Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Around the Campfire => Topic started by: seabass on August 14, 2013, 09:32:18 pm
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hey guys,i just acquired a fine german double shotgun today.it is a 16 gauge sidexside Carl Stiegele with double hammers and fully ingraved.the only part that is missing is the buttstock.i am looking for a gunstock maker.please someone point me in the right direction.the gun is in excellent condition and I want it restored.plus if anyone knows any info on this gunmaker let me know.i know he made guns for german royalty and the emperor of japan.also his business went from the late 1800's to 1927,but that is about all I know on this gunmaker.any help will be greatly appreciated.i'll try and get some pics after work tomarrow.thanks,Steve
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I love old shotguns Steve, At one time I was a pretty good shot. Back in the early 2000's I've been known to shoot about 5500 rounds a year. Skeet and Sporting Clays.
Love to see a pic of that one...
DBar
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i'll try and get you some pics after work tomarrow Bill.it is missing the buttstock,but it is an all original beauty.shiney bores and all the old patina that one could ask for.locks up like a bank vault.smooth and crisp.
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I been lookin' for a set of mated barrels that I can turn into a side by side double barrel flintlock shotgun. Wanna trade some osage scraps and a chewed up dog collar for 'em? I'll throw in my baling twine collection, the ball is almost 6 inches across by now!
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here's the gun Bill.
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another pic.sorry for the crappy pic as I am having trouble resizing.
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Wow, that is super sexy.
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Looks like a fine Black Powder candidate. Is the barrels Damascus?
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What's the likelyhood that all the engraving on that gun was done by a little old man on a stool pulled up to the bench, hunched over his set of gravers tapping away with his hammer while humming softly to himself. He spent his whole life doing one one thing and learning to do it to the best of his ability. He brought home his paycheck and took care of his hausfrau und kindchen. He was quietly proud of his work and his family. When he passed they spoke well of him for years to come.
If he knew you cared for this gun so much that you would go to these lengths to get it re-stocked he would smile. And his work was not in vain.
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Amen to what JW said.
Steve you'd do that piece well to restock it. I'll keep you in mind when I talk to my muzzleloader friends. Take your time and do that one right. Friendship is coming up soon, can't remember the date right now. But I'll find out. I'm sure someone there could help you out. Just walk around with that in your hands and everyone would be interested.
Bill
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Eddie,the barrels are Krupp fluid steel nitro proofed.it is engraved down to every last screw.it also has a greener cross bolt box lock action.i am having a very tough time researching this piece.i did find some interesting info.most were took home during ww2.35 went home with no forestock on them.a hunter from Dayton Ohio got with the company requesting them to make a forestock.the company found the original stocks and sent him one.i live 20 minutes from Dayton where the hunter lived.i am wondering if my gun was one of the 35 that went missing.never know.btw it is ingraved with my initials,SWR.
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Wow, the history keeps getting better and better.
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That is one of the most beautiful shotguns I have ever seen.
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it does get interesting JW.i wonder if the 35 missing guns went to Dayton?the hunter had a rifle,but they said 35 were break action guns.mine came from a co worker that lives in Dayton.it cost me a whole 200 bucks,but I think it will be worth it in the end.
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Will the breeches handle smokeless powder?
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Pop the barrels of and try to get a pic of the proof marks on the underside of them !!
I would do it for you steve but I am not in good shape to do it maybe Dave Berlett has time ! I can't seem to find his number right now ! Sorry
He is north of you a bit but with in driving distance. Pm me !
Jw what size barrels you looking for , there was some around here ,if I did not all ready get rid of them and forgot , let me do some digging! Better PM me before I forget you wanted some !
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Guy,it has a lot of numbers and marks under the forestock.the problem is I can't find a good place to look them up.i just got the gun a couple of days ago,so I am just getting started on my research.i didn't know you was a stock maker.i hope you get to feeling better buddy.
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Can you get the marks to show up in a pic ?
I want to see them !
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That will be one fine shotty..nothing like shooting peasents with a sxs..
Thanks Leroy
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That will be one fine shotty..nothing like shooting peasents with a sxs..
Thanks Leroy
PHEASANTS!
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That's what I meant JW..Didn't mean to offend the non-royality class..Wuz da thurd graed spilling chumpine....
Thanks Leroy
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Guy ,the marks were to small to get a good pic..there is a bird,a crown over a U,a crown over a W on one barrel,a 16 inside a circle and an 18/1.serial #14302.here is a pic of how the marks lay on the underside of the barrels.just to clarify,all marks are on both barrels except one barrel also has a crown over the W.one site said that the crown over the W meant that the gun was a drilling and the rifle barrel was converted to a shotgun barrel.any info would be helpful brother.
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I thought a drilling was a double barrel over a rifle barrel...three barrels in one gun.
