Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Fred Arnold on June 22, 2013, 09:31:37 am
-
I hear a lot of talk about floor tillering a bow prior to placing a string on it and working the limbs on a tree but I have never seen a good demonstration on proper procedure for the floor tiller process. Do any of you know of a tutorial with good instructions.
My method seems to be adequate but has been self learned and probably could use some fine tuning. As far as that goes I may be going about it completely wrong.
I think sometimes I have a tendency to over tiller using this procedure. Anyone else have a problem with this step or is it just me?
-
I just use the push/pull method as though I am stringing the bow. I place the tip of the bow at my instep of my right foot, hold the handle area with my right hand and my left hand on the other tip. Then pull toward me. You can do that in front of a mirror, if you need to as well. I don't usually need to, though. Not sure if this is right, but the way I do it.
-
With one tip on the floor and the other tip being held in my left hand I push the handle so I can see the bend of the lower limb and feel the tension on it. I then flip it over and check the pther limb. All I want is about 4" of tip movement. If both limbs look and feel similar I gop to the long string. Floor tillering is used to check that you don't have a hinge in the limb before stressing it and that both limbs are at about the same stiffness.
-
I don't 'floor tiller' as such.
IMO trying to eyeball the curve of a bow looking down it is daft when you can just stick it on the tiller with a long string.
I just lean on it to see if it flexes at all.
What I do is rough it out and check the thickness every 6" or so along each limb to make sure they are roughly even. If that looks vaguely ball park, and it flexes, stick it up and see how it actually bends.
'Floor tiller' is a bit of a misnomer to me, floor check is IMO more like it.
Too much work at that stage is IMO asking to end up with an underweight bow. Which is the curse of the newbie >:D
I'm sure some will dissagree... I have no axe to grind, just sayin' what I do.
Del
-
What Del said. A few bows ago I tried to do the 4" floor flex thing. When I strung the bow I was at my intended weight and went under after finishing. Now I do the floor-lean thing, and get to the short string as soon as possible.
-
I agree emphatically with Del. I spend extra time to do my best to establish accurate width profile, thickness, taper, facets, and only push against the floor a couple of times. I want to see just a few inches of movement by pushing pretty hard, then that's it, I'm off to spend my time on the tree. Sometimes I may push each limb against the floor just once, sometimes not at all.
On the tree with the string longer than the bow, you'll stress the limbs no more than by floor tillering. Besides, I prefer the view on the tree where I can better see it, and see the limb's strength relative to one another. I'm big on syncronizing the limbs, the earlier in the tillering process the better, and I'll learn almost nothing about the bows relative limb stength by floor tillering. Put it on the tree and I know precisely which one is stronger and needs worked first... I know with just 2-3" of tip movement.
I too used to spend too much time floor tillering. My bows would more often come in under weight, and I think I was mostly wasting my time. ... or maybe I'm just no good at it :)
-
My procedure has been a combination similar to that stated by Pat B (although I may have been bending more than 4" by applying too much pressure) and I also measure the thickness per Del the cat's explanation. A couple of my osage bows have come in underweight so I need to compensate and try to leave them a bit heavier before stringing.
One of those underweight is an osage T/D sleeve bow that is pulling 45@28 but I plan on piking it and flipping the tips which should easily bring me to the 50#@28 I was shooting for.
Have a few more billets and staves trimmed close to dimensions curing and ready to proceed so I appreciate your input.
-
IMO, floor tillering is a preliminary to long string just to be sure the limbs bend and somewhat evenly.
-
With enough experience you can skip the whole long string process of a tiller stick and tree with a square edge or gizmo..so no more back n forth monotony...with enough practice and bows made you'll be able to go from floor tiller to a 4" brace and be almost dead nuts braced tiller,and sometimes right on the money with no more scraping and be able to exercise it out to full draw..95% of my tillering is all done on the floor,and Im still able to hit intended weights...I'll floor tiller to where I feel I have 5-10 pounds left,and then brace it about 4"...you'd be surprised how fast and easy you can make a decent bow if you just trust your eye and instincts...tiller sticks,trees,squares,n gizmos are overrated and a crutch over complicating making a bow,but are good for those learning to intermediate levels imho.....I'm all about the KISS philosophy ;)
-
One reason I use the push/pull method is that it gives me a sense of where I am poundage wise since that is how I string them I kinda have a feel for the weight. Of course I don't do this till everything is pretty well evened out like limb thickness, etc. I don't need much movement...probably 3 to 5 inches, then to the long string.
-
For me it's pretty much what Chris said. I exclusively tiller on the belt sander and go from a floor tiller to brace. With a trained eye you can skip all the long string stuff. If your brace is good most likely the rest of the bend will be as well. On another note I'm a firm believer in doing what works for YOU.
-
What pat said. Floor tiller gets the limbs bending evenly. Little if any long string. I get it strung up low brace as soon as I can wrestle a string onto it. That's when my tillering really starts. +1 jonw...whatever works, works.
