Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Greebe on July 19, 2013, 02:56:08 pm
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I have been out out ob bow building for around 12 years and getting back into it. I have found it interesting that back when I was making bows the first time around in the mid 90's, that oak was pretty unanimously look down on. Now it seems that it has become more accepted and widely adopted as a bow wood. I had built some board bows out of red oak back then against the advice from a lot of people, mostly because it was something that I could easily pick up at the hardware store. I did break the limb off of one that had been sitting for years, and it was a pretty impressive explosion. The limb wacked me in the head, but there were no serious injuries.
So why has oak gained such favor in the past 18 years? Is it just an availability thing? I noticed even that on another forum that they have a list of woods some which are listed as non bow woods and others as true bow woods. Oddly enough to my surprise oak is on the "true bow woods" list. Here is that link: http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/47641/List-of-Potenial-Bow-Wood-Species-With-Comments
Seems like from what I remember when reading the "The Traditional Bowyer's Bible" books back in the mid 90's that they recommend against using oak for bows.
So what is your guys take on this?
Thanks I will be curious to hear your answers.
Greebe
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People may have their preferences and opinions but it's pretty hard to argue with a mountain of fast, sturdy and good looking bows made out of oak.
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I wonder why it used to be generally accepted that oak was not good for bows? Like I said I made some nice bows from oak. They did not last forever, but they shot well. Perhaps it is because yew, hickory, or osage were the best woods so in the old days no one experimented much with oak?
It is interesting. I am not bashing oak, just curious about the change in the preference for oak as a bow wood.
Thanks
Greebe
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I've heard that white oak breaks after hickory if that's true well then there's no arguement
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I cant think of any wood that would beat hickory in an elasticity race. You can literally tie it in knots.
Greebe its not the species of wood as much as its form that is "looked down" on. Some people are passionate about stave bows and have no time for a board. Just personal preference.
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Gotcha. I have seen videos on the net where people are making bows out of PVC pipe and are apparently getting good results. I have thought about playing with that just for fun. Can you imagine saying you were going to build a bow out of plastic pipe back in the 90's. People would have thought you were nuts. I guess maybe times are just changing and people aren't as judgmental as in the past.
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Oh yes, people are every bot as judgemental as ever. Im one! PVC is for plumbing and wood is for bows.
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I think it's an availability thing. It certainly can't be because it's a particularly good wood for bows. I've never heard of any 'bow wood' failing as often as red oak does. Folks often expect it to fail before they even begin.
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I was making bows in the mid 90's and information on design and performance has gotten a lot better. Jim hamm said that you could not make a bow out of a board and I accept that as fact. and then multiple people came along and proved that wrong. more people, more bows makes for better infomation. we all learn from each other
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Folks often expect it to fail before they even begin.
Because RO is relatively inexpensive and easy to come by, it is likely used by newer bowyers over "better" more expensive bow woods to cut their teeth on, and since new bowyers break more than experienced bowyers, maybe the bad name that RO seems to have is due to this relation. Just guessing. I dont really see a difference between oak and other white woods - - they are design dependent - -so long as the bow is made sufficiently wide and long for the wood species, it will make a fine bow. PDs specs are right on. Good Luck.
Russ
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I've seen the trend where a lot are building bows out of whatever wood they can , they are plying with design as much as wood type . With the right design a lot of wood out there that was looked down on are turning out good bows ( according to TBB one style was what most bows followed , then someone stepped out of the norm and bows of all styles started surfacing ).
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The majority if not all of the red oak boards I've seen that broke have been due to operator error and not the woods fault...mostly due to improper choice of grain or very poor tillering,or both
...I hate to say it,but there's nothing wrong with a good dense properly chosen grained red oak board,and then properly executed....boards are very easy to make a bow with if you get the right piece...everything's straight and squared edges....boards are for the lazy man ;)
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Considering the fact that I have never seen a red oak bow made from an actual stave with one back ring and every thing then I cant compare it to other woods that are mostly made from staves. So the fact that most beginners use red oak and probably don't find the best grain pattern could Contribute to red oak bows seen broken IMO Has anyone eve actually made a red oak bow from a stave ??!
