Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Around the Campfire => Topic started by: Buckeye Guy on June 22, 2013, 02:20:44 pm
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I must have lost my mind to open this topic !
With so many younger folks taking an interest in what we do here I think we may need to address a few things about the topic I dislike the most "speed" !
Folks selling bows need a way to compare their equipment so standards to test by have been set forth , AMO has been around for years and is the most recognized by the older archers ! Today we have IBO , and in my skepticism I naturally wonder why we would come out with a different standard to go by ! IBO does not seem to me to be practical , as an example the 5grains per pound of draw weight that they use for arrow speed is low enough to void many warranties on even the most modern of equipment !
For the sake of this forum I feel we should not use IBO standards when doing any kind of comparisons ,in fact many on here don't even like the AMO standard of 9 grains per lbs,
At any rate , just to give you one example lets take a look at some numbers !
A bow with a IBO rating that figures out to 320 fps comes to 245 fps with AMO standards!
Many of the folks on here that want to do comparisons seem to like to use 10grains of arrow per pound of draw weight for our bows and that is fine with me !
Just remember that when we say a bow that flings arrows at or above 180 fps is a really good bow , that is not a comparison to any of the other standards, just what we like to use !
We like marching to the beat of different drums than the rest of the world !
For me personally I go even higher on the arrow weight and that slows the arrow speed even more so I have an arrow traveling over 160 fps it is going to fast in my twisted view !
Slow down and enjoy life !
Life on this earth is way to short to be in a hurry !!
I am sure most of you are saying what do I care , but maybe this will help some to get a better picture of what is going on with all the different numbers, and either be more confused or maybe not !
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I will gladly suffer crippling handshock, noisy limbs, bad set, poor tillering, and a rainbow arc at 10 yds to the target, rather than replace a handmade wooden bow with a modern machine. Fortunately, I have received more than my share of great selfbows from folks on here that I don't need to shoot my own stuff!!! ;D
There is a great quote pinned to the wall in the bowmaking sheds at Twin Oaks:
"At some point, technology becomes not just an aid, but instead a substitute for woodsmanship" -Aldo Leopold
By the time someone finds this forum and signs up, to a greater or lesser degree, they have already turned their backs on gearhead mentality and worshipping at the false idol altar of the Gods of Arrow Speed.
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Well said JW
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dude as long as it's fast enough to hit what i'm aiming at before it falls asleep i'm o.k. with it
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Well, a .45ACP travels at a much slower speed than a 9mm, but no one can dispute the effectiveness of the .45ACP. It served my country well for 100 years.
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At ethical hunting distances no one can tell the difference between an arrow traveling at 130fps of 180fps if they can hit their target with that arrow. In the heat of the hunt you just can't tell. For target shooting it might make a big difference. I hunt some and I shoot 3D some. I use the same bow and arrows(55#@26"-550gr -650gr arrows) for both just so I will know what to expect when I'm ready to draw down on my animal quarry. If I can shoot well at a live animal I can surely shoot well at a foam one.
I shot one of my bows throiugh a chrono one time and was so disappointed in the number I never did it again. ;)
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You folks know I am with you !
Just some of the younger ones ain't figured it out yet !
Guy
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Wild Bill Hickok once said something to the effect that speed isn't important, accuracy is. That coming from a guy who stuck with a cap-n-ball Colt after the Peacemaker came out.
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The trouble with shooting too light of arrows constantly just for the sake of speed is there is catastrophic results even with modern materials being used.ie a bow flying apart.Maybe not right away but in time it will.That extra energy has to go somewhere after release and it might as well go into the arrow.For me to try to make bows that will shoot a 11 to 12 grain per pound draw weight arrow at 10 grain per pound draw weight speed is my goal,and there is a difference in penetration.The good shooting bow has nothing to do with the accuracy.It is just the engine.Having the right arrow with the right comfortable draw weight is.As Pat B said at ethical hunting distances.Everyone will have their own their too.At 20 yards for me it is an ethical chance to shoot at a white tail.Now what if a moose is standing at 35 to 40 yards.Bigger animal,bigger vitals.I will take that chance,and I want that extra weight on my arrow to penetrate deeper.Is that not ethical?The 10 grains per pound of draw weight is still a very good and safe standard.A chronograph is just a tool and that's all for making more efficient bows.It should'nt be a selling point or chest beating display.As what one friend of mine said.If I want my arrow to go faster I'll just pull my bow back farther.
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Beadman
I agree that too light of arrows do often effect a bows life , but never thought about heavy arrows may lengthen a bows life !
Must be why why most of my bows seem to have a life expectancy measured in eons rather than years !! :laugh: :laugh: >:D !!
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I did'nt exactly say that heavier arrows extend a bows life.The bow has to feel efficient in the hand.Seeing what a bow shoots a 10 grain per arrow at is a start and a standard.After a while you can feel in your hand whether a bow is efficient or not,without a chronograph.
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It's all good Ed !!
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Over 200? I don't want it.