-
I agree with Blackhawk and Jon. I do an aggressive floor tiller and then jump close to full brace. You do have to have a bow or three under Your belt to get the feel tho. Bob
-
Floor tillering one limb at a time works with your arm sort of muscle memorizing the pressure it takes for a certain amount of bend.I take out fllat spots with it too.My bows are'nt on the long string very long.Sort of do it just to check how many pounds it takes for 6 to 8 inches of tip movement at or just below my intended draw weight.Which then it is ready for the short string.At that stage it still is usually 10 pounds above my full draw length weight.I've seen blackhawk do this floor tillering his way and he's got it down I tell ya.[Like he needs encouragement...LOL.]He'll look at both limbs at the same time.It does help to not overstress your limbs prior to the short string.Less set.I know of an older fella who teaches bow making that strings his future bows close to 80# or more,and then at 6 or 7 inches to boot.Says he wants the bow to show him tiller.It does alright....LOL.His bows most times always follow the string a bit even prior to pulling it to full draw.
-
Blackhawk, I agree with you. I don't ever use a long string any more. I just work it down to where I get good, even flex at about 4 or 5 inches and then brace. A lot of the time I just make minot adjustments and/or scrape into weight at this point. But it does take lot's of practice, not something that happens overnight, and my bows are pretty simple.
-
I also floor tiller to low brace. It takes a fair bit of experience to get it right. I still often use a long string for beginners, however.
-
We have to remember that we have 2 basic levels of "bowyers" here, seasoned bowyers who developed their own style over many year and many bows and you have the beginning bowyers who are trying to build a successful bow or improve on the knowledge already obtained. Floor tillering might just be an extra, unnecessary step for the experienced bowyer but it will help the newby gets his limbs bending and together early on in the tillering process instead of ending up with a 30# 60# bow. :o
When I get about 4" of tip movement at floor tiller I not only can see a potential hinge/stiff
area(s) but also know it is time for the tiller tree. As soon as I get about 6" -8"of tip movement on the long string I go to a low brace of about 3"-4". Now I can see not only if the limbs are infact bending evenly and together but also see how the string tracks so I can make those adjustmernts early on in the process if necessary.
I think it is necessary for the new guy to take bow building one step at a time and learn each step of the process so some day they will be able to pick up a stave, picture the bow in that stave and have the confidence to successfully tiller that bow. Once they reach that stage they will have developed a stryle of their own or at least be able to develop a style they are comfortable with. This wood bow building stuff isn't a competition, there is no win or loose, no time limits. Build at your own rate and with your own style. The goal is building wood bows. Pretty simple! But, just because it is simple, though doesn't mean it is easy. ;)
-
Methinks that floor tillering speeds up the tillering process considerably(well, I tiller with a pocketknife and hand plane)- if it don't bend at all, take a few strokes with the hand plane. Once it bends mess with the tiller sticks.
-
Accurate floor tillering to low brace requires skill and experience. Being able to accurately judge the amount of bend takes time. Yes... it does shorten the tillering process.
-
Accurate floor tillering to low brace requires skill and experience. Being able to accurately judge the amount of bend takes time. Yes... it does shorten the tillering process.
Accurate is a key word.
Once the limb bends, put it on a tiller tree...
I think a tiller tree makes it easier to see stiff places, right?
-
I do the same way Blackhawk describes, I do put the bow on the tiller tree when it is first being pulled to full draw. I am usually at about 24" and my draw weight when I string the bow from floor tiller, I check the tiller at 24" and then just use a 4" straight edge to finish.
-
If we actually think about it floor tillering it is just doing it by looking along the length of the limb and judgeing the weight by hand rather than a scale.
Now looking along the limb is a good trick and one that I use (but when its on the tiller).
It's good because it foreshortens the limb which accentuates the bend which is especially good at small deflections. Same way as looking along an arrow will show the wiggles.
Feeling the weight by hand is ok if you can do it, but like a long string it can be deceptive (IMO, especially for a newbie).
It's about choosing the methods that work best for you. I'm going to try tillering my next bow with a sack over my head and wearing scuba gear >:D
Del
-
We have to remember that we have 2 basic levels of "bowyers" here, seasoned bowyers who developed their own style over many year and many bows and you have the beginning bowyers who are trying to build a successful bow or improve on the knowledge already obtained. Floor tillering might just be an extra, unnecessary step for the experienced bowyer but it will help the newby gets his limbs bending and together early on in the tillering process instead of ending up with a 30# 60# bow. :o
When I get about 4" of tip movement at floor tiller I not only can see a potential hinge/stiff
area(s) but also know it is time for the tiller tree. As soon as I get about 6" -8"of tip movement on the long string I go to a low brace of about 3"-4". Now I can see not only if the limbs are infact bending evenly and together but also see how the string tracks so I can make those adjustmernts early on in the process if necessary.
