Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Raptard on May 10, 2013, 11:30:22 pm
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First off, I'm new to the site so if I'm doing anything wrong please tell me.
I have started my first r"real" bow recently and would like some feedback/criticism/advice. I have made bow out of sticks before when I was younger, but this is the first time I am making a bow from a stave (cut down the tree and everything). I am making a 60" mulberry flat-bow with a stave that is a bit to narrow, which is why I'm using it for my first bow.
The dimensions are (hopefully) going to be about 1.5" wide mid-limb tapering down to 3/4" at the nocks, limbs 1" thick tapering to 1/2" at the nocks, 4" long handle being about 1"wide and 1 3/4" thick, and 60" nock to nock.
(also be forewarned, my camera is not the best and the dig. screen is broken so don't expect masterpieces =])
http://imgur.com/a/Iz84x
also, i've been looking around and noticed i have no clue how to properly link photos ^ so if anyone would like to tel me how, that would be great!.
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that's a nice piece of wood ya got there my biggest advice is take it slow there's no reason to rush. Another thing thickness measurements don't need to be taken on the working limbs they will determine there own thickness during tillering mulberry is a very underrated bow wood I think it's fun to work with and makes a hell of a bow good luck with it
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ok thank you, i was saying the thickness because that is the thinnest it gets so i was going to try sticking to that
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Contrary to popular belief, many of us do not actually live in here. Mind you I have a cot in the back with a pile of dirty blankets and a hidden stash of 12 yr old scotch, but never mind that. Sometimes you gotta let people find your thread and read it.
Judging from what I saw, you are off to a rollicking start. Your fadeouts look a little short, but they are not horribly abrupt.
Secondly it looks like you are a homebrewer. Many of us are. Doing it yourself is a lifestyle.
Thirdly, with the narrow dimensions you will not want to pull this 60" bow much past 26 inches. Typically you can get away with double your draw length plus 10", but each species of wood dictates how wide it should be...with mulberry, I prefer about 1 3/4 wide for safety. You might end up with a little more set than one would want, but so what? Not every bow gets to be a star, make something serviceable and then learn from it so the next one is better!
Lastly, what the hey is a raptard? A slow hawk?
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I guess i forgot to mention that these lines are cut out lines, im giving myself a bit of room to work with, just in case.
also, the reason it's only 1.5 is because that's how thin it gets on the "upper" limb
lastly, yes it is a slow hawk.
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also, any advice on how to tell how far back I will be able to safely draw this? I know my personal draw is 28" but I'm not sure how to tell how far I can safely pull it back.
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If you abandon the idea of a stiff handle, you got plenty of wood for a 28" draw. Another great advantage to a bendy handled bow is that they are easier to check tiller with. A bendy handle bow is supposed to come in with a circular tiller...in other words, if you photograph the bow partially or fully drawn the curbe will be part of a circle. Stiff handled bows are more eliptical in their tiller. And that can be a toughie to pull off from my experience.
As for a slow hawk, I have one of those. She had contracted West Nile Virus in the wild, a nasty disease that has negative effects on the neurological processes of the bird. She was in difficult shape as it was, but then got hit by two cars in quick successoin along a hiway in southern Utah. She recovered i a rehab facility, but will never regain full flight capability. So instead of being a very dangerous and high strung kill-happy predator, she is content to sit on glove and watch the world go by. Her name is Phoenix, the ferruginous hawk. 5 lbs of "almmost eagle".
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hmm well how would a bendy handle affect the shooting? from my understanding there is a lot of handshock in those. also, since i have already by this time cut out the entire bow from the stave, would i still be able to pull it off?
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raptard, bendy handle bows only contain hand shock if the tiller is off or if the limb timing is off. If its done right there is little to no hand shock and also allows you to get a shorter stave to still yield a long draw.
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well that's one question down, but I didn't know you could make a bendy handle flatbow & since i already cut it out, could i just tiller it to bend in the handle? or should i just keep it stiff now?
