok. i hit it with a few sweeps of 100 grit just to see if it was just on the surface and its not.... it does catch a razor blade... but not my finger nail. don't you think i should patch it anyway with a Torges patch just because that wood is already damaged? i can stick it in my drying box for a couple weeks no problem, but its already fractured so i have to deal with that right?
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i don't have a moisture meter, but the stave sat over a year as a pretty well worked down stave, then as a floor tiller ready, roughed out bow for two weeks at 100 degrees in the hotbox, i thought it should be dry, but guess im still learning.
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It may come out later, or it may not. Depends on how much it stiffens up after drying and a temper job. Those two things alone may require a fair amount of wood removal. Or, you can try a patch job now. Your call.
Sounds like it should be dry enough to me to. Did you work right after taking it out of your bow? Has it been kept in the box between work sessions? Ive never known osage to be hyper sensitive. Its either too green or its not.
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always waited for it to cool to room temperature before bending it, and once i started bending it it didn't go back in the hotbox. i just can't understand it, my other two osage bows were probably not as dry, and definitely weren't as well tillered as i felt this one was becoming. i think i will patch it... and while the glue is drying... might as well rough out another stave ;D
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I've been following this from the beginning. Great advise all the way through and the tiller looks really good. I thought it was finished. I'm with PD, Bodark just doesn't fret in my experience even when grossly out of tiller and this one is not. Something else at play. That dowel patch that Archer1 showed would be my thoughts.
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I must be doing something wrong also or you guys are sending me your junk wood ;D! I bet I've had to repair a dozen or so Osage bows with frets. But I do tend to max out my design for my short draw ;).
MC had nothing to do with your problem Eric. That whoop-de-doo was either from (around) a tree scar or knot. Wood around such areas are much harder/stronger that the surrounding wood. With the wood being that hard, and where it was placed, didn't want to bend as readily as the rest of the limb. So, I reckon if there's such a thing as a "good fret", you got one. That area needed to relieve a little pressure, that's all. Any type of patch job will work just fine..........Art
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etch, I would sand it down pass the fret. Then sand/scrape the rest of that limb and the other limb to match the taper as well as you can visually and by feel. The fret area CAN NOT be the thinnest section of the bow limbs. You're looking for 50# at 29", so you have 4 more inches to go. You might get lucky and still hit that draw weight. But, I think there's a good possibility at getting at least 40# from.
Once you have the fret sanded and the rest of the limbs scraped some, weigh the bow, put it in the dry box with humidity meter. Using a conversion table of ambient humidity to wood moister content, I would try to achieve between 8.5 and 9.5 consistently. Weigh the bow every day. When the bow stops loosing weight for 2 or 3 days, it should be good to work.
Now, since you have a weak spot where you sanded the fret out, go slowly with tillering. I would not pull it to 25" and I would not pull it to 50#, probably just 40#. Start over from brace to make sure the rest of that limb and the other limb is "spot on" since you've removed some wood without actually tillering the limbs. If you see ANY problems, stop and fix those areas. Slowly work back up to 25".
Once you get to 25" ( might go to 26" just to get over the previous hurled), then I would consider working it slowly to 50#. Again watch for problems and fix them before continuing any further.
There are others with more experience that might have better ideas. This is just what I would do.
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haha i got enough 40# bows. im goin all or nothing baby! gonna put in a patch about an inch and a half long, and leave it a little proud. its going in the hotbox at 80 degrees for the glue to cure, cause it stays about 60 in my basement and unibond needs at least 70. will leave it in there a few days to suck out any moisture. will keep you all posted. thanks for all the advice so far.
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Let me ask you this. Is that area where the fret is thinner than the surrounding area? Did you do any heat tempering/setting back in that area?
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artcher, no and yes. not thinner, but i did apply considerable heat to that spot when adding reflex... not toasted... but hot.
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Matt, chime in buddy... i see ya creepin over there lol!
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Hey Eric, you had her looking pretty good there I thought. I'm not sure which stave you had there, but it should have been plenty dry, especially if you had it in your hotbox. I can't remember, did we test those with the moisture meter?
As far as your fret. I've only had Osage do that when I had heated the wood to add in reflex. I suspect I got the wood too dry. It also happened near a little knot. Remember the bow I was shooting when you were here? Thats the one. I was fortunate enough that I was able to work out of the fret. The reflex I was able to put in it kept it at or near my desired weight after retillering.
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As I stated earlier, wood in that area is probably more compression resistant then the rest of the limb. Would also be tension resistant even with heat. That may not be a fret but rather a crack from heating/setting back. Frets are more razor-cut looking.