I like heavy arrows. Easier to make, cheaper, more durable... plus they stick in targets better.
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dude as long as it's fast enough to hit what i'm aiming at before it falls asleep i'm o.k. with it
I find that my target is less likely to move if its sleeping. >:D
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Nice points by all.I like a fairly heavy arrow also,about 525 to 550 out of my 50 lb bows,seems to work well.As for the IBO standard,it's not because they think that is what you should shoot out of your bow but keeps folks from pushing the envelope to far. If they set no standard you would have folks shooting nitting needle out of 80lb bows.Strictly target shooters that use point of aim or sights,faster/flatter is better,not as much need to judge distance which is a very important part of 3 d shooting if you are using that style of shooting. Most selfbows folks are of a very different mind set especially the ones that mainly do it to hunt. I shoot quite a bit of 3 d also but am doing it for fun and to stay in shape to hunt,lots do it for a much different reason.JW I had forgot about that sign,I put that up several years ago,it about says it all for me. :)
Pappy
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I thought 5 grains per. pound was shooting knitting needles !! :laugh: >:D :laugh:
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Speed is important to me...and speed isnt important to me at the same time...lemme explain....I won't shoot a bow hunting or target shooting that's average or below average cast for its specs(basically anything below 150 fps with 10 gpp arrow)...that's because I am much more accurate with a bow that casts a much flatter arrow,and I get way better penetration...also if I build and design a bow that's well above the average I can make a 45 pound bow shoot like an average 55-60 pound bow,and we all know that a 45 pound bow in general is going to be the easier and more accurate bow to shoot for majority of folks....the chrono for me was just a tool for me to build more efficient bows...and I've tested and shot enough tbru a chrono that I can def tell a difference between a 130 fps bow and a 180 fps bow even at ten yards away and I have to disagree with pat about that...
Now I also dont care about speed to the point of just trying to make the fastest bow ever made on the planet...I've made quite a bit of pretty fast bows, but some of them I'm not super accurate with,and for me its all about balance and give n takes...the speed is only one of several things that need to come together all at once to be a great shooting bow...which is a bow that has nice early draw weight when you start pulling it,and then that draw has to be smooth all the way to anchor without the slightest hint of any stack(I hate stack with a passion),and I believe a stack less bow also helps in speed AND accuracy,then upon release the bow should be so quiet and smooth it shouldn't need silencers,and the arrow needs to come out of the bow with authority and a flat trajectory ...if a bow is excellent in all those mechanics it will be a lil easier to fight our human errors and tendencies in striving for accurate shooting...so speed is only one part of the BIG equation and not the means to an end,which is consistent accuracy...that's what a bow made and designed should strive for
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Chris
Just because you can make a faster bow than some of us you don't have to flaunt it ! >:D :laugh: :laugh:
I have to find my heavy arrows every time I shoot that rocket launcher you made me !! :laugh:
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Wild Bill Hickok once said something to the effect that speed isn't important, accuracy is. That coming from a guy who stuck with a cap-n-ball Colt after the Peacemaker came out.
And .36 cal cap and ball when the .45 Long Colt came out!!!
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Speed is something I really don't care about. The guys who shoot compounds annoy the hell out of me because all they care about is speed And buying the newest bow that shoots 300 fps
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Two of the finest handguns ever in my opinion !
I would also chose the 36 cap and ball over the 45 colt ,but we all ready know I am a little bit different !
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Joe sorry I missed your reply !
Ask them Hi speed bows how fast do they think their bow would shoot your arrow!
Their answer will tell you how much they understand about speed !
Don't let the high speed fellows ahead of you ( keep them on their heels )
I would hate to see ya destroy one of them high speed arrows with a slow and steady arrow !
Have fun !!
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I shoot both selfbows and carbon/fg bows(no whelies tho),and sure speed is nice up to a point.After that its just a number.
A heavy stable arrow is nicer to shoot and penetrate better imo.
If you want to mess with speeddemon compounders arrange a 3D trail competiton in lowlight conditions with shaded targets......
Its hillarious,sure some of those guys ar really good and have no trouble but the rest have a hell of a time even picking the target with all the lighted pins and lightrobbing sights >:D
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dbb
Glad to hear you are having fun with them !
My eyes may be a little to dim to play that game !
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I like messing with my compound-shooting friends.
Its funny though, I think of their "bows" as guns shooting long, light projectiles. Actually one of my friends likes my cane longbow arrows better than the carbons he bought. I wonder why? They are heavier(by a lot), shoot slower, but do penetrate better..
I like compounds, but I like wooden bows a lot more.
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I agree with Blackhawk, I try to get the best I can from the bows I build, I want them smooth, fast and accurate, tho I've never tried to build the fastest bow on the planet, also don't own a chrono and would rather use the $$ on what I need to build bows and hunt instead of trying to prove how fast my bows shoot, bub
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TSS
Glad you enjoy the wooden bows more !
bubby
Sounds good to me !!