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I would agree on the working handle. It doesn't have to bend a great deal - one of my best bows is a mulberry. 1.5 wide in the middle 1/3 of the bow and then tapering to 1/2" at the tips. I can just feel the handle bending when I reach 27" of draw. Only about 1/2" of set and very smooth shooter. I know there are some good build alongs with this style of bow on the tg site. Good luck on what you decide.
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whatever, guess I'll try, whats the worse that can happen?
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OK, I am back, I had a huge AP test and I have been putting off the bow to study :-\ . I have now got a "bow shaped" bow, though the lower limb is a bit thick & the upper a bit weak :'( . I am going to bend it straight tonight or tomorrow and then finish tillering. if you have any concerns/ tips feel free to leave them, i can use all i can get at this point.
here are the pictures : http://imgur.com/a/nNYyU
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Sounds like you have enough sense to prioritize properly. Bows are wonderful, but you got a whole life to spend on them, work now!
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You can tiller it to bend in the handle. Alot of my bows start out not bending in the handle,and due to some screw up on my part end up working in the handle. I have built a few short bows lately that are doing some work in the handle with no real hand shock.
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Looks like it taking shape! Looking forward to seeing some bend.
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Tiller to bend through the handle . And get a hold of some sinew and hide glue , and back it . If you want a bow that will last years , and it's your first , back it . Even with rawhide . Tiller first into half draw length than slap on 2 layers . Than after that you can get a hold of some near flawless wood , build a few bows , than advance to knotty staves like that one . And I know sone bowyers are gunna bust my head with me saying to back it , but thier is a reason sinew is applied to a bow . You lack tillering experience your first bow is going to break , unless you practice black magic. Sinew is NOT difficult to apply . Hide glue is easy to make homemade or if you buy the materials at a store or online , its less than 8 bucks . 8 bucks of glue for more than one bow . And sinew is cheap as dirt on eidnesfurs.com . Or scrap some road kill deer or hunting .
Do you plan on hunting with this bow ? Or do you simply recreational shoot ?
Thiers a big difference . If you want a hunting bow to actually put meat in the pot , back it
If your shooting for fun , than thiers nothing really at stake or on the line . Either way good luck , take a break every 20 minutes of CAREFUL tillering ( walk off and make a sandwhich , get your mind off tillering because it will play mind tricks in ya ) and if you have to take a week , take a week .
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I don't think backing it is necessary at all. That stave has beautiful rings and the knots look pretty negligible to me. Backing does not magically make a poor tillered bow into a good one. You will be far better off to take your time and ask plenty of questions along the way. There's no reason that you can't tiller your first bow correctly if you take your time and get help when your at a tough spot. As far as the bendy handle goes, yep, I agree its a good idea on that short stave. Since its narrowed, it will be very easy to get the handle bending too much and take a lot of set or fail all together. I recommend leaving the handle stiff until you have it tillered out to about 25" and then get it to working. A little bit of bend at the handle will really make the tips move a lot, so easy does it. If done right you should just start to feel the handle starting to bend at about 26". Remember to go slow, take lots of pics, and ask more questions. We will help all we can. Good luck! Josh
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I agree . But that's why it makes sense to tiller the bow into half draw ( 14 - 17 inches ) BEFORE sinew backing . You could sinew back the poorest tillered bow and it will still break . Back a funny tillered one but acceptable equalized stresses of tension and compression and it will survive . Commom sense >:D . I don't think the lad sounds like he doesn't know a scrap about bows . Im pretty sure he could work out an acceptable tiller . Actually I changed my mind . Go semi bender ! All im saying is in a " primitive " situation , itd be down right foolish to waste valuable resources like sinew that could save you the calories from making yet abother bow , and another , and another . Sinew keeps a weel tillered bow alive longer . Fact . But im a short sinew backed addict , dont listen to me ;D . And 60" in my world is like a medevil yew longbow !
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Tanks for all the advice! I will most likely rec. shoot with this bow, though I plan to bow hunt with future bows (I have enough wood to make about 6 staves including this one so I think i can make a descent enough bow by then ;) ) i will most likely back this though, just to be safe, would i be able to just use wood glue instead of hide glue ( just wondering because i already have plenty of that).
also TatankaOhitika, what do you mean by "Go semi bender"?
