Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: blackhawk on November 06, 2013, 09:04:55 am
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I've always wanted to make a really long osage bow to disprove the myths that it will be a handshock and jarring slow dog of a bow...I found a prefect candidate of a stave last night(although its only a year old),and have a perfect design in mind...ill make it 76" ntn,and a standard 50@28"and when im done its gonna be a glorious shooter 8)
Anyone care to disagree it cant be done? What say you?
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You designing it to shoot light or heavy arrows? >:D
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Piece of cake !
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I can do either Art ;) >:D
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Yep Guy...your right..easy peasy..its all about design n tiller ;)
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Chris, about 12 years ago I built a 72" 50# elb style bow. About 1" wide. It was a great shooter but had a horrible painful sharp handshock, so bad that I would drop the bow after the shot and grab my hand in pain. I had to shoot like 800 grain arrows to tame it down. It wasn't high in mass either at around 16.5 oz. Several years later I decided to make another one but tiller it slightly different, a little more elyptical and it smoothed right out.
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Exactly Steve....tiller is important...needs to be ellipictal...mine won't be a elb and will have a stiff handle,and of course longer than normal giving me the same length working limbs as a "normal" length bow for those specs....and of course my signature tips(narrower than yours) will keep my mass low out in the ends....I don't just think I can do it..I KNOW I CAN!!! :-X ;)
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If it's only a year old how much longer are you going to let it grow? I would prefer if you found a fully grown stave rather than just a potential candidate.
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Show us what you are starting with !
So we can see what options you have .
No whip tiller allowed !
You designing it to shoot light or heavy arrows? >:D
Send him the arrows you want him to use and make a challenge out of this :laugh:
Hope you have some light arrows on hand !
Maybe some of them old cedar shafts that are 180 grains but 5o lbs spine !
Have fun cause I am !
Guy
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Let's shoot (pun intended) for light Chris. >:D
You know you'll have to send it to a few of us for verification don't you? ;D
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Lol pat :laugh:
Guy n Art...ilk take it to the Tennessee classic and you can shoot it all you want...be there or be square 8)
I'll snap some pics after I get home today n put em up for him yins guys
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Tim Bakers famous mojam bow was a 76" pecan bow, I have shot the twin to it many times and it shoots as smooth as silk. No reason you could not do it with osage.
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Hell, yah... no problem. I've made narrow backed ipe bows of that dimension with no isues, and ipe is heavier than osage.
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You going to have to keep the mass off the outer limbs.
I got a 6' Osage bow at home. It is made much as you discribed the one you plan to make. I can bring it to the Classic and you can help me work the hand shock out of it. ;)
David
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Steve...don't know if ya saw this one..its yew and is as you say Tims were..smooooth as silk ;) all I need to do is scale the width down and a hair more elliptical in tiller and it should be no different
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=36860.0
Alright ridge...
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ya mean something like this??
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I made one a few years ago out of osage.Only 66" long though.One inch wide.Eliptical tillered it.Sweet shooter.Lots of times a long sliver of osage will break free clean from the edge of a stave from a splitting stress crack or something.That's where mine came from.
Go for it Chris !!!!
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full draw 27.5"
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Yep 4dog.That's the way mine looks.Snakes and all.
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I got me an Artsy fartsy bow that says it will work just dang dandy! Mine is, I believe 69" ntn and about 55-57 @ 27. As you mentioned, a 13-14" riser will be key, maybe longer. Youve seen the bow Im talking about. She is a sweet shooter.
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..........and use B-50 for the string! ;D
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the one in the pic is 72" long 55# stiff handle,,pleasant little thump no real shock.
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Close 4 dog...but the last 16"~ will be narrower..and the tiller will be slightly more ellipictal than that,and the riser will be thicker and a lil longer...
Pearly you let me shoot that bow...it has a small subtle thump in the hand..nothing to worry about for most guys..but I wanna feel nothing...
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..........and use B-50 for the string! ;D
Sure OK...only as padding thru the endless loops ;)
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well....i tried.... >:( ......lol
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Hows the performance 4dog? Is it close to average glass bow speeds? That will be another requirement of mine to achieve...
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I put a cane wrap handle on mine,1/4" wide strip.I call it a D section,elliptical tillered type bow.
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That bow Pearly has was built 2 1/2-3 months off of the stump Chris. That subtle thumb you felt in the hand is why Peary has it now. >:D ;D
There's a very good reason why Osage isn't well suited for very long bows. And that's it's elasticity. Change that with a good heat tempering job then you're back on par with hickory or whatever. A good linen or FF string is imperative.........Art
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I don't even think this will be a challenge for you, my friend! With your knowledge of design and performance , it will be more of a inspirational tutorial for breaking down the barriers of wives tales and prejudice. looking forward to seeing the results.