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A Drilling is a rifle under a double barrel shotgun. You can't convert a rifle barrel to a shotgun barrel! Unless you talking smaller than a .410 ! You could replace a rifle barrel though. ;) Most of the Drilling rifles were chambered for a 9mm rifle cartridge, or 7, or 8 mm. I forget the correct designations for those calibers. as for stocks contact Pachmayer . I believe you can still get fancy grade french walnut shotgun butt stock blanks from Dixie Arms. I don't know what Pachmayer will charge, but I doubt it will be cheap. But if you want to do honor to a fine piece of old world craftsmanship, then that would be the route to go. When I was in Italy, I was in a small gun shop, and admiring the beautiful shotguns this guy and his Dad made. The Bluing was just phemoninal! He had a beautiful .410 side by side with hammers. I almost bought it! But I was in the army, and at $105.00 a month, I couldn't afford much! But I got to talking to the guy, and he was showing me some of the guns he was building in the back of the shop, and some he was repairing, and he showed me a beautiful side by side 12 gauge, and asked if I knew of Pachmayer, and I said yes, he said well he made guns for him, and showed me an order form from Pachmayer, and in fact this was one that Pachmayer, had stocked! Check them out and see if they will make a stock for it. If it was made in the 20's, it should handle smokeless powder. Are the chambers able to accept a modern 16 gauge shell?
Or are they the shorter shell? Some of the late 1800, and early 1900's on 12 gauges at least had a 2 1/2 inch chamber. But check with Pachmayer, and see what they say, or suggest. Also check out Imperial, and Bishop. Or just Google gun stock makers, there a bunch! Good luck. Beautiful find! 8) 8) You sound like Eddie and his flea market finds! ;) ::)
Wayne
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Wayne,one site said that he made a side by side rifle shotgun combo.and the barrel with the crown over the W was drilled out and sleeved to 16guage.i have looked and this doesn't seem to be the case.i wonder why only one barrel has the crown over the W.
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The first thing I would do is find a picture of a similar gun and see what the butt stock is supposed to look like, shape, checkering, buttplate design etc. Next, I would have someone with the know how measure you for the correct length of pull and drop and possibly cast off. Finally, I would be spending the cash to send the gun to a top notch gunsmith for correct restocking to your measurements. Don't scrimp on the quality of the wood you restock it with. The saying among us gun builders is " you will never regret spending more money on a fancier piece of wood than you initially planned to use". One might regret going plain Jane on your wood later after you have invested hundreds of hours in a build.
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The proof marks are not what I expected and a little confusing to me as they are a bit different than what I normally see ! Perhaps it is a bit more up scale than this backwoods country boy is used to !!
The type of crowns you have drawn are British looking but normally would have a V not a U under them . The U could be a mark for Unfinished barrels that where shipped to a different country for assembly I suppose .
The large bird looking mark look West German but they usually have a Sp , V, or a J under them so we may have to do a little more studding for the answer to this riddle !
At any rate these type of marks seem to me to indicate a fairly good chance this is worth the money to restock and not just a extra good hardware store bought gun !
So now you have my interest up and I hope we find your answers soon !
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I have a wedding to deal with this weekend so no time to help out , Sorry would rather help you !
Try the forum at doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php or the one at shotgun world.com
From a quick search seems Carl juts handled orders for other folks but the orders were high enough end that his name meant more than a hardware store name !
Most of the guns were built by Suhl or Zella Mehlis , some by F. W. Kebler but I am sure FW guns were not of this type action ! so try the other two names along with what is on your gun !
Have fun with your search ! I think it will be a long and winding path with plenty of switchbacks but may well be worth the time !
Let me know how it goes !!!
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I will keep you updated Guy.it has been a tough research thus far.Carl Stiegele did get guns from other makers.he would not let them use their own marks so he could put on his own.his guns where made by very fine German gun builders.he delt with royalty and very wealthy clientel.i believe the 18/1 means it was made January 1st 1918,but I am not sure about that.i guess the search continues.
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Eric,i forgot to add that I am going to have a pro do the restoration.i think this gun deserves it.i have seen a few similar guns by this maker going for 2,500 dollars,but the where not as old as this one.they were hammerless.i believe this one may be worth a little something.not that I would ever sell it.this is my second oldest gun.i also have an 1816 springfield musket that was converted in 1835 from flintlock to percussion.i do love old guns.
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Sorry buddy
My memory is not so good and your drawing may not be the best for jogging it !
The east german suhl would not have imported barrels normaly so it got me thinking
good thing cause I ain't so good with german marks even if I am of full blooded german descent !
The crowns with the U are Shul inspector marks not British proof marks and the crown with the W is a choke bore barrel mark
If you had a crown with an R under it would be a repair proof
These designations started in 1950 not sure how that fits into your thoughts !