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TBIII will work well if you want to back it with rawhide. If you decide to go with sinew, I would use hide glue. I agree with Doc, I don't think you will have to back it if you don't want to.
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well i think i will still back it just in case.
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A semi-bender - as in a tillered bow with a handle that doesn't bend completley through ( think lots of hand shock from a fully bending bow ) but IS NOT a solid handle ( non bender ) you get the benefit of less hand shock ( from what you see usually in fully bending bows )and a comfortable grip that gives you MORE draw length and effiency , because more wood is working . I personally use semi bending handles on short 48 - 56 " bows . No sense of using a stiff handled bow in a short design . Even a 60" length would benefit from more draw length . And you learn to shoot accurate from slight hand shock !!
Regardless it is up to you . Tillering a fully bending bow will bring you back to your ancestors roots . A stiff handled bow is great for center shooting and accuracy , but it is less forgiving with tiller and is NOT our ancestors orginal design for a bow . Sinew back only after reading up on it . I agree with the guys here that if you have plenty of good staves , practice your tiller ! But if you want a long lasting , hunting AND recreational shooting bow , spend a lifetime tillering it , and back the bow with at least 2 layers of sinew . Trust me . It will last . Just pay attention to detail .
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And yes , if you can't make hide glue or buy it , forget backing the bow with sinew or rawhide .
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Last post for a bit , I promise 8) . But if you bombard your mind with all these designs and stuff for a bow , you literally run a higher risk for running into bow trouble . Keep it simple . Stick with a design and all the details that follow . But don't take my word for sinew backing completley because I believe in making bows under conditions our ancestors would be under . If I had a fine stave , I sure as hell would not wait to salvage enough sinew or hide scrapings to back it . Id build a nice unbacked bow and hunt with it ( or in your case have fun shooting )
But sinew or rawhide does give you an insurance . Consider your enviroment as well . Is it humid ? Does it rain alot ? A sinew backed bow would become sloppy in these conditions unless you treat it with a solid coat of beeswax or deer fat . It will forgive ring violations and moderate doo doo tillering . But iv'e had poorly tillered bows that were backed break . Its gunna happen . Just see where your at . Keep us posted
-Aaron
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I just steamed the bow and it is now in the garage in some clamps, giving it a bit of a recurve, then tomorrow I am going to finish tillering. i would post pictures of my makeshift contraption but sadly i cannot find my camera. Anything in particular i should do for my string? i was just going to use twine till i get some deacon.
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Artificial sinew is awesome stuff . Anything two ply
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I'm with gun doc...no need to back that..especially with sinew....that's just wasting your time and distarcting you from what you should be paying the most attention too...which is tillering...tillering and proper design makes a bow,and will make a bow last longer than you'll live regardless if its backed or not.....keep it simple when making your first few bows...adding another step to the process just means more time spent on it and trying to learn too much at once...again your focus needs to be on tillering...tiller tiller tiller...I can't stress that enough...the hardest part in the learning curve is tillering...a poorly tillered sinewed bow is still a poorly made bow, and it won't make it better...id leave it unbacked and read and study all you can on how to make a proper bend in a bow...make yourself a tiller gizmo n learn how to use it...it's easy and will help you see what your novice untrained eyes can't see and tell you where you'll need to scrape....
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ive heard that arti sinew is not good for a string
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make yourself a tiller gizmo n learn how to use it...
you mean this thing? a tillering board?
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The tillering gizmo can be found in the "how to" section, third sticky down from the top. As far as the art. sinew goes, there's apparently two different kinds. One is very stretchy and almost worthless for strings. The other kind makes serviceable strings for short bows, not the best, but very serviceable. I wouldn't use it for anything over about 56" though. The longer the string, the more pronounced the stretch. If your gonna keep building bows, buy a roll of b-50 and learn to make strings. It will save you a lot of money in short order. If you start making heavy draw long bows, even the b-50 is too stretchy. Fastflight and the like is better string material by all means, but pretty pricey. Josh
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ok, got it, thanks. I guess i will work on both the tillering board/stick and the gizmo while i have my bow clamped.
