Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Around the Campfire => Topic started by: Squirrelslayer on June 02, 2013, 07:53:18 pm
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Well everyone its been a year since I started trying to make bows. I started out where most of you probably did with a sapling and a bit of rope and a make shift arrow. I then found some oak fence panels and probably wasted 7 before I actually learnt about tillering and then another 2 months until I acctualy made a tillering stick. Sometime in October I started a bow with pine backed with mahogany (a terrible combination) that bow didn't break it jut got really whip ended. Then came my Christmas tree bow which broke after getting to brace hight. At the start of April this year I acctualy managed to make a hickory bow that I was fairly happy with until it broke after being over stressed. I only recently made my first longbow from a laminate of hickory, osage and lemon wood im now starting a hickory shortbow for my friends sister. It's been a great year and I know I have taken a long time to get here but I now feel that I can call myself a bowyer. I've still got a lot to learn about the word of bow making but since ive been on the PA forum I've learned so much from all of you. Thanks to all. SS
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How sweet.
Now about that compound bow you started a thread about last week? Sell it and donate the money to a needy family. Otherwise get lost!
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I wasn't arrogant enough to call myself a 'bowyer' until I was making bows well enough that people wanted to buy them.
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Lol! :laugh:
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Kinda harsh words to a sixteen year old kid. Keep your compound kid ,I own laminated bows and guns and shoot them all it ok to have a diverse interest. As far as the bowyer comment ,call yourself whatever you want everyone has they're own standards as to what a bowyer is, to me it's one who makes bows, plain and simple. Just don't call yourself a professional bowyer cause that means you stop learning cause you think you've got it all figured out. In the mean time try to take whats said with a grain of salt and a bit of humor, and stay on a honorable course. Art
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I started making bows almost 4 years ago when I found an arrow laying in the middle of the road if it wasn't for that I might not give a damn about archery right now lol
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To me a decent bow without it breaking. I wouldn't call myself a professional bowyer and I will probably still be making some amateurish bows for years to come. SS
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To me a decent bow without it breaking.
+1
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Kinda harsh words to a sixteen year old kid. Keep your compound kid ,I own laminated bows and guns and shoot them all it ok to have a diverse interest. As far as the bowyer comment ,call yourself whatever you want everyone has they're own standards as to what a bowyer is, to me it's one who makes bows, plain and simple. Just don't call yourself a professional bowyer cause that means you stop learning cause you think you've got it all figured out. In the mean time try to take whats said with a grain of salt and a bit of humor, and stay on a honorable course. Art
I wouldn't say that is what professional means. Professional just means that you are getting paid on a regular basis for it. It doesn't mean you stop learning or improving. It also doesn't mean you are any good. There are plenty of professionals out there who are pretty terrible what they do.
So if squirrelslayer started making a bow a month and selling it, then he would be professional, regardless of how good those bows actually are.
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I would consider a bowyer to be one who makes bows. Note the noun -bowyer. Now, if you want to describe the level of success you would say something along the lines of good/bad/terrible/successful/masterful/inexperienced/naive/perfectionistic/ect. Use adjectives to describe the noun. A cop is a cop even if one can't save your life no matter how hard he tries and the other is so good he can save your life without trying. Both are the same noun, doesn't mean that they are of similar skill levels. Just something to consider. I think that may be a bit harsh roy, although i don't like compounds I certainly wont tell someone to sell something that they bought.(ok, maybe if its something that i want to buy from them ::) ) Basically he posted this in the right section and hes thanking us all for our help albeit a bit harsh.
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Like a Moth to a Flame... Damn It! ???
I've been learning for a little over over two years, or is it almost three?
Have 22 shooters under my belt, some look pretty nice.
I do Not call myself a Bowyer and will not for some time.
I still have a Lot to learn.
-gus
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it's like in martial atrs, people think that a "black belt" makes you a master when in fact that is where the learning really starts
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it's like in martial atrs, people think that a "black belt" makes you a master when in fact that is where the learning really starts
+1
The old saying is that a black belt is really just a experienced beginner. Can't even say how much progress one makes after they achieve it and really start to train.