Keep up the good work !
Have fun !!
Guy
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I like the SLOW DOWN PART no I enjoy the slowing down part. I think it comes naturally with age. You wake up one morning and you just can see whats really important in life. As soon as you realize whats writen below is the totally true and as soon as you come to terms the the speed of you bows you start enjoying shooting a whole lot more.
I've lived by whats writen below for 22 years.
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Its all about cast, and cast is a function of mass and speed, and also the aerodynamic properties of the arrow. There is an optimum cast for every archery setup, and its not at the extreme max or min of mass or speed. Its somewhere in the middle. Focusing on hitting the cast sweet spot is more important than maximizing your speed. And of course none of it matters if you can't shoot for crap.
But adding speed without decreasing mass is a good thing as it will improve overall cast. But its only good until you start reaching the arrow's stiffness limits. Then you need to go to a heavier arrow, and that will drop your speed back down.
This is what is happening with compounds right now. For a while they were rapidly increasing the speed of them, but now they are reaching the safety limits of the arrows. They've hit a wall where in order to increase speed, they need to increase mass which in turn is lowering the speed and affecting the aerodynamics and penetration as well.
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... And of course none of it matters if you can't shoot for crap...
Hahha thats me!
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... And of course none of it matters if you can't shoot for crap...
Hahha thats me!
I bet I could shoot for crap but I prefer shooting for fun ;) lol
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crooketarrow
I figured you had a good handle on this topic !
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... And of course none of it matters if you can't shoot for crap...
Hahha thats me!
I bet I could shoot for crap but I prefer shooting for fun ;) lol
I never win when I shoot for money, but I bet I'd clean up the competition if we were shooting for crap.
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slackbunny
How much speed have they gained with them fast bows in the last 30 or so years anyway ?
Would you please tell me how fast one of them 350 fps 50lb bow will shoot my 600 grain arrows so I can tell how much I have lost out to them fellows !
With you going to school for engineering I figure you could do the math for me , it should be faster for you to do it since I am a little slow ! >:D :laugh: :laugh:
The one game where speed is on our side is the fast flying targets , my heavy arrows just barely catch up to some of them speed demons !!
Have fun !
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Good catch Joe !!!
You may be correct on that one JW !!!
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slackbunny
How much speed have they gained with them fast bows in the last 30 or so years anyway ?
Would you please tell me how fast one of them 350 fps 50lb bow will shoot my 600 grain arrows so I can tell how much I have lost out to them fellows !
With you going to school for engineering I figure you could do the math for me , it should be faster for you to do it since I am a little slow ! >:D :laugh: :laugh:
The one game where speed is on our side is the fast flying targets , my heavy arrows just barely catch up to some of them speed demons !!
Have fun !
Typical high end bows in the 1980's could shoot a 430 grain arrow right around 220 fps or so. Shooting the same weight arrow, they gained 15-20 fps by the early 90's. By the new millennium they had reached the high 200's, and shortly after they were comfortably shooting over 300. But they seem to have peaked out at that. But that's enough compound talk for me. I got a little sass the last time I got involved in that :P
And I am actually no longer going to school for engineering. Wrote my last exam monday and pending a passing grade (which I'm 99.9% sure I got) I'll graduate in October 8)
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slackbunny
Congratulations on the school work being done !!
Should give you plenty of time to figure out my arrow speed for me !
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At the risk of bringing up this raw subject again I wanted to recend myself saying that the bow has nothing to do with accuracy.It does.For me it's the up and down placement of the arrow that can be different.Not the side to side thing which I correct with the right spined arrow.I personally think after 3 to 4 years of shooting these self bows[yes I'm a slow learner....LOL] that the amount of positive tiller or even tiller and the way the hand is placed on the bow handle or type of handle makes one bow shoot better than another for an individual.Everything else being the same between the bows. I guess it's the harmonics of how each limb tip arrives to it's released destination.If it feels right and is quiet go with it.The subject was supposed to be about speed but accuracy got brought in there too.
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Beadman
Don't ever stop learning , glad to hear of your progress !!
The one thing we know for sure is there are a lot of variables involved !
The biggest is most likely the Human mind !
Glad you are having fun keep it up !!
Guy
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Hey Ed! Ain't it nice to learn something once in a while that don't involve getting hurt in the process? Oh the education lumps I got on my head! :o
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JW
You had to bring that up didn't you !
Wish I could learn something with out pain !!
My school colors are black and blue !!
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Mine are purple and yellow Guy,about the same thing. :) colors after the healing begins. ;) :) :) Beadman I do shoot some better than others,no doubt about it.I can usually tell from the first shot out of a newly built bow weather I am going to like itor not,I can do some tweaking to make them more to my liking but if that first shot don't feel right to me that bow never seems to become one of my favorites. Now back to speeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed ;) ;D ;D
Pappy
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Mine are more purple and green , but most folks don't get hurt bad enough to understand them so I just say black and blue ! :laugh: :laugh: