Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Thesquirrelslinger on March 19, 2013, 06:18:11 pm
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I was thinking today, and was like, Willow is a weak, brittle wood, but couldn't you make a recurve-deflex out of it? It would be under little to no strain when braced, and would shoot faster than a deflex-tip design, as was used by the Southwest indians and egyptians.
Just a thought, want to know if anyone has tried this. Thanks!
-Squirrel
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Don't you have access to better wood?
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I do, but I want to try this. All I have seasoned right now is a single 38 inch piece of BL, 3 inches diameter. I am going to split it into arrow stock.
It was cut a week ago. I pulled the bark off yesterday.
It is seemingly dry enough...
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personally I wouldn't waste my time, i'd just as soon get a board and chase a ring, jmo, Bub
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Really? 1x2's of oak are really not all that great shooters.
Besides, plenty of string follow and some splinters, great fun.
I suck at making bows with just hand tools. So how essential is a flat belly on an oak bow?
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I suck at making bows with just hand tools.
Then practice and get better!
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a red oak board bow will seem like a flight bow compared to willow, and as far as set and splinters sounds like selection and tillering, but I didn't say get a oak board, I much prefer hard maple
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I'm not here to crush your dream. If you wanna try a willow deflex recurve than go for it.
However, about your statement:
Really? 1x2's of oak are really not all that great shooters.
Besides, plenty of string follow and some splinters, great fun.
I suck at making bows with just hand tools. So how essential is a flat belly on an oak bow?
I have seen well executed 1X2's of red oak that shot above of 170 fps. A well designed piece of red oak can make as stable and hard hitting of a bow as you could ask for, and with not much effort. Might be worth looking into. But I really think you should try willow if you've got the itch. Bow making is all about the journey. And maybe you will find something others haven't discovered.
Gabe
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Really? 1x2's of oak are really not all that great shooters.
Better than Christmas trees.... And besides you'd actually have to make a bow out of red oak in order to complain about them.
edit... My bad I thought you were squirrel slayer...
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Best advice I can give you is; be patient, and use the best bow wood you have access to. Even if its red oak. Which has been proven many times over to make a great bow.
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I have. 3 of them.
ALl have sucked enough I do not call them bows, except one, which is 35 pounds(and feels sluggish).
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So now you're blaming the red oak? Because YOU made those three failures? And now you expect miracles from willow?
I've had enough with this troll.
Don't feed the troll.
Don't feed the troll.
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So now you're blaming the red oak? Because YOU made those three failures? And now you expect miracles from willow.
I've had enough with this troll.
Don't feed the troll.
Don't feed the troll.
Well, that wasn't nice. More importantly though, would it be considered troll slaying or troll slinging? >:D
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Whereabouts do you live? Since i've moved to the perpetually grey-and-moist Boston area the red oak bows i've made have taken more string follow then I expected. The best solution i've found is to heat treat them.
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let me help you out here. I will tell you that red oak is a decent bow wood. Its ALL in the design, board selection, tiller, ect. There is so much that goes into making a successful bow. you have to be aware of what your using. Splinters depends on how your working your bow. i round the backs edges before i even start tillering. splinters shouldn't be a big issue if you got a nice piece of wood. as for it being sluggish, i would prefer to think thats just bad tillering or whatnot. the best bow i made was for my sister, plenty of set and was only 3/4 inches wide, 56 inches long, and it shoots like a dream. I think the common mistake is that tips are WAY to thick or way to wide. and the other thing that may effect this is the style of the belly. her bow is FLAT belly. another that i made was slightly convex and it took tons of set. I think it is VERY important to select a GOOD style for your bow, if you dont you run the risk of set, which robs from the cast.
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Well last time i tried a willow bow i thought: willow is extremely strong in tension but in compression it's crap. So i heat treated both limbs and then went to continue floor tilering it. Evidently that wasn't enough because it chrysaled on every inch of the bow! I don't think it's that great of a bow wood :'(.
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Whereabouts do you live? Since i've moved to the perpetually grey-and-moist Boston area the red oak bows i've made have taken more string follow then I expected. The best solution i've found is to heat treat them.