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ok, well i have a problem now... i made a tillering board and put my bow up there and slowly went to my 12" notch, and the weirdest thing is happening, the thicker limb is bending more than the thinner limb!, i am trying to get the pictures off my phone but it wont send them to my email for some reason.
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ok, well i have a problem now... i made a tillering board and put my bow up there and slowly went to my 12" notch, and the weirdest thing is happening, the thicker limb is bending more than the thinner limb!, i am trying to get the pictures off my phone but it wont send them to my email for some reason.
Welcome to the weird world of wood! :laugh:
Del
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here's the pictures
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soo... I really don't know how to go about doing this. should I take off wood from the thinner limb like normal, or should I do something else...
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Del said it best, wood is weird sometimes. Disregard the thickness difference between the limbs. It happens sometimes. Just tiller it as normal. This is one of many reasons why you can't duplicate a bow solely on dimensions when using wood. Too many variations. Josh
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ok thanks ;D
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WHOA!!!!!!! Just seen your post about steaming it yesterday! Stop all tillering! You gotta let that thing get back to equilibrium before you start tillering again. It needs to set at least a couple more days, preferably 4 or 5 more days. Man... I wish I would've seen that sooner! Sorry, I missed that. I hope you see this before disaster strikes! Josh
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really? i was doing some research and for the little that i was bending it i saw like 12h was sufficient. but i think i will take your advice, put it back in the clamps and let it set for another day. since it's been out, should i resteam it again a little?
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No need to reclamp. Your bends will have set when it cooled. Your moisture content is what needs to adjust and that takes a bit of time. Man am I glad you checked in! I would have felt like a donkey all week if that would've blown on you. Definitely let it sit a couple days before you do anymore tillering. I know some have worked em the next day after heating (myself included) but it really is an unnecessary risk. Josh
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ok, got it locking up my bow so i don't feel like working on it ;)
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Nice dude ! So far so good ! 8)
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ok, so i might be going out to the craft store later today for a school project, and was wondering what kind of finish i should use. i kinda want something that will bring out the natural yellow of the wood. i was just wondering if you guys had any favorite brands and what-not for this.
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I use spray poly or tru-oil on bows I want to shine. On NA bows, I use a mixture of beeswax and sprucegum I think. I'm not sure of the composition as the finish was a gift from Halfeye. Don't count on the yellow staying yellow. Like Osage, mulberry darkens with time and sunlight exposure. Josh
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I use spray poly or tru-oil on bows I want to shine. On NA bows, I use a mixture of beeswax and sprucegum I think. I'm not sure of the composition as the finish was a gift from Halfeye. Don't count on the yellow staying yellow. Like Osage, mulberry darkens with time and sunlight exposure. Josh
Yeah, 'sage and mulberry both look better after they have gotten enough sun to pick up a tan. But then, I hate the color yellow.
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Haha, ok i think i will just go with a clear "build up" varnish probobly
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Grrrrrrrr >:( . Im too much of a purist to hear the word varnish on a primitive wooden bow . Either way be sure to show us when your done !
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well i'm not to keen on people wasting bacon grease on it either >:(
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Grrrrrrrr >:( . Im too much of a purist to hear the word varnish on a primitive wooden bow . Either way be sure to show us when your done !
Ummm....where does the artificial sinew fit into your "purist" philosophy? If you believe arti sinew is acceptable string material, why not varnish finish? >:D. I have no problem with either and why should I? It's not my bow after all. Josh
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Artificial sinew is awesome stuff .
Ya gotta admit, Gun Doc caught you on that one!
We all pick and chose what we are willing to accept and what we will reject. I personally consider a bandsaw to be an anethema, but will happily load fresh sandpaper onto my DeWalt quarter sheet palm. In fact, I should go out in the garage, grab a Sharpie and write "hypocrisy" across my sander just to remind myself not to take this all too seriously.
But I am really foursquare behind Raptard about not wasting bacon grease. >:(
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ok, i'm back, had a big essay to write and was tillering a little in my free time. i have pictures here of my tillering so far. first 3 are of 18" and second 4 are of 24" (i think, i can't quite remember)
http://imgur.com/a/kGvfW
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Put a short string (full brace height) on it immediately! You've been lingering on that long string far too long!