Same goes for bowyery... I am a practiced beginner, and I have many shooters under my belt. I've even sold two or three, but I'm a long way from a "bowyer" in the sense that I see it as.
Jon
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Jon just the jump from first dan to second is a big learning curve if you have an old time sensi
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Jon just the jump from first dan to second is a big learning curve if you have an old time sensi
Sure is.. Working on my third dan now. After I achieved shodan its amazing the progress I started making.. Maybe since I felt more free to express my own style more and started exploring different aspects of martial arts.
Jon
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cool Jon, 2nd in kenpo and tae kwon do and heavily trained in judo and Chinese kempo,
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cool Jon, 2nd in kenpo and tae kwon do and heavily trained in judo and Chinese kempo,
Very nice.. I've been training shotokan for 12 years and practicing Muay Thai the past 4. Ive enjoyed using the two to benifit eachother. Ive dabbled a bit in in BJJ but not for long. I gotta get into groundwork trainging. Martial arts has definitely had an impact on me as a person and are definitely a part of my lifestyle.
But I'm done hijacking this thread. >:D >:D
Jon
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Man, I miss Shotokan.
Looking forward to getting back in when my boys are old enough...
And Dreading the first three months back at the same time...
Along with the knowing smile from Sensei Redwood.
-gus
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I've trained in Wado-Ryu for over 40 years and I never told anybody I was Udansha unless someone asked.
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Wow massive Hijack............... retired(injury) sport jujitsu practioner. For me kata was something I sucked at, so my fat self stuck to grappling arts.
Matt
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The way I see it I've been fishing since I could walk. I go fishing a few times a week. I'm a fisherman. (an avid fisherman)
Lets say I go fishing and take a friend who has never wet a line before. They fumble around with some all in one kit from walmart and manage to tie on a bait and get it in the water barely......They are now a fisherman as well. They are someone who fishes. Very much a beginner but still they are a fisherman. Who am I to say when they are skilled enough to call themselves a fisherman?
Same with bows. I would consider Pappy an experienced bowyer. Give Joe Shmo a draw knife and a stave and he is now a beginner bowyer.
Just my opinion. Everybody has one.
bow·yer
[boh-yer] Show IPA
noun
a maker or seller of archers' bows.
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Origin:
1150–1200; Middle English bogiere, bouwyer, bouer; see bow2 , -yer
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2013.
Cite This Source
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Link To Bowyer
Collins
World English Dictionary
bowyer (ˈbəʊjə) [Click for IPA pronunciation guide]
— n
a person who makes or sells archery bows
Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition
2009 © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins
Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009
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This thread reminds me of something my father once told me. I was a Junior in high school (and for those counting that was about 42 years ago and yes, I am now a couple moons this side of 60) and had finished the required drivers ed class, gone down to DMV and passed the drivers test and written test. I had finally got my drivers license. Back at home, my father and I was sitting out under the shade tree and I proudly showed him my drivers license. He took it, looked it over and gave it back to me. His only comment was "Now all you need to do is learn to drive." At the time, I thought it was the dumbest thing I had ever heard. It took several years, but eventually I came to realize the wisdom in that statement. To this day, I have not forgotten. Yes, I was legally a driver, but it took many years before I really was a "driver".
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This thread reminds me of something my father once told me. I was a Junior in high school (and for those counting that was about 42 years ago and yes, I am now a couple moons this side of 60) and had finished the required drivers ed class, gone down to DMV and passed the drivers test and written test. I had finally got my drivers license. Back at home, my father and I was sitting out under the shade tree and I proudly showed him my drivers license. He took it, looked it over and gave it back to me. His only comment was "Now all you need to do is learn to drive." At the time, I thought it was the dumbest thing I had ever heard. It took several years, but eventually I came to realize the wisdom in that statement. To this day, I have not forgotten. Yes, I was legally a driver, but it took many years before I really was a "driver".