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This is one of the ones that you already had worked down to a ring leaning on the wall of your big shop. The one that was real clean.
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131124_094700_333_zps90215d7d.jpg)
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131124_094721_855_zps7dec9228.jpg)
Hows that? Deep enough?
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Looks more than deep enough to me Eric. Did you check and see just how deep that "crack" went as you were removing wood?
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Here's the humidity meter I use in my hotbox. It has a magnet on the back, so I screwed in a little strip of medal in my hotbox for something to for the magnet to stick to.
http://www.walmart.com/ip/16888914?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=3
Then I use the chart on this link to check the moisture content of the wood by comparing the relative humidity and temp. I printed out this chart, highlight every box from 7.1 to 10.3. So I have quick reference in my workshop.
http://www.woodworkerssource.com/moisture.php
I tend to believe moisture or lack there of is not the problem. At this point, it certainly would not hurt to eliminate that issue from the equation.
I, most certainly, am not an expert on whoop-dee-doos. I've only worked 2 or 3. They where from 2/3 out to the tips. I think a whoop-dee-doo at the fades would be the most challenging, because that's where most of the pressure is locate. And my theory, the kink actually changes the angle of force a bit causing the wood to actually want to bend there more. I'll leave it to the whoop-dee-doo experts to advice you how to handle it.
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Could that crack have been caused by tension when heating in reflex?
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Yes,very likely and if so probably won't hunt anything, Perfect tiller on a woop t do stave is sometime not possible,you sometimes have to leave them places stiffer and not bending,I know everyone want the prefect tiller and look like a glass bow but that sometimes don't work when you are working with wood and especially wood with some character. :)
Pappy
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I agree with Pappy. That crack (not fret) was more than likely to result of heating and bending in some set-back. Hey, it's all a learning experience. Bet you feel smarter already ;D..........Art
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im thinking thats the case. its the only thing that makes sense. i will feel better with the patch in place anyway i think.
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Nothing worse than spending all that time on a bow and the chrysal of death shows up, sinking feeling in you guts.
As said above though that does not look like a chrysal to me. Certainly not like any i have seen and i have had my fare share. That looks like the grain was lifted at some point. Rather that two planes failing where they find the weakest point and lifting up a compression chrysal, kind of like tectonic plates meeting and shoving up mountains. Its becoming more apparent as the wood takes more strain.
I would be tempted to scrape it with a sharp blade from handle to tip just over the area and see if it moves back towards the handle.
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Let's see a post-repair photo! I hope it all hold together for you.
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Dont worry i will. You guys will see it finished or firewood.... But i anticipate finished. Haven't glued in the patch yet. Got busy all of the sudden. Hopin to get it glued tonight.
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glue is curing. still don't have a toothing iron so i used a knife to score both glue surfaces. will get it cleaned up tomorrow.
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131125_141253_893_zpsfe1f9dd4.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131125_141253_893_zpsfe1f9dd4.jpg.html)
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131125_141302_346_zps06974da1.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131125_141302_346_zps06974da1.jpg.html)
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131125_144405_610_zps57a91070.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131125_144405_610_zps57a91070.jpg.html)
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Yeah baby, that's what I'm talkin about.
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This one is looking.....veeeerrry interesting. :)
DBar
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man that is some tedious work getting the edges smoothed over without digging into adjacent wood. got it as close as i could with a fine tooth file and then about 10 full limb sweeps with 100 grit on each limb and then smoothed both limbs down with 150 and then 220 grit. can't feel the edges but you can feel a slight hump, which is what i was going for. by the way it looks like there is a divot below the patch in the first picture, but its not... just some funky coloration of the wood there that makes it look that way. haven't braced it yet.... got some fatherly duties to attend to.
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131126_145018_569_zpsa5d955d1.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131126_145018_569_zpsa5d955d1.jpg.html)
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131126_145036_921_zpsb57b6308.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131126_145036_921_zpsb57b6308.jpg.html)
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131126_145025_552_zpsf45ea1df.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131126_145025_552_zpsf45ea1df.jpg.html)
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Is it possible that whatever caused that discoloration also contributed to the crack?
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its possible i guess but i don't think so. the darker wood was around the knot, and is very hard, but theres only a sliver of it on the limb. im convinced that crack was 100% due to me trying a little to hard to make that humpty less dumpty. ???
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The patch looks good, Eric. You did a good job blending it in. When you start bending the bow again, start from the beginning, as if beginning to tiller a new bow. I would actually start over with a long string just to be safe, and exercise the limbs 40 times or so after each correction and/or at each additional inch of draw. That way the patch will learn to compress a little at a time and you can gauge the bend in that area as you creep down the tree once again. Wishing you the best.