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I'm working on it! geez first you guys say to take a week to tiller if i have to and now you want me to slap a short string on it? ;) also, i've seen alot on how to choose your string length but the one i see most is 4" shorter than your bow, is this correct?
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ok, i think i am nearing the end of my tillering, i have a hinge on the left limb in the pictures, but other than that, i think it's working pretty good, i am just using para-cord as my string, it is about 3-4" shorter than my bow and does not stretch.
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YouR letting the tips do a majority of the work Soften up your mid limb and fade on both limbs they should be doing more work then your tips but overall it doesn't look to bad at all
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yae, i was kinda planning on taking more off at the jiff container for the left limb and the tear for the right limb.
also on a unrelated note, what are these trade bows i've heard about? just bows you make for other people?
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ok, well i think i'm done tillering (stopping while i'm ahead :P {sort of >:D }) it only has about a 25ish # draw, and is slightly taking with the string (most likely from improper steaming and then tillering). but overall i think it's a good first bow (by my standards). anyway it will most likely become my little brothers or my cousins bow so it shall not be wasted ;D . all i'm going to do is put tung oil or a clear varnish on it and then an arrow shelf and a fishing string handle and it shall be finished.
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I hope you plan on posting the finished product lol
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also on a unrelated note, what are these trade bows i've heard about? just bows you make for other people?
Once or twice a year someone gets the idea to herd us cats into a group and do a bow trade. There are rules and regulations, of course. People decide if they can successfully produce a bow they would be willing to send to a (probable) stranger. If they are feeling up for it they then submit their name, address, phone number, draw length, preferred draw weight, and right/left handed preference, along with bank account numbers, passwords, and where they hide the spare key to their truck. The organizer then mixes it all up in a hat and sends the individual participants their secret victim, erm, recipient and it's ON!
We always strongly recommend you get a few working bows under your belt before jumping in on the trade. We generally have time limits on how long you must be a participant here, and you must be in some semblence of good standing in the community. Certain persons have failed to send out a bow but have received one in the mail. With few exceptions those people are not very welcome in the bow trades.
That's about it.
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along with bank account numbers, passwords, and where they hide the spare key to their truck. The organizer then mixes it all up in a hat and sends the individual participants their secret victim, erm, recipient and it's ON!
We always strongly recommend you get a few working bows under your belt before jumping in on the trade.
sounds like alot of fun! i'll think of doing that when i get a bank account and a few more bows under my belt >:D, also i'll post some pictures after school if i can remember.
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here are the pics http://imgur.com/a/xrwpy
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Yep, i'm going to get plenty of practice this summer. + that's not all, theres still more i have to cut >:D.
http://imgur.com/a/I5TVW
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Since it came in way underweight why not pike it an inch or two on each end and that should bring the weight up. I would start with an inch and see what its at before I went any more. You can also flip the tips some and that will get you a few more pounds.
Grady
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flip the tips :o ? i have no clue what you are talking about :P
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Flip the tips = inducing some recurve in the tips,usually by heating them with a heatgun or steaming .
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ahh yes, ok so i shortend it ~ an inch on each side, what angle should i steam it at?
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I'd stick to shortening the bow and leave "flipping the tips" for a next bow, when you have gained more experience.
It's a sweet bow as is, but the draw weight is just a bit low. Flipping the tips is not as easy as it sounds, and you run a risk of snapping the tips!
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meh, i don't really care i f i ruin this bow, i didn't actually plan on it working :P, more of a test/ learning bow. for example, my next bow will be wider, slightly thicker, and if i bend it i will wait long enough instead of screwing it up like i did this one. but, if you think it would still be better if i left it even with the aforementioned mentality, then so be it, i will just leave it ;D
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Most kids stash porn under their beds, you got staves. Kid, you got it and you got it bad. It's yellow fever and no cure!
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Most kids stash porn under their beds, you got staves. Kid, you got it and you got it bad. It's yellow fever and no cure!