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I was making bows in the mid 90's and information on design and performance has gotten a lot better. Jim hamm said that you could not make a bow out of a board and I accept that as fact. and then multiple people came along and proved that wrong. more people, more bows makes for better infomation. we all learn from each other
That in its self can be the problem......When someone of bow building significant says "I do it" then it is exceptable, when your average JOE says the same it's ignored till someone like Hamm gives his stamp of approval....people can be like cattle to the trough, can be very irratating. Make your own path, but keep in mind those that have gone before you! ;)
VMB
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The majority if not all of the red oak boards I've seen that broke have been due to operator error and not the woods fault...mostly due to improper choice of grain or very poor tillering,or both
...I hate to say it,but there's nothing wrong with a good dense properly chosen grained red oak board,and then properly executed....boards are very easy to make a bow with if you get the right piece...everything's straight and squared edges....boards are for the lazy man ;)
hey!! I resemble that remark >:D
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I saw a white oak bow in a Native American museum. I think it was in Montreal or the Peabody. White oak is pretty indestructible. Jawge
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I cant think of any wood that would beat hickory in an elasticity race. You can literally tie it in knots.
Greebe its not the species of wood as much as its form that is "looked down" on. Some people are passionate about stave bows and have no time for a board. Just personal preference.
sorry pearls but WO don't break
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Your memory must be fuzzy or you didn't peruse the TBB very closely. Those books are filled with examples of Red Oak bows. I would say those books started the trend.
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Your memory must be fuzzy or you didn't peruse the TBB very closely. Those books are filled with examples of Red Oak bows. I would say those books started the trend.
LOL, there could be some fuzz.
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Grebe, I understand what you are saying and I agree. The whitewoods have been under appreciated in the US in general. Oak, hickory, etc are still called second string woods. The prevalent attitudes are if the bow is not made from osage or yew it is a sub par bow no matter how well is shoots.
Such is not a point of view I share. Osage and yew are excellent woods for sure. However the whitewoods like hickory and oak can hold their own. Credit Comstock and Baker with a revival of interest in their use. Fact is great bows were made by Native Americans from whitewoods long before the 20th Century. Jawge
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I think it would take several pages to answer your question !
The fellows here have hit on some of the issues , but There are a few more !
So as to not bore folks to death I have picked just one .
Red oak was disqualified during one of the first of the board bow arras because this country had not yet suffered a sizable energy scare , with energy seaming to be so cheep and readily available kiln dried boards where way over dried. red oak boards dried to 2-4 % moister have little chance of survival as a bow!
With lemon wood and hickory coming out of the poorer regions they were generally air dried rather than kiln dried which made the difference way out of balance!
When you figure that into the equation with all the other changes that have come along , why wouldn't there be a little miss info out there floating around ?
Have fun and welcome back to the great addiction !!
You can make a bow from most anything just some work better than others !
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I think it would take several pages to answer your question !
The fellows here have hit on some of the issues , but There are a few more !
So as to not bore folks to death I have picked just one .
Red oak was disqualified during one of the first of the board bow arras because this country had not yet suffered a sizable energy scare , with energy seaming to be so cheep and readily available kiln dried boards where way over dried. red oak boards dried to 2-4 % moister have little chance of survival as a bow!
With lemon wood and hickory coming out of the poorer regions they were generally air dried rather than kiln dried which made the difference way out of balance!
When you figure that into the equation with all the other changes that have come along , why wouldn't there be a little miss info out there floating around ?
Have fun and welcome back to the great addiction !!
You can make a bow from most anything just some work better than others !
I agree with you there, but if I remember correctly any wood can be rehydrated even if it isn't to the same MC as when it started. So if this is true then it stands to reason that one could buy a board that looks good in grain ect. but just has to wait a few months or put the board in the bathroom until it stops gaining weight, then reduce the mc till its where it should have been ie 9-10% did i miss anything?
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Grebe, I understand what you are saying and I agree. The whitewoods have been under appreciated in the US in general. Oak, hickory, etc are still called second string woods. The prevalent attitudes are if the bow is not made from osage or yew it is a sub par bow no matter how well is shoots.