Aaah... with age comes the luxury of wisdom. Well said.
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I wasn't arrogant enough to call myself a 'bowyer' until I was making bows well enough that people wanted to buy them.
Does it really matter if he wants to call him self a bowyer or not ?? I don't think that was necessary at all. Any one who atleast attempts to make a bow is a bowyer in my book.
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Yeah, if you've made a bow, you were a bowyer.
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I wasn't arrogant enough to call myself a 'bowyer' until I was making bows well enough that people wanted to buy them.
Does it really matter if he wants to call him self a bowyer or not ?? I don't think that was necessary at all. Any one who atleast attempts to make a bow is a bowyer in my book.
Is a kid that makes a couple of bows outta willow twigs and binder twine a bowyer?
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I wasn't arrogant enough to call myself a 'bowyer' until I was making bows well enough that people wanted to buy them.
Does it really matter if he wants to call him self a bowyer or not ?? I don't think that was necessary at all. Any one who atleast attempts to make a bow is a bowyer in my book.
Is a kid that makes a couple of bows outta willow twigs and binder twine a bowyer?
That's making a bow isn't it ??!
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Lol! By the willow pole and twine standard, not only was I a bowyer at the age of six, but so was just about every kid I knew! I still don't know if I qualify as a bowyer. I don't really care. But I have to wonder is it more arrogant to call yourself a bowyer or to tell someone else that they are not. I'm certainly guilty of the latter charge to some degree. I reckon I need to work on that. If someone wants to call themself a bowyer, I guess that I shouldn't really care if they are or not. It doesn't affect me in the slightest. This has kinda made me think a little anyway. Josh
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Lol! By the willow pole and twine standard, not only was I a bowyer at the age of six, but so was just about every kid I knew! I still don't know if I qualify as a bowyer. I don't really care. But I have to wonder is it more arrogant to call yourself a bowyer or to tell someone else that they are not. I'm certainly guilty of the latter charge to some degree. I reckon I need to work on that. If someone wants to call themself a bowyer, I guess that I shouldn't really care if they are or not. It doesn't affect me in the slightest. This has kinda made me think a little anyway. Josh
I agree with all of that, I really dont care if I am considered a bowyer or if anyone else considers them self a bowyer. I make bows as I hobby and that's it !!
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I started playing hockey when I was 4 years old. I could barely skate, the puck felt like a lead weight, and if I took my stick off the ice to wind up for a shot I would fall down. But I was a hockey player. You don't need to be a Gretzky or a Crosby to be hockey player. You don't need to play in a certain league, you don't need to be any good, and you certainly don't need the approval of a bunch of guys on the internet. The kids just learning, the old guys in the local beer league, and the professionals in the NHL are all hockey players. If you play hockey, you are a hockey player.
Its the same for bowyery. If you make bows, you are a bowyer.
Now that I think about it, the only requirement that I see is that you kind of need to be doing it on a regular basis. You can't make one bow, one time, never do it again, and still call yourself a bowyer. But if you've got a couple under your belt, and you are continuing to build and learn then I would say you are a bowyer.
Now lets remember that just because you are a bowyer doesn't mean you are any good at. I think some guys have attached an almost mystical meaning the word, setting standards that most people will never reach.
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The apprenticeship for Medieval bowyers was 7 years. I believe a modern Journeyman has the same apprenticeship? Seems about right to me. I didn't feel comfortable with bow making until I'd been doing it on a regular basis for about 4 or 5 years. I didn't really feel like a 'bowyer' until somebody asked me to make them a custom bow. At that point, I felt like what I was doing was good enough that a complete stranger was willing to part with their hard earned money for it. I also felt more like a bowyer after I stopped counting how many bows I'd made.
It's subjective. Anyone can call themselves whatever they'd like... who am I to judge? But, the above criteria is what I feel I need to call myself a bowyer. I think 'bowyer' is maybe like 'welder.' I have a nice Lincoln MIG welder, and I can weld, but I'm not a welder. I have a buddy who is a welder, and he doesn't think I'm a welder either!