You can always stash both ;) haha
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ok, i was working on my bow, bending it and all, and i had an idea, a very weird (and most likely stupid :o ) idea. has anyone ever tried backing a bow with duct tape? as an idea it sounds weird, but if you think about it the material is basically like a cloth backing with it's own adhesive. i was just wondering if anyone has ever tried it and if so, how well it worked.
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should i correct the straightness of the very tip? or just bend it like that on the other side as well?
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ok here it is, just gunna wait a few days and then i'll be tillering again.
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Hold your horses ::) . I only use artificial sinew for home testing , or general shooting in my wild backyard . Never for hunting . I use my rawhide/sinew/dogbane strings for that ! Besides , artificial sinew requires knowledge on two ply cordage .
Now back to the varnish/bacon grease , blah blah blah deal ! The closest your gunna get to a natural varnish replica is beeswax/fat combo or resin/fat combo . I don't think our ancestors would dig up some magical plant and find the root to be a bottle of varnish . :laugh: And now someone could argue that the use of one steel knife , sandstone , anf smaller flint scrapers still isn't primitive , but one could easily drive a 7 inch flake from a chunk of flint and substitute that for that steel knife / scraper . Along with a 14 pound rough sandstone for a rasp .
Use what you have . Now unto urgent matters ----------> im liking the tiller bud :D !
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now, i need more seasoned advice, do you think this bend is too much? i haven't tried stinging it yet (just steamed it yeasterday) but it seems like when I do string it, it will be way to bent as a whole to be able to have a very long draw at all.
if that makes any sense.
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now, i need more seasoned advice, do you think this bend is too much? i haven't tried stinging it yet (just steamed it yeasterday) but it seems like when I do string it, it will be way to bent as a whole to be able to have a very long draw at all.
if that makes any sense.
Should be able to get same draw but your tillers probably gonna be off when you string it
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ok, because i was thinking that my string is going to have to be ALOT shorter, like i had it 3-4" shorter than the straight bow, but this is going to have to be alot shorter for a brace height high enough to clear the bends.
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ok, because i was thinking that my string is going to have to be ALOT shorter, like i had it 3-4" shorter than the straight bow, but this is going to have to be alot shorter for a brace height high enough to clear the bends.
No no you don't need to shorten your string if it touches the limbs at brace height.. that's fine
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ok, i think i'll test string it tomorrow
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ok, well i stung it an i found out theres a problem.... the string on the left limb slips off the wood and goes forward
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well, looks like i have MORE bending to do :P
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Do you mean when you try to string it it try's to flip around ???
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yae, like it flips from the belly to the back, i drew a line in the pic to show how the string goes, and it touches the bends on both limbs but it is being pushed against them and slides around that limb and goes forward, i will get a pic.
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here it is.
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ok, before i do this, can you "over steam" a bow? like if bend it to many times, could i ruin it? because if so, i'm just going to attach a little peice of wood to it or something to catch the string.
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A bow with that much reflex, cannot be low braced. You can only floor tiller it, and then jump right to a full brace height of 6" or so. But even then, you run a chance of the bow flipping backwards. That's just because you put in a lot of reflex. Personally, I hate to deal with more than 2" of reflex. String bridges will only help so much, in these situations.
The left limb appears to have less reflex (recurve, almost) than the right limb. Not ideal.
Yes, you can steam bend a piece of wood several times without ill effects. Avoid heating the wood more than necessary, but five heat bending sessions should not hurt the bow.
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you really need to take your time tillering that one. not a very easy design to learn on
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ok, well im going to let it rest for a couple days, just o make sure it dont screw up the bend again, and then i will start tillering.
in the mean time, i have to make my father something for fathers day that isn't a bow because i can't make a bow in a week :-\
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ok, i just got an old bowstring + arrow making set from a relative who apparently used to own a bow-shop :o anyway, i was wondering what kind of string i should make
http://digital.cs.usu.edu/~watson/artemisiaca/bowstringhowto.htm
or
http://www.stickbow.com/stickbow/features/flemishstring/flemishstring.html
the first seems much more simple, but i was wondering if one was "superior" to the other.
also, i haven't been on lately because i have been taking a break from my bow before i go back to tillering it :P