Such is not a point of view I share. Osage and yew are excellent woods for sure. However the whitewoods like hickory and oak can hold their own. Credit Comstock and Baker with a revival of interest in their use. Fact is great bows were made by Native Americans from whitewoods long before the 20th Century. Jawge
Hey, glad to know there is someone else that has seen the change in the last 15-20 years. I am going to the lumber mill Monday to pick up something for my next bow build. All they have is the following; Red Oak, Poplar, Hard and Soft Maple are their primary stocked woods while Cherry, Basswood, White Oak, Ash and Walnut are their secondary stocked woods which means more expensive. Any preferences there?
Thanks,
Greebe
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I think it would take several pages to answer your question !
The fellows here have hit on some of the issues , but There are a few more !
So as to not bore folks to death I have picked just one .
Red oak was disqualified during one of the first of the board bow arras because this country had not yet suffered a sizable energy scare , with energy seaming to be so cheep and readily available kiln dried boards where way over dried. red oak boards dried to 2-4 % moister have little chance of survival as a bow!
With lemon wood and hickory coming out of the poorer regions they were generally air dried rather than kiln dried which made the difference way out of balance!
When you figure that into the equation with all the other changes that have come along , why wouldn't there be a little miss info out there floating around ?
Have fun and welcome back to the great addiction !!
You can make a bow from most anything just some work better than others !
That is an interesting observation. I had not heard that before. Maybe that would explain why I had one red oak long bow blow up on me. It seemed as dry as can be. But that was made from a board in the mid 90's.
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i just made an unbacked molle from white oak or somthin like that. not bad, i can't see anything wrong with it. ;D
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I'd go with the white oak and then the red oak. Jawge
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I made a red oak board bow backed with hickory. It was my first fully made bow, tho i'd modified some bows. 70" ktk, as one goal was that it wouldn't break, and i didnt know much. 50 lbs at 28" and it shoots a heavy arrow very close to 150 yds, averaged from both directions, wind to 90°. So i believe oak can make a fine Longbow. But while a Longbow is definately harder to manoeuvre in the brush, it's quieter. He who experiments the most, wins the most.
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"The prevalent attitudes are if the bow is not made from osage or yew it is a sub par bow no matter how well is shoots."
With some folks perhaps, George, but not me... well, not exactly. A good bow is a good bow... and means the bowyer designed and tillered it with the strengths and weaknesses of the wood species as his guide. Osage and yew are not immune to limits. IMO, the best bows push the limits of the wood species used, but don't excede them.
It's only necessary to account for those weaknesses because all bow woods are NOT created equal. Most tree species are virtually worthless for wooden bows. Many are good. Few are great.
If a bow is designed and tillered to suit the capabilities of the wood species without being overbuilt... if it meets my other functional, practical requisites of a 'good bow' like balance, tiller, timing, fit, finish, etc... if it's truly a good bow, I respect if for what it is. I may only consider it a sub-par bow/wood then, because it was unable to suit my design preferences due to its limits.
But the main reasons I don't use red oak boards for bows is... I like to select, cut, and care for my own bow wood, or fully trust another competent bowyer to do so. I would sooner cut a red oak tree to make a bow than use a board selected, cured, and cared for with only static applications like shelving, furnature, etc. in mind. I also prefer my bows short, narrow, fully radiused, and with some character perhaps. Basically, I think red oak boards just have too many detours for me to get to where I want to go ;)
Has osage spoiled me rotten?
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I am with Jawge on the first of those choices being white oak
But after seeing Ryoons poplar bow I am not sure of my second choice !
I don't have scientific proof but wood cells seem to change and not fully hydrate once they reach a certain heat level , I believe that is what is going on when we heat treat the belly of a bow !
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DWS, I think I got my first shooter just about '92-'93. I'm not much for keeping records. I wish I did sometimes. But anyway I made a series of bows. Lots of bows. BL was my wood of choice as it grows fast in yard so I learned on the stuff...cut my bow making teeth on it. I haven't done a BL in a bit. It's a good wood.
Well, I ran out of wood...dry wood. TBB#2 just came out so I headed for Home Depot and got a nice straight grained board that I backed with silk. I still have it and my first BL bow.
So boards for me are not a do all...end all... but they are good when you run out of dry log staves and ya gotta just make a bow.
I like osage too. :)
Jawge