Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: juniper junkie on November 23, 2007, 12:30:52 pm
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I just finished reading hillbilly's great story on the southern community bow. great job guys! that is one sweet set of archery tackle. but I would like to see what the pioneer spirit of the west can produce. I am sure we can be competitive to a bunch of possum eatin hillbilly's. LOL. I will donate a yew stave roughed in and floor tillered....any takers? we could draw the line maybe at the mississippi river? or another suggestion..
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If this gets off the ground, I can weave and sew a....bow sock. Never guessed, did you guys?
I'm originally from the West (California), do I count?
Dane
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Count me in for some arrows . Am gun shy of bows lately. Kenneth
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I'm in. I could tiller, or install tips, or finish, etc. Just let me know what you need done.
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Count me in as well--I can make really good posts about awesome bows that other people make! I can contribute stuff like, "Awesome bow!" or "Great craftsmanship!"
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Hi folks, Count me in. I'd like to suggest a west coast style bow, though maybe stretched a little to accomodate a more modern( 28") draw. Sorry if that's getting ahead of things, but my mind is racing already. I like to work with sinew and would sinew the bow, if we start one that needs backing.
Hey Dane I for one am willing to let you work your fingers to the bone weaving bow socks. Thanks for the offer.
Juniper Junkie, are you sure you can spare a yew stave? That last truckload of yew will take a while to season. Ron
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ron, I have other yew all ready to go. by western style are you meaning native? such as a yurok or klamath short bow?
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Juniper, Yes I meant a western native bow, such as Yurock, etc. Or at least one inspired by the originals. The sources I'm looking at suggest the originals ( all tribes combined) ranged from 30-55". I was thinking that a 55-60 inch backed bow if this general style could safely take a 28" draw. In addition, it would give us an excuse for some potentially super painting on the back, and perhaps some footed arrows etc.
I'm currently working on a mountain juniper bow with this general idea. It's 2" wide, slightly bendy handle, bent tab ends and 62" long. I've got it all ready to paint the back. I haven't chrono'd it yet, but I'm happy with the way it shoots. If it holds up, I plan to try agian with a 55" bow in yew or juniper.
Anyway it's just one suggestion.
I kidding about seasoning the yew. I'm just jealous about that truck load you were posting pictures of.
Ron
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You got a problem with possum? :D Sounds like a good deal ,looking forward to seeing what yall come up with,keep us updated. :)
Pappy
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Hey Ya'll. I live in GA and I'd like to be part of the western bow project. I know, I know, I'm an easterner, but I've got some great ideas!
Here's what I'll do: I'll take a sliver of rotten hickory, glue it on the back with old, rotten stinky hide glue. But before I use the glue, I'll mix a big bag of glitter into the smelly, putrid glue. That way when the hickory is glued onto the back, it'll be all glittery. Then I'll glue spikes on the belly of the bow that face toward the shooter.
Here's what happens: The guy goes to shoot the bow for the first time. When he pulls it back, the rotten hickory will pull apart, causing the bow to explode. At that very moment, the hide glue will immediately pulverize. All the glitter will be released and it will fall slowly to the ground like a magical wonderland. Of course, don't forget about the spikes that I put onto the belly of the bow. Those will be impaled into the shooter as he watches the glitter fall to the ground. Busted bow limbs, stinky glitter, and some guy with a serious case of splinters will be all that remains. Now, let me join your team!! MUAHH HAAA HAAAAA!!! >:D >:D >:D
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Billy, perfect! Get to work on it.
I can hardly wait to see your full draw picture, of course :) The glitter and blood will be truly magical.
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Well guys, It would be nice to get a couple more interested people to get this project off the ground. From the suggestions they're making, it sounds like we have some of those southerners running scared. Anybody know someone well enough to pm them and dragoon them onto the project? Ron
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whoa there billy, did you have some funky mushrooms on your salad ????? OK you can join our team, just promise you wont sabotage the bow.
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HAhaha...I was just kidding! I would be a part of the bow project, but I just don't know when I'll find the time. I've got too much on my plate already.
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I will get to work on the stave this weekend, who wants it next? send me a PM with your address.