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Thats the plan. Thanks!
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Nice fix Eric! That looks nice.
No way I would go back to a long string and pull the amount of times Jeff suggested. Long string will exercises the inner limb more so then evenly distributing the stresses along the rest of the limb. I don't think you need that in that particular area. Any weight reduction from this point on should be out in front of both fades leaving these areas a little stiff (that discolored wood around that knot area is hard, dense and brittle wood). You're probably not going to have any more problems one way or the other but I thought I's throw my two cent in there for you.........Art
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Good looking fix Eric. I tend to agree with Art. I would monitor that area close just to see what is going on, if anything. You basically have a plywood effect there with the different grain orientations so that may change things a bit depending on how much work was actually being done there. And be patient. Also, big storm headed your way. Better go stock up on shop fuel.
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thanks guys. yeah i think if anything it will probably be a little stiff there. i will give it a pull on the long string before bracing, and then start over tillering from there, one inch at a time. i really don't expect much complication... but i will be looking out for it anyway.
Matt i think we are just getting rain out here, guess its sposed to get windy though.
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Patch looks good, Nice job,hope it holds and feel pretty sure it will .Good luck and keep us posted. :)
Pappy
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Nicely done, I gotta see how this works out.
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Seriously? >:( got off early today, real early... and got to work on this thing. a few pulls on the long string.... all good, braced... all good... back down to 50@ 25, and then i seen this. i don't get it.... does this stave just not want to be a bow or what? until a couple days ago i had the back sealed with glue, then as i started getting close to the finish line i scraped all that off and cleaned up the back just to make sure there were no tool marks. it was only at 80 degrees in the hot box for glueing the patch. im almost positive this was not there yesterday. any advice on how to handle this? super glue? silk or linen back?
its mostly on the back of the handle, but does extend a couple inches past the dips.
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131127_105112_955_zps932f6724.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131127_105112_955_zps932f6724.jpg.html)
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That looks like a drying check rather than anything from stress. You should be totally fine. But you may want to check the mc, that may be the culprit for the fret on the belly too. Just a thought.
Matt
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if i rub ca glue into the check, and then coat the back with it, it should be good right? then back to the drying box i guess. could it have regained enough moisture from humidity to cause this? it hasn't even been humid until today though.
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yeah Matt i know its a check and not from stress, and unfortunately i got no moisture meter... maybe that should be on my christmas wish list... hmmm... anyway, im gonna give it some dry time cause i don't think that would happen if it were completely dry.
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Fill it with thin glue and move along.
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You might want to put another coat of glue on it just to be safe never know if mor will come join there friend ;)
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coated the whole back with gorrilla glue impact tough (blue cap) ca glue, that should be sufficient as a sealer right? i always just used wood glue or shellac, but ... since i was fillin cracks....
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Super glue works good for a sealer............but, you need thin runny stuff for crack filling. First thing I do is finish the back/sides before I ever string a bow. That leaves only the belly to concentrate on while I tiller out to weight. Next time, try finishing the back/sides, then seal with painter's masking tape if no finish is applied. Glue is unnecessary and requires removing some backing material along with the glue. Not so with the tape.......Art
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never knew tape would do the job. thanks for the tip.
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Eric, I either use the tape or a coat of Tru-oil, depending on how wet/dry the wood is. If dry, I'll round all edges, finish the back to 220 grit sandpaper, and let the Tru-oil be my first coat of finish. Then I'll move on to the belly for weight reduction. So the first thing you need to do right now is round off those edges before you pull your bow any further...........Art
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the edges that you see in the picture are all in the non bending handle area. the limbs are round.
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id be shootin her in if it weren't raining... pics when she's all dressed up. thanks for helping me along! ;)
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Well i had a bump in the road... Got drunk and was fooling with it (never good) and stupidly flexed it backwards a little bit. Glue joint separated a hair at the edges of the patch. So i ground out the patch and glued in a new one. Its fine now. Got probably two hundred shots through it and just waiting to go over it in sunlight with fine paper before finishing.
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Now i have a question. Its got about an inch of string follow now... So a total of 4" of set. Seems excessive to me. What could i have done differently here to have less set? Ya think it wasnt dry enough? I read about bows only taking an inch or less set.... And i just dont know why i cant pull that off.
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That's a lot. How long is the bow and how far are you drawing it?
For the record: I still think that was a fret and not a tension crack. Tension cracks are often perpendicular to the sides of the limb while frets are squiggles that can go in several directions. That fret and 4" of set feeds my "too wet" conspiracy.
