Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: NeolithicMan on September 22, 2013, 10:37:14 am
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Does anybody else have this problem: I will rough out the thickness on a stave after trimmed to just outside the dimensions on the bows back (i always draw them on there) and start floor tillering. my issue is that i will have the limbs bending beautifully with my eye by the handle section on both limbs with what I believe to be the same amount of force being applied to the limbs as I check them and yet, when I set up on my tillering tree... one limb may be hinged, one barely bends as the other is like a half circle, both limbs look grossly out of shape and or just twist and bend all sorts of weird ways. so i guess my question is, how can I floor tiller a little more effeciently and is there something I might be doing the makes my aproach less desirable? I have the same issues with different wood and different styles of bows I have worked on.
Thanks for your time guys, always love getting advice from people who know what there talking about.
John
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Whenever possible I have a buddy do the floor bendin so i can stand back and look... I cant trust what i see staring down the limb, lol... I have used big leather cups on paracord so i could put it onda tree to see it better and it works purty good.... Brian
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For the most part, its just something that has to be developed. The more you do it, the better you'll get at it. I know there are some that have floor tillering down so well that they skip the long string and go straight to brace. I'm not one of em. I would recommend that you just get the limbs to start to bend and then go to the long string. At least for now. Once you get a better feel for it, you can start taking it a little farther on floor tiller before you go to the long string. It may take longer this way, but it ain't supposed to be a race anyway. ;) Josh
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As I'm sitting down I hold the bow horizontal to the ground with the back facing away from me. I grab the tips of the bow and brace the handle against my knee. I lean back with the tips and I'm able to feel which limb is bending more. Billy Berger does this in his build along video series.
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A good reason, to go straight to a long string!
Like all techniques, it's only useful if it works for you.
I don't 'floor tiller' I may lean on it just to feel if it's flexing a bit, once there is any 'give' it's up on the tiller.
Just 'cos one guy uses a chainsaw to rough out a bow, doesn't mean you should do it!
Del
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+1 Josh. I cant tiller one accurately floor tillering. I too would end up with a mess on my hands. I just get the limbs moving 4 inches or so each, evenly as much as possible, and then get a string on it low brace. This is different than a lot of guys, but it works for me.
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Your putting to much into floor tillering.
DON'T
I cut my bow limbs down to where I want them. Then cut the bow limbs down belly) to where they bend a little (floor tiller) inch maybe. I don't really try to even them up. I leave that to the tillering tree.
I want to put the bow on the tree and get the limbs tillered the same as soon as possable. The sooner you do this. The more draw lenth you have to finetoon the tiller to the weight and draw lenth.
Never pull past your intented draw weight,don't worry about the draw lenth now. Pull past your intented draw weight your putting exture stress on the limbs. That you don't have to do. It helps with to much string follow and set.
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For me floor tillering is a preliminary to be sure that there is no problem(hinge) with the slight bend I get floor tillering. I want only about 4" of tip movement at floor tiller stage. From there I use a long string, but only to about 6" or 8" of tip movement. If everything looks good I go to a low brace height of about 3" to 4". At this point I can see how the string tracks, I can see if infact both limbs are bending evenly and together. From here on it is mostly weight reduction.
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Effective floor tillering requires practice and experience. I do it my looking down the limbs from above, but mostly by feel. It's not too difficult to feel if one limb is stiffer than the other.
I don't use a long string anymore... I go from floor tiller to low brace. But, that took me about 5 years of bow making to be any good at it. Remember, even tapers make even bends. Keep your floor tillering wood removal even on both limbs and your skill will improve.
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John, I think you need a little better understanding of limb tapering. Let the tapering process create the appropriate bend. Not the floor or tree tillering. I'm sure you understand for pyramidal design that only side tapering is needed and would be the easiest type bow to build. For a rectangular limb design, some belly tapering is required. OK...............
Get you a caliper if you don't have one. Now lay each limb out in equal increments. Use the caliper to check measurements on each limb. Keep 'em the same. True, using calipers will not achieve desired bow weight, only experience will do that, but it will allow you to achieve similar limb bend with or close to equal limb mass. And reduce the risk or eliminate unwanted hinges all together.
Once you get some experience doing that, there's little more than reducing bow weight..........Art
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A trick i picked up here (dont remember from who) is to floortiller in front of a mirror.
You get a much better angle to actualy see something.
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Using your fingers feeling for even thickness taper along with floor tillering goes hand in hand...its a 50/50 thing tillering by eye and FEEL...and I believe its a very important thing to learn and master
Majority of my tillering is done on the floor,and I can go straight to brace and be on the money....but like Josh says its something that needs developed...your best teacher is going to be experience and not much anything that can be said to really help ya...but I do disagree with Josh that it is a race >:D I think a lot of guys have the potential to not use the long string and a stick/tree as a crutch(and the tiller gizmo to,but that's another can of worms)...it saves all those countless back n forths of the string on string off/bow on the tree bow off the tree and marking where you need to scrape...your eyes should be able to see where it needs scraped or not...if you use and continue to use all the crutches of bow making your eyes will never fully develop to the potential that they could be...don't get me wrong they still can be good,but not as good as they could be....to me floor tillering is a very important skill to learn and be good at IMHO ;)
BUT....try all the different ways and tricks and do what works best for you....we all have our own ways that work for us....