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sent the stave out to M-P today to do the next step. who wants to get it next? we need a team! :D
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Hey fellers, I was waitin around to see what happend. Don't trust myself to work on someone else's bow yet, but them arra's are gonna need points - would be happy to throw in my two cents worth :).
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Looks like yall have a pretty small Army. ;) ;D
Pappy
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Pappy, I guess the folks out here are either too busy or too independent. Or maybe juniperjunkie got a whole bunch of pm's and he has a list of names a yard long. Ron
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Hey, I'm a born and raised Nevada resident... so that counts for the west. Don't know what I could do, but if there's anything just drop me a PM.
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Think youre right Pap - need a chief :).
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where is the pioneer spirit??? the spirit which created the Oregon trail, conquered the new frontier (actually it was stolen from the natives), and helped to create the greatest nation on earth!! ??? us decendants of these great pioneers cannot fail in this cause, a call to rally our troops in defense of honor and glory, which is ours! ;D. let us show them yanks and confedrates what we are made of >:D who is with me???? ??? (yeah, I have had too much coffee) 8)
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Hehe ;D. Here we go...
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Hey Watterlogged,
You have a PM.
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Hi Folks, I picked up juniperjunkie's stave today and it looks nearly ideal. There's just a couple of small knots to give us a slight challenge toward the final stages of tillering. Overall it looks to me like the sort of starting material most stone wielding peoples would have chosen, not too big and nice straight grain. I'm in the final staging of shooting in my latest bow. It's a west coast indian influenced bow, but lengthened to allow a 28" draw. So far the new bow is living up to my expectations so I'm going to base the community bow on similar lines. ~ 60 inches long, short recurves on the tips, bend through the handle bow with sinew backing and art work on the back. That's my vision, though as I understand it each person that gets the stave gets to amend things based on their idea of what the stave is doing. Ron
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Hi folks, Juniper sent me a wonderful stave, but I'm afraid that with season and all, there has been zero progress on my part. I have a couple of extra days off this week and was planning to start soon. Tomorrow I've promised to go wood shoping with a friend and get him started on an Ipe bow. Once that's out if the way I'll start on the yew stave Juniper Junkie sent. I'm plaaning on cutting the stave ~ 1.5 " shorter to even up one end. That will probably mean redoing all the lay out lines Juniper made. I'll do the preliminary shaping and floor tillering. The next step is further cleaning up of the back and working closer to whatever knots are left. Then the tips need to be recurved by bending or tabbing. Volunteers contact Juniper Junkie!
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OK folks, I worked on the western community bow today. I cleaned up the back a little more, and then checked the layout lines that juniper junkie laid out on the belly. There was a fairly large defect on the back at one end. Wish I'd thought to take a photo before working on it. The defect appeared to be a chip due to starting the saw cut at two different levels. Juniper's layout assumed that the stave would be left full length, so I didn't want to just cut the affected end shorter and have to lay out the lines all over again. I basically said what the heck, it's only in the sapwood and just thinned the sapwood to below the level of the defect. Then I began thinning the belly at the edges to bring the stave to pretty much a lenticular cross section everywhere but the handle. As near as I can tell from the literature these bows were always thinned at the edges, never perfectly flattened bellies, or round cross sections. By the time I got done the stave was starting to floor tiller pretty good. Attached are some pictures I took before working on the stave. I'm posting email sized versions so the detail is poor, but you can get an idea. I included my latest bow for comparison. My finished bow is mountain juniper from the Mt Lassen area. The finished dimensions are almost identical the the stave Juniper Junkie provided. My bow appears slightly shorter, but that's due the recurves.
I'll work some more on the floor tillering in a couple of days and then I think I'd better send it on to someone else. Ron
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Whoa! Now that's turned into a fine lookin bow - look at that tiller, Yeehawww ;D.