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I think you are probably right. Its 64" ntn and i draw 29". I think i probably could have made the non bendy handle section shorter.
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That's a fine length for 29" providing your in the 1 3/8" width category.
Ive made my fair share of tension tears and frets, so that's where my thoughts are derived from. Im not arguing with Artsy or anybody else that thinks its a tear, just giving you my opinion.
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You got me scratching my head on this one bud. Pearl makes good sense in thinking it's a moisture problem and that concerned me a bit so I just got out of the woods and checked the mc on the sister staves to that one as well as every other stave that was where your stave was. everything out there was reading 10-12 percent which is where they usually end up normalizing at around here. If you had that stave in a hot box for a while I don't see where moisture would cause that much set. The moisture should have come down to around 8 percent which would mean something else is in play here. How humid was it while you were tillering?
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I don't know man, every bow i have made has taken the same amount of set, which has kind of fooled me into believing that more starting reflex is the answer, or im doing something wrong in my tillering. i do all my work in the basement, which is pretty dry as far as basements go... no musty smell or water problems. im gonna rough out another stave in the next couple of days and let it cook for a month or two, and if that one does it then i just can't believe that moisture is the problem. how critical of humidity are you guys when you are tillering? do you have a "more humid than this and i don't tiller" point? never gave it much thought honestly.
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i really want to go to one of these bowyer gatherings you guys talk about, or at least pay one of you pros a visit sometime, get some hands on learning. Mr. Fout is really the only other bowyer i ever met except here on the interwebs. Connecticut is a selfbow desert.... so it seems.
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it is an improvement for me though, despite the set. id say except for the R/D BBI i made, this one is the fastest, which i attribute to my skinniest tips to date, and the least string follow in a selfbow. Matt, just judging against the bows we shot through the chrono that day, id say it probably gets 150 or better with 550 gr arrows.... lots of room for improvement though, and of course... im not happy yet haha :laugh:
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131203_193250_190_zpsdcf19a65.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131203_193250_190_zpsdcf19a65.jpg.html)
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131203_193138_021_zpsd54da6e1.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131203_193138_021_zpsd54da6e1.jpg.html)
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131203_192957_645_zps09b52f4d.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131203_192957_645_zps09b52f4d.jpg.html)
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131203_193018_768_zpsae86ac0c.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131203_193018_768_zpsae86ac0c.jpg.html)
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Well Eric, 150 won't set records but it'll kill a deer. I absolutely won't tiller a bow outside or in my shop if it's humid. I had a few take on more set that I had tillered while it was humid. I don't have a set humidity number I go by but if I walk outside and just start sweating or if it's raining I go to the basement where I run a dehumidifier. A problem I had with tillering when I got started was I tended to make the last third of the bow bend too much too early on and left the lower end too stiff to make my weight. This resulted in more set I think. I'm not sure if that's what is going on with yours but in the unstrung pic it looks like about halfway up the limb is where things really changed.
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I don't know man, every bow i have made has taken the same amount of set, which has kind of fooled me into believing that more starting reflex is the answer, or im doing something wrong in my tillering. i do all my work in the basement, which is pretty dry as far as basements go... no musty smell or water problems. im gonna rough out another stave in the next couple of days and let it cook for a month or two, and if that one does it then i just can't believe that moisture is the problem. how critical of humidity are you guys when you are tillering? do you have a "more humid than this and i don't tiller" point? never gave it much thought honestly.
Just out of curiosity, do you have a RH meter in your basement? When you said "which is pretty dry as far as basements go" it just made me wonder.
Don
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I dont.... But you can bet im getting one now. Think ill tiller the next one in the livingroom next to the fire place. :laugh:
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And tune the TV into "Life in the Kalahari desert"
And drink dry martinis
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Drinkin and bows dont mix for me i think.... And ill jist leave the tv off. Wouldnt have one but for the wife and kids. :laugh:
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I tiller all my bows outside under a shed,I do mine in stages and yes if it is humid or raining I will keep them in a hot box, or heater/ac duct in between sessions. I floor tiller then let rest,then to first brace,rest then on to 10 or 12 and rest and so on utill I am finished. I stay away from the last 6 or 8 inches of the bow and the fads out a few inches until I start getting close,say 20 inches or so.If you get the fads bending early is is very easy to get set there and it will really show up bad at the tips,a little set in the fads will show worse than set most anywhere else. Remember there is a difference in set and string follow. ;) :) so adding more reflex isn't always the answer. :) Also my long string tillering is done with a very tight long string,I think at least for me it gives me a much better view of what is going on in the bend. :) I also try and get it to short brace as soon as possiable. :)
Pappy