Early on in this journey, I was a bow maker. Now I feel like I've earned the title of bowyer. However, to each his own!
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I can see that as a good set of personal benchmarks. It's not something I have thought a whole lot about really as I don't do it for title and prestige or occupation. The welder bit was a good analogy to some extent. However, it overlooks the fact that there are established guidelines used to determine what level a welder is. Journeyman and all that. There are no such guidelines for bowyers or bowyer hopefuls. I'm certainly not qualified to tell anyone else wether they are or not. So in the end, I'll just do what I love and leave the question of title to others to worry about. Josh
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Bow making is my occupation. I've been making bows since 2004, but I've only been doing it as my full time occupation for the last 1.5 years. I struggled with 'Bowyer.' At what point do I give myself that title?
There is an organisation in the UK, called The Worshipful Company of Bowyers. For anyone interested, do a google search and check out their criteria for earning the title of 'Bowyer.' I think it's www.bowyers.com
I was apprenticed. I also have an apprentice. Having an apprentice makes me a better bow maker. I give him tasks, challenge him, and gently guide him as best I can. I also provide him with material, and help him gather his own. I also teach complete beginners how to successfully make a bow on their first try, and that also makes me a better bow maker. All this being said, the term 'Bowyer' is only a term I feel I have just recently earned.
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I haven't been here for long and I have seen some of the crazy stuff SS has put on here, but I think almost everyone on here has missed the message he posted the big "THANK YOU" at the end of his post.
I do not deserve the thank you as I have not done or put anything on here to help anyone yet, however a lot of people have put some very valuable information on here and I would also like to ALSO say Thank You for the information. But for such a self proclaimed "nice group" you are fast to jump down a persons throat, and not even take the Thank you for what it is.
Me, I'd still like to hang out here learning all I can, and use the information to make a better bow next time, and maybe share things I have learned.
I hope you all have a great weekend.
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I haven't been here for long and I have seen some of the crazy stuff SS has put on here, but I think almost everyone on here has missed the message he posted the big "THANK YOU" at the end of his post.
I do not deserve the thank you as I have not done or put anything on here to help anyone yet, however a lot of people have put some very valuable information on here and I would also like to ALSO say Thank You for the information. But for such a self proclaimed "nice group" you are fast to jump down a persons throat, and not even take the Thank you for what it is.
Me, I'd still like to hang out here learning all I can, and use the information to make a better bow next time, and maybe share things I have learned.
I hope you all have a great weekend.
Yeah. pretty major hijack on this one. Hope SS don't mind. As far as some of the comments on here, Momma told me if you can't say nothing nice then keep your fingers off the keyboard :o ::) :-X ....or something like that.
As far as the current discussion, I can see it both ways. I guess some people put more prestige behind the word than others. I certainly don't sign my checks as "Mark Smith, Boyer" and I'm sure SS doesn't either. I think there are plenty of guys on here like adb that can but I don't see why a young guy like SS can't call himself a bowyer because he makes bows. I work in a courthouse and kids go down the hall to visit the sheriffs dept and come back with plastic badges thinking they are cops. Next time one comes thru I'm gonna chew the little guy out and tell him he ain't no cop. haha Yesterday was the 4th anniversary of my wedding and we are having our first kid around New Years. Is that long enough for me to be called a husband??
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Yesterday was the 4th anniversary of my wedding and we are having our first kid around New Years. Is that long enough for me to be called a husband??
Still just an amateur husband though. Although I'm not sure being a professional husband is legal... :P
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Happy Anniversary Marks and congrats on the new baby . I get my 1st grand kid next month.
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I have a very difficult time keeping my big mouth shut when a young fellow like squirrelslayer makes a post declaring himself a bowyer, after only making one bow that has survived, and doing that with somebody else's help. Thank you or no thank you. This young man continues to leave me scratching my head. Sorry, I have a difficult time letting statements like that slide.