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Thanks Cowboy, I'll be posting more photos so it can be in BOM, but the point is, the stave Dave provided for the Western Community bow should has the potential to become something at least as good. We do need more participants though. The more the merrier at least partly 'cause everyone gets to make a decision or two so that the bow will hopefully end up different than anybody imagined. Ron
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Hey Westerners I'd love to help. Just let me know what you need from me. Joel
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Hi Folks, I got the stave floor tillered over a month ago and spent some time smoothing the back. I kept thinking I would recurve the tips before sending it on, but every time I get ready something comes up. I think it's time for me to admit I'm holding things up and just send the stave on to the next guy. There's multiple choices for " the next step". You might want to tackle a little recurve (what Gordon calls flipping the tips.) Or maybe skip recurves and just put some reflex into the bow as you apply a good layer of sinew. Or maybe someone wants to cut in some nocks and tiller to ~ 1/2 draw length, before applying the sinew. So far the handle is left full width, but the stave could accept a slightly narrowed handle. Some one will have to make that decision before tillering gets too far. etc.
Somebody step forward and let me know where to send the stave! I know Gordon volunteered to tiller the thing and believe he's pretty good at that tip flipping thing.
I'll take a couple of photos to post before I sent the stave, but to tell the truth it doesn't look very exciting yet. Just another floor tillered stave.
Ron
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where is the pioneer spirit??? the spirit which created the Oregon trail, conquered the new frontier (actually it was stolen from the natives), and helped to create the greatest nation on earth!! ??? us decendants of these great pioneers cannot fail in this cause, a call to rally our troops in defense of honor and glory, which is ours! ;D. let us show them yanks and confedrates what we are made of >:D who is with me???? ??? (yeah, I have had too much coffee) 8)
My grandparents rode the train, I guess that rules me out. :D Justin
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I'd be happy to tiller it some and flip the tips up. I don't think, however, that sinewing a bow on the west side of the Cascades in the winter is a particularly good idea given the high humidity.
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Gordon, Your name came to mind based on your excellent build along. If you're ready to work on the tips I'll send the stave. PM me with an snail mail address. I'm sure we can find or draft someone in a drier climate to apply some sinew before final tillering. Ron
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I sort of nominated Gordon to be next and he accepted, so the stave is on its way to him. Here are some pictures of the the progress to date. Floor tillering looks pretty good to me though I expect limb B to be stronger once a tillering string is used. Limb A has several small knots, including two punky transverse knots that are currently on the surface of the belly. Hopefully final tillering will cut deeper than those punky knots. There is a knot near each tip, with an especially large knot on limb A. I expect that a nice recurve can be placed distal to the knot on limb A, and the knot on limb B is small enough not to cause problems. It's up to Gordon to whether and how much to flip the tips. As I understand it the recurves on this style bow are partly there for cosmetics and largely to keep the string from slopping off. There's probably no reason why they have to be there on this bow.
Ron
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc270/May-Pumphrey/floortillered.jpg
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc270/May-Pumphrey/bellyafterfloortillering.jpg
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc270/May-Pumphrey/bellytipB.jpg
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc270/May-Pumphrey/bellytipA.jpg
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc270/May-Pumphrey/tipBback.jpg
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc270/May-Pumphrey/tipAback.jpg
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That stave has slicked up nice :). Looking foward to seeing it's progress..
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looking good! after Gordon does his magic, then Keenan said he will maybe apply the sinew and/or sturgeon skins.
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then Keenan said he will maybe apply the sinew and/or sturgeon skins.
Perfect!
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Sounds great Dave, Let me know when you get close to shipping it over Gordon and I'll make sure that I have some skins ready. Dave, if that one shots anything like your last juniper bow I'll have to do some serious bidding for that one. ;D ;D ;D Keenan
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Keenan, MP has the stave, it is a yew stave.
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Opps sorry Dave I was thinking that one was juniper. My missunderstanding. Keenan
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I have the stave - wow, what a beautiful piece of yew! I've not worked with yew much or made a NW Indian design so a couple of questions:
1) At 1 1/4" the tips seem pretty wide - should I narrow them before I put curve the tips?
2) Should I use boil, steam or dry heat the tips to bend them?
Thanks!
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ttt
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Gordon, I send this message as a pm, but the rest of the group might be prodded into adding their 2 cents, so:
I agree it's a nice looking stave. I don't claim to be an expert on west coast style bows, but I did as much research as my personal library allowed. Even with that limited amount of material it appears that there was a lot of variation on the theme of short, wide bows with short static recurve. I photo copied some pages from a couple of books you may not have and wrapped them with the stave. TBB also has a chapter that may be helpful. I assumed that everyone has a copy by now. I feel that the tips probably should be narrowed somewhat, but left them wide on the assumption that getting the recurves straight would be easier done first and the tips narrowed later, but then again maybe I'm backwards. Some of the illustrations in TBB show a fairly wide tip.