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I am sure it will be great. This is where experience and time in the saddle mean a lot. I once made a longer osage bow because the wood was not perfect and thought I would spread the load out over more wood and it would be ok. Well it shot and held together but I actually ended up with a pretty severe case of tendonitis from that bow. I gained some knowledge and perspective, reworked it, and ended up with my favorite bow. Will be looking forward to seeing what you do.
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A longer handle ? >:(
I thought you were gona show us a how little of Osage it really takes to make a bow !
Most of my bows have been 68" with a 8 or 9 inch handle so it sounds like just another bow but with a target riser to me ::)
Oh well I am sure you will do the wood justice anyway !
Have fun !!
Guy
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i have thought about soing that target riser to get super long bows but you can do the same with i highly elipitical tiller.
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You're going to do an osage like you did that yew holmie? That is going to be your new favorite target bow. The extra mass weight of the riser is going to make it sit rock solid in the hand. If you don't end up drilling bulls eyes with it, I'll be shocked. Of course, if you feel like cutting a shelf into it for a lefty...
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That is the plan..except the lefty part ;)
I chased a ring,laid it out,cut it out,and reduced the thickness bending several inches on the floor...snapped some pics of the process,and I'll post em in a hour or two...
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Looking forward to seeing it. Have you got a place you can shoot it for distance?
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first I need to get it shooting steve ;) ...but once the corns cut yeah I got a field to flight shoot in ;)
heres the stave 78.5" long with the bark on
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x436/blackhawk28/Mobile%20Uploads/100_1371.jpg) (http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/blackhawk28/media/Mobile%20Uploads/100_1371.jpg.html)
heres the side view before a ring was chased
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x436/blackhawk28/Mobile%20Uploads/100_1372.jpg) (http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/blackhawk28/media/Mobile%20Uploads/100_1372.jpg.html)
funny thing here ive never seen..it has one ring of sapwood before being heartwood...weird...most of the time its 3+
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x436/blackhawk28/Mobile%20Uploads/100_1373.jpg) (http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/blackhawk28/media/Mobile%20Uploads/100_1373.jpg.html)
rings chased from the side view
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x436/blackhawk28/Mobile%20Uploads/100_1376.jpg) (http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/blackhawk28/media/Mobile%20Uploads/100_1376.jpg.html)
a look at it down longways....its a pretty dang clean stave
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x436/blackhawk28/Mobile%20Uploads/100_1377.jpg) (http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/blackhawk28/media/Mobile%20Uploads/100_1377.jpg.html)
layout lines shown on one half
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x436/blackhawk28/Mobile%20Uploads/100_1379.jpg) (http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/blackhawk28/media/Mobile%20Uploads/100_1379.jpg.html)
after I cut it out it gained a half inch more of reflex for a total of 2.5" right now...good ole tension wood 8) ...it still needs to lose the remaining several percentage points yet,so it might pucker up a tad more..who knows? and here it is ready for the hot box
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x436/blackhawk28/Mobile%20Uploads/100_1382.jpg) (http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/blackhawk28/media/Mobile%20Uploads/100_1382.jpg.html)
I laid it out for 1 1/8" width at the fades,and as always cleaning up to just outside the lines left me with 1 1/4" ...ill narrow it more for when I tiller and tweak my mass weight on it...right now it weighs a whopping 37 ounces :o ::) ..BUT ...a lot of that will fall off after a combination of moisture loss,tillering,narrowing the working limbs more,and reducing the width n thikness at the levers,and further reduction of that huge bulking handle...lol...I think half that weight feels like its in that handle...its two inches deep right now :o
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Chris,
Before you put it in the hot box, will you seal the complete stave?
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Can't wait to see this one when it's done. I really want to see what you do with the grip/riser. Can you do a center cut shelf on a self bow?
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Bill..I always coat the back with shellac after chasing a ring no matter how old the stave is....its cheap insurance n takes only a minute to do....n I start at a low temp for the hot box for the first several days,then start to increase it....
Atlatlista I'll cut in a shelf on this one if she makes it..but it won't be all the way to center
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its pretty fast but i havent paired it up with proper arrows yet,im shooting heavy bamboo hunting arrows in it and some a little lighter from another bow,need to run a test set of arrows through it, pair it up and shoot the dog meat outta it..no chrono handy either..someday..lol
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Watching and waiting patiently. :)
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As has already been said - elliptical tiller, how elliptical depends on the width profile.
I've made 80 inch longbows out of boo/ipe with no problems - you will pull this off in style i'm sure. ;D
In a way I prefer longer bows anyway.
Can you think of any other myths to dispell?
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Nice project !
How long of handle section did you lay out for ?
Man you cut out the best part of that layout pic !
Would love to see the smile on that bare foot little blonde :) !
Take care and tell the family hi !
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Sure mike...I gotta another myth to dispell...making a same dimension sinew wood bow as a Turkish flight hornbow ;) :laugh: ...and yeah..I hate to say it and admit it,but I like longer bows to..for shooting that is ;)
Guy its a 12" handle section,but when done ~ 14"+ of the center of the bow will be stiff after tillering...and the peanuts birthday is today ;) and I'll say hi for ya ;)
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Really nice piece of osage there BH. cant wait to see this monster in action!