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I have a very difficult time keeping my big mouth shut when a young fellow like squirrelslayer makes a post declaring himself a bowyer, after only making one bow that has survived, and doing that with somebody else's help. Thank you or no thank you. This young man continues to leave me scratching my head. Sorry, I have a difficult time letting statements like that slide.
If he chooses to be arrogant then so be it, he wont improve his standings with you. Truth be told I used to be similar, I often would say that I am something when I've only just started. So long as he did not intend to be arrogant or conceited then i think it's fine. He's what, 16? would you say you were the amazing person you are now? I'm sure most of us have gone through our weaknesses at one point or another, this may be his. I know I've struggled in the past, only through other people giving me chance after chance and by helping to correct my mistakes was I able to become a reasonable human who isn't the MOST annoying on the face of the planet ;)
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Posted from my place of zen:
Squiggle, thank you for sticking around and taking the lumps that come with learning. I appreciate the progress you've made in listening in the time since I've joined.
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Happy Anniversary Marks and congrats on the new baby . I get my 1st grand kid next month.
Thanks.
I'm out on this convo. I think we are about as far as we are gonna get. ;) I wish you all well and good luck SS on your future "bowmaking" ;)
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Ed brooks I think you hit it on the head. The thank you was missed. Unfortunately I think the kid has unitentionaly made himself a target to people who want to lash out. Honestly I can't say I'm to concerned with what anyone wants to call themselves, what they think they are or what they want to be. Live and let live is my motto. I can say I'm disappointed in the way some members choose to respond to a kid and can only hope that they're not truly that rude or crass in day to day life and maybe they were just having a bad communication day. I personally feel that it's the privilege of the elders in society to guide the youth and try to remember that when communicating.
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To whom it may concern;
For one week only, for $9.99 I will issue anybody that will participate by sending me a check, a Certified, Bowyers Certificate. Please hurry! This is a one time offer. O:)
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Where can I send the post dated check mullet ;D
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To whom it may concern;
For one week only, for $9.99 I will issue anybody that will participate by sending me a check, a Certified, Bowyers Certificate. Please hurry! This is a one time offer. O:)
;D ;D ;D
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But for such a self proclaimed "nice group" you are fast to jump down a persons throat, and not even take the Thank you for what it is.
Me, I'd still like to hang out here learning all I can, and use the information to make a better bow next time, and maybe share things I have learned.
I hope you all have a great weekend.
+2
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Where does Squirrelslayer mention about been an "accomplished Bowyer" If I missed it please point it out. This definiton about been a Bowyer is kind of like been an artist using acrylic paints on canvas. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder weather you do art just for fun does not mean you are not an artist. The art could be a mess of scribble on the canvas, just like some bows I built, very rough with sanding marks and gouges and bad tillering. Do I call myself a "Bowyer"....NOPE..! I'am to humble for that even though I have been playing with wood most of my life. There will always be something to learn.
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Awww geeez,, You're welcome squirrelslayer,,,and I'm real sorry. ::) :'(
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Ever notice how Squirrel Nuts will start a thread that inevitably will turn to some kind of controversy, and then just sit back and watch while the rest of us mature adults squable with each other?
He's probably sitting there with a big smug grin on his face... :)
Anyway, I still want to see some full draw pics of your ELB there Squirrely, and then I'll believe that you are a bowyer ;)
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ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!!!! so many sucked in again !!!!!!!!!!!! Do what ya do and enjoy. Bow building 7yrs ,jiu-jitsu 5yrs Husband 19yrs(2xs) MASTER of nothing. But we plug along. Plug along young skwerl plug along.
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I stand corrected! I checked out the link adb posted and there is indeed at least one guild with established rules in place that must me be met to earn the title "bowyer". I still don't really care wether or not anyone considers me to be a bowyer. But now I do know that there are a few people that not only care, but have went to great lengths to earn the title. I can respect that and can definitely see how it would be resented for someone who might have one bow under his belt (we never have seen the full draw) to call himself by a title that they have worked years to obtain. Again, I have no interest in the guild or worry about the title bit, but i now have a better understanding of those that do. This thread has been an eye opener for me. Josh
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But for such a self proclaimed "nice group" you are fast to jump down a persons throat, and not even take the Thank you for what it is.