I like the dimensions that Pope published for one of Ishi's bows: yew with a rawhide back 55" 1 5/8 inch wide handle, 1 3/4 inch wide midlimb and 3/4 inch wide tips with a slight recurve ( see the table I copied.)
A similar Yurok bow was yew- sinew backed, 54" 1 7/8 wide handle, 2 3/8 wide limbs and 1 3/8 inch wide tips.
Recurves seem to have varied from none to very pronounced, with some done as a "bent tab".
Ron
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I have the stave - wow, what a beautiful piece of yew! I've not worked with yew much or made a NW Indian design so a couple of questions:
1) At 1 1/4" the tips seem pretty wide - should I narrow them before I put curve the tips?
2) Should I use boil, steam or dry heat the tips to bend them?
I have only boiled them and it worked well. the tips could be narrowed some after the curving. that was some fire killed yew I got out of the cascades a couple of years ago, really dense stuff.
Thanks!
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I just finished reading hillbilly's great story on the southern community bow. great job guys! that is one sweet set of archery tackle. but I would like to see what the pioneer spirit of the west can produce. I am sure we can be competitive to a bunch of possum eatin hillbilly's. LOL. I will donate a yew stave roughed in and floor tillered....any takers? we could draw the line maybe at the mississippi river? or another suggestion..
i am within walking distance of the EAST side of the river :'(
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I narrowed the tips some and put in mild recurves. I first tried steam yet, but that seemed to have no effect. I then boiled the tips for an hour and they bent just fine.
Next up, bringing the curves into alignment.
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Haven't seen this in awhile - that looks good Gordon. That form resembles the one Saw Filer had described some time back. I'm going to have to make one like that to keep the tips as close as possible during curving..
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Nice job on them tips Gordon!!
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Wow is that looking nice. Great job guys. And you did awesome on those tips Gordon,,,,, ;D ;D ;D Keenan
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First time I have seen this thread..Very nice, gonna be a feather burner! ;D
Rich
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Nice job Gordon! It's beginning to look like a real nice bow. Are you going to send it on once the tips are aligned, or do you have the next step planned?
Ron
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Are you going to send it on once the tips are aligned, or do you have the next step planned?
Well, I thought I might tiller the bow before sending it on to Keenan for skinning. Is everyone alright with that?
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Unless, of course, you want to sinew back it. But at 61" ntn I don't really think it is needed - not with this nice piece of wood anyway. What weight do you think we ought to shoot for?
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Sounds great to me Gordon I think you'd do a better job on that then me ;D ;), And the skins shouldn't really change things much at all. Keenan
Do you have any idea where it is on poundage now? Is there still plenty to work with or will we need to reserve or even boost the potential? Keenan
Opps neber mind just looked back and see there is plenty of wood there. ;D
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I would vote for a 40-50 pound bow. It's beautiful wood, but a thin layer of sinew wouldn't hurt. It's up to you, though. Just my two cents worth. Ron
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I think we could easily make a 70# bow from this stave if we wanted to. If we want to back with sinew, then I'll just align the tips and send it off to Keenan. Too much moisture right now to do a sinew job on this side of the Cascades. Just let me know what you all would like to do.
Oh Keenan, you're much too humble. I've seen your work first hand - you could tiller circles around me.
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Okay I talked with Keenan. I'll align the tips, tiller the bow partially and then send off to Keenan for sinew backing.
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I started looking at West Coast designs and I hate to say it, but I think I've already blown it if we wanted to stay true to that style of bow. First I narrowed the tips to about 1" which was a mistake if the bow is going to have pin nocks with wide shoulders. And second, the recurves I put in are too long. I feel really bad about this. I'll go ahead and align the tips, and then send it on its way before I do any more damage. :-[
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Gordon,, Dave was over here this morning and just left a few minutes ago but I had should him your earlier post and he was very pleased. There is probably still enough meat on there to do the pin nocks and We could shorten a hare of the tips if you think they are to long. But I don't remember the overal length.