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Sure mike...I gotta another myth to dispell...making a same dimension sinew wood bow as a Turkish flight hornbow ;) :laugh: ...and yeah..I hate to say it and admit it,but I like longer bows to..for shooting that is ;)
Shall we have a go at that one together.
You do one and i'll have a try too.
I've got a short yew stave that I don't mind destroying! I'm not putting a finish on it though so I can re-use the sinew after ;) ;)
Rules are 60#@28 and 47 ntn Turkish warbow style. I'll send you some dimensions for widths/thicknesses.
Those are very conservative figures for a 'proper' hornbow.
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http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr283/mikekeswick/P1010410.jpg
http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr283/mikekeswick/turkish21.jpg
Only drawn 23 or so here because it was the only photo I could find at the moment ;)
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Can I play in that contest too? Why didn't I get an invite? :o
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I think to be fair with a contest like this the 48" wood bow would need to be able to draw out to about 30" and match approx speed of the horn bow. We did a contest a few years ago where Tim Baker challeneged a horn bow to a contest against one of his 2 hour red oak board bows. They both drew 52# at 28" I believe and the red oak bow just barely edged out the horn bow by 1 ft per second in the test. I think with light flight arrows the Horn bow would have scored much higher as it was a flight bow. The test was with 10 grains arrow weight per pound draw weight and the horn bow scored 170 while the baker red oak bow scored 171fps. I htink the horn bow is about 44" long. Bakers bow was baout 66" long.
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Mike a couple of years ago I tried a big recurved sinewed bow with 10" starting reflex,and it was a few inches longer than an average Turkish horn bow....that thing was a sxreamer for about 3 dozen shots before giving up the ghost...have at it...I know what's gonna happen..and so do you ;) ..they put horn on the belly of those bows for a reason ;)
Your more than welcome to have a go to pat...
Steve...for those very reasons is one of the big reasons why I still haven't made a horn bow...although we all love the various shapes n profiles of a horn bow...and I'm sure I'll make some for that very reason alone....but when I can spend 4-6 hours into a selfbow that shoots as fast or faster than a horn bow that takes 10 times the work,and won't be as finicky,and easier to shoot accurately it makes it real hard to get started on one
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I think to be really fair the middle ground would be a Crimean Tatar style bow in an actual warbow like weight. Draw it however far you want There are no rules about drawlength in battle. See how they do then.
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;D ;D ;D
I'm only a jokin' and a jestin' guys.
Pat - Crimean Tatar bows were drawn a fair bit further than 28' . In war you would want the most out of your weapon no matter what it was. Bows (all bows) have an optimum draw length and this is what they would have been used at. I also suggested a low weight to give the wood bow a chance.
Badger - I'll try and get some fps readings for my new hornbow and maybe start another thread.
Blackhawk - Sorry to hijack and i'm looking forward to seeing your osage bow finished. :)
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That's why I said make it heavier and the draw whatever you want. If my bow draws 32 inches, why should it be handicapped by a 28 inch draw? If the consensus is that composite bows aren't more efficient until they can pay for their relative increased outer limb mass per draw weight, why limit things to 60 pounds?
Sorry about he hijack BH but you started it. ;D
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I don't think the short wood bows could compete if they had to draw out like 32". I just took an osage recurve of mine that I didn't like much, 52" long. I was going to use it for flight but wasn't satified with the speed. Anyway I had it marked at 50@@23". I just drew it out to about 72#@31". Lost all of its reflex!! WTF?? LOL.
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So do the hornbows Steve.... Part of the secret is a sinew backing. You can make the wood mushy and as long as you draw it far enough to strain the sinew it will save the day.
I built a sister bow to the bow on the other thread and it was 60 inches long and heavily reflexed. For whatever reason it chrysaled badly just flexing it to the straight position. I figured what the heck and balanced the tiller and shot it anyway. It was definitely what you would call mushy and yet if I drew it to 32-33 inches it would far outshoot any other bow.
I have little doubt that with even a modestly better compression wood on the belly that design would fare well against any other.
For the record the Crimean Tatar bow in TTBB is 62 inches long. Not too many composite warbows are actually as short as we are led to believe. Nor do they always have ridiculous levels of reflex when actually in use.
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Got two coats of oil on this one 8) ...came in 6 pounds light :-\ ...mass weight ended up being 26.8 ounces and right on target..it has a little bit of reflex >:D....it shoots great for me,and prob will be a favorite target shooter ;) :D .....I could shoot this one alllllllll day,and never get fatigued or loose me teef ;D
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Very Cool Thread Indeed...
Looking forward to seeing how she comes out... :)
-gus
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bring it to the classic.i want to get a look at it.can't wait to hold it.see you soon brother.