Me, I'd still like to hang out here learning all I can, and use the information to make a better bow next time, and maybe share things I have learned.
I hope you all have a great weekend.
For 11 months out of his first year he has been a pain in the butt. That's why everyone is quick to jump on him. Sometimes negative replies are well deserved.
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But for such a self proclaimed "nice group" you are fast to jump down a persons throat, and not even take the Thank you for what it is.
Me, I'd still like to hang out here learning all I can, and use the information to make a better bow next time, and maybe share things I have learned.
I hope you all have a great weekend.
For 11 months out of his first year he has been a pain in the butt. That's why everyone is quick to jump on him. Sometimes negative replies are well deserved.
and have never seen a picture posted of anything but a compound by either squirrel.
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Hmmm, let's see, young pup, posts that stir things up, doesn't 'respect' his elders, not much common sense, seems to start controversy...
nope, never seen anything like that before from a youngster...
welcome to the rest of the interwebs folks...
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But for such a self proclaimed "nice group" you are fast to jump down a persons throat, and not even take the Thank you for what it is.
Me, I'd still like to hang out here learning all I can, and use the information to make a better bow next time, and maybe share things I have learned.
I hope you all have a great weekend.
For 11 months out of his first year he has been a pain in the butt. That's why everyone is quick to jump on him. Sometimes negative replies are well deserved.
and have never seen a picture posted of anything but a compound by either squirrel.
B***S***
Lookie here-
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,40271.0.html
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Ever notice how Squirrel Nuts will start a thread that inevitably will turn to some kind of controversy, and then just sit back and watch while the rest of us mature adults squable with each other?
He's probably sitting there with a big smug grin on his face... :)
Anyway, I still want to see some full draw pics of your ELB there Squirrely, and then I'll believe that you are a bowyer ;)
Haha. Im sorry I haven't been able to get pictures posted up. Hopefully by the end of the week ill have a whole lot of F/D pics up of my ELB I also have another little surprise for all of you. And when I say suprise your going to think im even more nuts than I am now.
Awww geeez,, You're welcome squirrelslayer,,,and I'm real sorry. ::) :'(
Forgiven.
As for the bowyer comment im sorry for all the controversy it's caused and I guess we all have different opinions on what makes a bowyer. So can I please end what I started and ask that we all agree to disagree? This was meant to be a thank you thread for all the help and advice given to me over the past months scice I joined but only a small handful of people saw that. SS
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Awe Man...
You mean I sharpened my Pitch Fork for nothing?
Now what am I gonna do with all these Torches?
I have to say that which ever side of the Exercise Wheel you come down on, the Lad keeps coming back to PA for more.
For that alone, I Commend you Squirly.
-gus
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I got on his youtube channel and apparently he is real. He has a few bow videos on there. I've been waiting on someone to fess up to making a fake name. He put a youtube link on his mahogany bow thread.
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I'd like to say I'm sorry for my post on here, if I had known how bad this is getting, I would have kept my fingers quite. Nothing but bows & arrows from now on.
Again I'm sorry. Hope you all have a great day. Ed
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I'd like to say I'm sorry for my post on here, if I had known how bad this is getting, I would have kept my fingers quite. Nothing but bows & arrows from now on.
Again I'm sorry. Hope you all have a great day. Ed
What are you talking about. That was a great post. Very respectful and well worded. Nothing to be sorry about.
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I'd like to say I'm sorry for my post on here, if I had known how bad this is getting, I would have kept my fingers quite. Nothing but bows & arrows from now on.
Again I'm sorry. Hope you all have a great day. Ed
What are you talking about. That was a great post. Very respectful and well worded. Nothing to be sorry about.
Marks, I put this up here and then found out SS has a double on here too. Me being new I should have just not said anything, about stuff I know nothing about. The last thing I want to do on here is cause any problems with anyone. Ed