I'll give Dave a call and see if I can get some better feed back. He really knows the styles alot better then me. Keenan
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Gordon, I just talked to Dave, His input was that it won't be a true replica anyway because it's to long to be. And if we did a true replica most people wouldn't be able to shoot a bow that short. So with that said I think we are aiming for more of a "western styled" bow. So if you want to send it on over we can go from there or if you want to do more feel free to go for it. No harm done. ;D ;D ;D ;) Keenan
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The stave is 63" long so you're right the tips could easily be shortened. And that would help mitigate both of the issues I described ealier :P
I feel better about it now. I'll align the tips and then let Dave and you figure out how best to proceed from there.
Thanks!
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I'm no expert, but I think everything is on track. I, for one, have no desire to learn to shoot a twenty inch draw and think we should keep in mind that the eventual owner probably will want to draw closer to 28", too. The native bows are an inspiration, but need modification to suit most of us modern folk. After working on the stave, I think a thin sinew back is optional, but would be a safety factor since we don't know who the eventual owner will be. Though I've got plans for putting in a bid when it finally gets auctioned off. Do we have a plan for the organization/ charity this bow will benefit?
The latest addition of TBB has a chapter on Ishi's archery tackle. Several bows are illustrated and the tips tend to be narrowed down to ~ 1 inch or less, so I think Gordon's well within the ball park. The recurves are longer than what I had in mind, but seem proportional to the the longer length of the bow.
Almost all of the bows are illustrated to have a sinew wrapping around the shoulders of the pin nock. Other tribes' bows have a similar wrapping of rawhide. All done to prevent the shoulders from being split by the string ( I guess.)
There were a couple of people that said they would work on arrows and a bow sock etc. How are those parts of the project going? Is ther anybody interested in making a sinew string? And, how about a quiver?
Ron
Ron
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good input Ron, I think we could widen the circle by having some others make arrows, string and quiver. I have a few syringa shafts if someone wants to use them. if we dont have the sinew, I have some deer rawhide we could use.
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Looks like this project is coming along,Looking good so far. :)
Pappy
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The recurves were not aligned so I took of that today. I utilized the setup pictured below to torque the limb while I apply heat. I have a stop below the wieght that will allow the limb to move only as far as I need it to go. They seem to align pretty well now. Keenan, I expect you may still have to do some fine tuning as the bow is tillered, but I will leave that to you. I'll make a shipping tube for the bow and then send it off.
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;D ;D Looking Great Gordon. I love the weight set up,Like I said befor at least you use real weights. ;) Seems with all the piles of steel around here I am always hanging square tube or channle iron or some piece of scrap iron.
Thanks for all your work on this project, I'll try not to screw it up. Ofcourse I plan on having Dave supervise and looking over my shoulder just in case I goof I can blame him >:D
Sounds like we are going to sinew them have Dave, do one of those incredible "work of art" paint jobs that he's famouse for. Keenan
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I can't believe I missed this! It seems impossible! This is great, looking forward to seeing the finished bow and set.
I would be thrilled to help, if I can. Is there anything I can do, or has everything been decided?
Sean
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Sean, I don't think everything has been decided yet. I don't recall anyone signing up for the finish work or handle.
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bow is looking good Gordon. Sean, we also need arrows and quiver. I think we were shooting for 40-50#s maybe a little more. what do you think Gordon?
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There is plenty of wood on this stave. I'd vote for 50-55# - especially if the back is going to be sinewed.
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hmmmm.....arrows and a quiver? I would be happy to do the arrows if that's all right. I would need some river cane/bamboo, though, and maybe we could get someone to knapp a few heads.
Sean
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Wait, Kenneth, are you still up for arrows? If so, I might work a quiver(?)
Sean
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Hi Folks, I just thought I'd post a message to ping everyone and see what progress has been made in the last couple of months. Gordon's last post showed some nice recurves being added. Is there anything new to report? How are all the ancillary projects ( string, arrows, quiver, bow sock, etc) doing. If you're working on it let everyone know, or better yet post pictures.
Ron