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to Del the cat: now I want to buy a chainsaw and try it! hahaha... wait maybe I really do
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I use big mirror so I can look straight on at the profile while I pull ;)
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I always ft on the left for some reason,guess everyone has to find what works for them in the passion.I flex the upper limb and it gives me a feel for the balance of the bow!kinda lean back an acess .flip end over end and repeat.if I'm happy I go straight to brace and most times it's close,couple scrapes,exercise ,reasess.
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For the most part, its just something that has to be developed. The more you do it, the better you'll get at it. I know there are some that have floor tillering down so well that they skip the long string and go straight to brace. I'm not one of em. I would recommend that you just get the limbs to start to bend and then go to the long string. At least for now. Once you get a better feel for it, you can start taking it a little farther on floor tiller before you go to the long string. It may take longer this way, but it ain't supposed to be a race anyway. ;) Josh
So very true, at least now I can get to a good floor tiller stage and brace it about 3 inches. From there I have a good idea where to take off material.
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No, I never got a hinge. Lol.
I get the limbs bending 2-3 in and go to the long string. That way I can see what is going on. Jawge
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Your right GEORGE my limbs at this point my limbs are way way to thick to hindge.
( YOUR'S SHOULD BE TO )
I do long string but only long enough to get a string on.
I never short brace my bows. As soon as I can I go straight to my brace height.
I like to tiller a inch longer than I need. That makes my bows 2,3 pounds over. Just a built in safty feature.
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I like to tiller a inch longer than I need. That makes my bows 2,3 pounds over. Just a built in safty feature.
Care to elaborate on that? How is that "safer"? Just curious.
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And how does that make your bow 2-3 pounds over? 50#@28" is 50#@28". If you tiller an inch past, it would be 52-53#@29".
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I think he means if it's at 28" he tillers to 29" just incase it is overdrawn it is fine for the extra inch?
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In my experience, 'over drawing' can have few limits. I make bows to be drawn to a very specific length and no more. I'm careful to educate people who acquire my bows on the dangers of over drawing it. It's impossible to guarantee a bow from breaking if it's over drawn. I don't see how an extra inch will make a bow 'safer.' A bow tillered to 28" is at risk being drawn to 30". JMHO. If someone wants to draw one of my bows, I give them a proper length arrow to do it. It's bad practice to hand someone just a bow, and say 'here, give this a tug.' Good chance they'll over draw it.
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IMHO i think it makes it a little more stable if it's tillered to. 29" and shot at 28". It's been on the tiller tree and exercised to the 29". So therefore in my head when it is pulled to 29" by accident or whatever it's less likely to have too much stress on the limbs. Just my thoughts.
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The farther a bow is drawn, the more stress is placed on the limbs, to the point where they finally fail. Tiller your bow to the desired draw length, and then shoot it there.
What do you mean by 'the bow is more stable' if tillered to 29" and shot at 28"??
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That's just my thought. It may be wrong. That's fine. But I've never saw a how tillered to. 28" break at 27"
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Tillered to 28" break at 27"... not following you. That would be under drawn. No problem doing that.
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Would this be the definition of "overbuilt" , if you want a 60# @27 but build the bow say 65#@28 that doesnt give it a "safe" margin for error or am i just dense? Lol
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No, I don't think that's being dense. No harm in 'over' tillering by an inch. But, if I tiller a bow to 27", that's how far it's been 'taught' to bend, and it's safely been to that point many times. Drawing it past that point is something I don't recommend. All else being equal, more weight & longer draw generally equals more set. Not always, but usually. It's just not the way I begin a bow build. If I want 27", I tiller to 27". During the process, I'm sure there's times I pull the bow past my intended draw length by small amounts, but I always have a goal in mind from the beginning. Also, if I'm measuring someone's draw length and it's 26.5", I'll definitely tiller their bow to 27".
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Ok i get it,the term is overtillered,overbuilt is different ,,dont pile on boys. :laugh:
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I understand the idea behind over tillering a bow to make it "safer" but tillering to a certain draw length is tillering to a certain draw length. if tillered to 50# at 29" but your draw is 28" then you will only be pulling the bow into about 48# of stress even though the limbs have compressed the fibers of wood to take the 50# stress and bend more than needed. unless you have long armed friends who need to pull your bows back then it seems to be setting up for more set in the limbs and more time tillering for not much output on the limbs part. i by no means have enough experience to be saying this but I read the bowyers bibles 3 or 4 times so I feel smarter on the subject than I actually am. also if that style works for you and your bows shoot straight, who am I to say my approach is any better. piece of mind is more important than absolute adherence to another mans ideas and practices.