If I am interpreting this right it puts you into modern gun and that may be what is up that it did not make sense to me I have not studied the modern stuff !
I think you have an east German Suhl on your hands That was ordered thru Carl Steigele Jr not Sr
Sorry I should not post from memory anymore , but will forget that fact also I am sure !
Have fun and keep digging ! You need to find those exact proof marks to get any farther
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Karl sr. and Karl jr.,both of their names started with a K.their dads name started with a C.this is not one of the modern guns.i have seen them and they are different.i have looked at the christoph funk guns and I am starting to think that his firm may have built this gun for Carl.i am not sure yet,but this is the way I am leaning.i am thinking it came from Suhl.i still have a way to go,but either way I am going to get it restored so I can hunt birds with it.i'll never sell it so I don't care what it is worth.i am just curious.thank you so much for helping.i want to know all I can.it has my initials on it SWR.i would love to know who that is.also.they wasn't making hammer guns after 1927.this gun was made before the fifties,and if it was I don't care.it is high quality and I am going to have it restored.it is a nice piece and needs to be put back in action.thank you so much for helping me with the research.
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Seabass, I did a Google search for Carl Steigle, and there is a lot of auction stuff on it, and some pictures. I tried to copy the pictures, for the hammer gun, but this is all that came up. But he definitely made guns for Royalty, including a Japanese Emperor. Anyway good luck with it, and don't skimp on the wood. A high grade fancy french walnut, or Circassian walnut, would look great. But there are a lot of pictures, and info on Carl Steigle.
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Click Here To View All Guns For Sale > German & Austrian Double Shotguns
ORNATE BAVARIAN 16 GA. DOUBLE HAMMER SHOTGUN BY CARL STIEGLE, JR. OF MUNICH CIRCA 1880-90.
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Category - German & Austrian Double Shotguns 16 Gauge Shotguns
Guns International #: 100363531
Lister Inventory #: 24884
ORNATE BAVARIAN 16 GA. DOUBLE HAMMER SHOTGUN BY CARL STIEGLE, JR. OF MUNICH CIRCA 1880-90.
Description:
ORNATE BAVARIAN 16 GA. DOUBLE HAMMER SHOTGUN BY CARL STIEGLE, JR. OF MUNICH CIRCA 1880-90. 29” Prima-Kruppscher (best fluid steel) barrels with 2 9/16th ” chambers and full chokes. Engraved on the rib “C. STIEGELE JUN. MUNCHEN”. Finest quality game scene and oak leaf engraving. Checkered walnut stock with horn forend barrel release and pistol grip adaptor. 13 ¼” pull over checkered steel butt plate. Coin finished locks and frame with nearly all the original finish. Barrels with all the original blue and mint bores. Stock and forend excellent with the original finish. Shows very little use. Locks in perfect working order with both hammers and firing pins functioning. The right hammer is without checkering on the face of the ear which may have either been removed or made as such but are otherwise identical. One of the finest quality German shotguns of it’s day. Carl Stiegele was maker to the Bavarian Royal family.
Price: 2,500.00
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thank you so much stickbender.i will promise you that I am not going to skimp on the wood or the restoration.i am going to need some firing pin springs made because I believe it needs them.i am going to do it right brother.i looked at some Turkish walnut yesterday.i think the wood came with a loan application lol.some blanks cost 2,900 dollars.i cannot afford something like that at this time.i am thinking 3 to 4 hundred.that sould be good enough for me.i am not a rich man.and that is just for the blank without the fitting and checkering.like I said I am poor.i promise I will do this gun justice.
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i found a little more info on the proof marks.crown over W means choked barrel,crown over U means proof approved,16/1 is exact bore diameter and the eagle means proof tested with smokeless powder.i believe the shell length 2 9/16.and the search continues.
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Hope you did not think I said it was not a fine gun , I am sure it is !!
The possibility it was inspected and re tested in the 50s is valid
Hammer guns are still being built today and they are still the better guns
what good german has ever spelled Karl with a C
Where did you find the proof mark info , I need to add it to my paper work
I am still hoping you find your answers
The fellow I had hoped to get to do the stock for you does not have time to do it and wants to retire , but when I see him face to face I will try to twist his arm for you !
Did you get on the sites I listed there may be help on them !
Take care and hope to see you soon !!!
Guy
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That will be one fine shotty..nothing like shooting peasents with a sxs..
Thanks Leroy
Sire!
The Peasants are Revolting!!!
I Know, they Stink On Ice!
Pull!!!
Throws Peasant into the air...
Bang!!!
But really, that IS a Fine piece of Shooting History.
And the Story Keeps getting Better as the days pass.
-gus
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Guy,i just googled german proof marks and some sites came up.some guns were grandfathered which means they had to ngo before the proof houses again.i am thinking that this is a Christoph funk gun.it is marked Suhl.