I think it is necessary for the new guy to take bow building one step at a time and learn each step of the process so some day they will be able to pick up a stave, picture the bow in that stave and have the confidence to successfully tiller that bow. Once they reach that stage they will have developed a stryle of their own or at least be able to develop a style they are comfortable with. This wood bow building stuff isn't a competition, there is no win or loose, no time limits. Build at your own rate and with your own style. The goal is building wood bows. Pretty simple! But, just because it is simple, though doesn't mean it is easy. ;)
x 2
-
This is an area I definitly need to improve on and still trying to get my own process figured out. I think I have tried to get too nice a bend and ended up with too little wood to make corrections once I am getting close to finished tiller :'( Like Pat said, 30# 60# bow
Do any of you guys just bend it on your knee until it looks about right for the string?
-
Great tread, I always love to see how differently people go at a thing. I'm from the beginner section, one year into making bows ;) So don't take this as advice, just my two cents.
Right now, I tend to leave out the long string, cause it misled me everytime, producing a bend that had little to do with the one of the short string.
Much better, I feel, is the impression of the floor tiller. But I think it is important to press the tip towards the other one, as a string would,and not pull it rectangular to the limb. I hold the bow upright and press down. When I feel the limbs are in balance, I string it. Then I do corrections at brace, without pulling. When it looks good at brace, I find I usually have to do very little for a good full draw.
-
Like Pat B said.People are going to do what they feel comfortable with.
-
I am a couple of years into this bow building stuff. I have built fifty or so now (still a rookie on this site!). I realize that my tillering process has changed a great deal. I floor tiller and go to low brace as soon as possible now, but early on I used the long string. One thing that I did early on, was to check the floor tiller on lots of finished bows. I got into a habit of doing that until I got a feel for the weight. I think this helped me a lot. I developed a feel for limb strength and sense of when it was time to brace a bow. When you are brand new at this, you really have no feel for how strong a bow limb is, so the long string is probably needed. It is a strange learning curve in learning to make wooden bows. I think you just have to tune in to the good advice on this site and then make a few and find what works for you.
-
Diddo for me too.Great point.hrhodes
-
I am a couple of years into this bow building stuff. I have built fifty or so now (still a rookie on this site!). I realize that my tillering process has changed a great deal. I floor tiller and go to low brace as soon as possible now, but early on I used the long string. One thing that I did early on, was to check the floor tiller on lots of finished bows. I got into a habit of doing that until I got a feel for the weight. I think this helped me a lot. I developed a feel for limb strength and sense of when it was time to brace a bow. When you are brand new at this, you really have no feel for how strong a bow limb is, so the long string is probably needed. It is a strange learning curve in learning to make wooden bows. I think you just have to tune in to the good advice on this site and then make a few and find what works for you.
Really like that idea, thanks!
-
DuBois....yes on the knee bending. Tiller trees and long strings and scales and gizmos are a recent addition to the toolbox for me. When I started we bent them across the knee to check the tiller. Got them pretty close to right that way. Most were shorter bows without a lot of recurves and such. Using all the various tillering aids became more important as the length of my bows increased and the designs became more advanced. I think the tiller on my bows probably improved as I added these tools. If you think of about all the various groups of peoples across the globe throughout history, each had a particular design or type of bow, a favored wood type, and undoubtedly an approach to constructing them that might have differed greatly from some other group. All were able to build weapons that were ideally suited to their use environment. Amusing that it's still largely that way today. We southern and mid westerners continue to brag on our Osage bows, the west coasters got their Pacific Yew and Vine Maple beauties, and across the pond the ELB's reign supreme. The approaches to building our bows is obviously as varied as the styles themselves.
-
I wanted to take the time to thanks all of you for your input. It looks as though my approach was somewhat correct but I had never seen a good explanation of how it should be done and had been second guessing myself.
Also learned a few other techniques that I will add to what I've currently been using. I especially like the idea of floor testing other bows in the proper weight range to get the proper feel before going to the tree and limiting the use of the long string as I've never felt it told me much of anything other than whether the limbs were bending evenly. bending
-
I floor tiller just to get the limbs bending even and about the same in weight, then long string[string just long enough to fit] on a tiller stick out to about brace,then brace and go to the tree. I have ran into to many problems over the years when I get them to close to drawfloor tillering, before really looking them over,problems that could have been taken care of early but can't later on without missing weight. Little slower the way I do it but I rarely miss weight and I figured out long ago it ant a road race. ;) :) :) :) Lots of ways to skin a cat,try different ways and see what works for you,if tiller turns out nice and you are making weight most of the time then that's a good thing,if not you may want to adjust the way you are doing it. :) :) No real right or wrong way on a lot of this stuff. :)
Pappy
-
I floor tiller to about 3 inches and then long string tiller to around 10 inches of string movement...not tip movement ...string movement...all the while looking for a good bend and 5# over target weight (or so) which reduces the stave sufficiently to be strung and then ...I string it. It is a process with a plan...I like plans. I almost never use...so pardon me...I got up early today. More on my site. :) Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/index.html