Thank you for coming up with a possible reason to my problem.
I was told by a bowyer that a slightly crowned belly is not bad for an oak bow, plus I made them in the spring, when I could not shoot them cause of rain. They and all my bow wood are stored in the garage.
and I am NOT blaming the wood for my problem.
The bows were made as follows-
All are 1 1/2 inch wide, slightly crowned belly. They have a rectangular cross section- the back is the milled surface of the board. only 3 rings are exposed, all edges are slightly off parallel to the centerline. They were what appeared to be miracle bow wood when I picked them out. I like red oak, and as a bow wood, IMO, it has no equel for cost and availability.
The bows took a consistant 3 inches of set, 70 inches long, sluggish cast. Sort of like wet hickory.
Also lots of handshock, but when I thinned the tips, it dissapeared. The new one I am working on has the following differences- I am trying to make the belly flat, back with rounded corners.
I do love how this went from a question to a "YOU IDIOT" thread. From now on, I will just skype message some friends.
I just wanted to ask a question, Did not expect this to happen.
I have a good red oak bow- it is about 30 inches long with a 14 inch draw, shoots bamboo skewers:D
I want to scale it up. Would tapering from the handle to the tips instead of the last 15 inches make the bow shoot faster? I also am going to make this bow 45-50 pounds, instead of 35.
I am not going to sign this post, and I greatly regret starting this thread.
Maybe a willow bow.... ERC belly or core.
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When I first started making bows I had no idea about what wood was better "bow wood " I just grabbed what ever tree I found I remember making a crappy diamond willow bow and it worked for me most people say don't even waste your time but yet they've never even used it . I think you should try the willow do the reflex deflex design make the limbs really wide and make it long
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Before you get bent out of shape, I think that some people were mistaking you for someone else, I know I did when i read this the first two times. There is a young fella that goes by 'squirrelslayer' on here and he has worn some people's patience pretty thin. I think at least some of the snippy responses were written with him in mind and not you. Good luck with your bow. 8)
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Apparently board bows can be just as good as stave bows, and oak is not a bad wood. Don't ask me tho, i don't know smack about boards lol. ;D
I don't see how trying to make a willow bow is an idiot move at all. Expermintattion is part of bow making, so go for it! You'll learn alot and if it is successful you'll prove the idiots dissing on you wrong.
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I want to scale it up. Would tapering from the handle to the tips instead of the last 15 inches make the bow shoot faster? I also am going to make this bow 45-50 pounds, instead of 35.
You mean like a pyramid shape? That is a great idea, along with the flat belly, but if you start with a bow 1.5" wide 45-50# is too much. I made a 45# pyramid shaped red oak bow that narrows from 2.5" wide near the handle, staying this width for about 6", then tapering to the tips. This bow was 71" ntn, 45# @ 29", trapped back and ended up taking more set than I wanted. I had not heat treated this bow. If you are in a similarly damp environment, you could probably do this same design but heat treated to prevent some set. I always wondered what would have happened if I heat treated the belly and didn't trap the back as much...
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Before you get bent out of shape, I think that some people were mistaking you for someone else, I know I did when i read this the first two times. There is a young fella that goes by 'squirrelslayer' on here and he has worn some people's patience pretty thin. I think at least some of the snippy responses were written with him in mind and not you. Good luck with your bow. 8)
That's who I thought it was...
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My first bow ever, was made for me by my dad. It was a 35# willow oak bow. I was a teen when he made it, and I dont recal the draw length. I do recall It being a decent caster, and it lasted me many many years. It would still be shooting today if I hadnt mis-behaved....
Anyways, willow oak does just fine, couldnt say about any outher oak...
We do have alot of squirels runnin round here...
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I personaly think making the Willow bow is a great idea, not because it's a great wood, but if you can make a shootable bow of willow(and learn from it) tear it up! I don't think you will find a group of guys waiting to cut that one special....willow tree. :D I do the same thing with flint knapping.....I have literally tons of almost perfect stone, yet I always (for the most part) reach for the crap, it's a challenge to me, and yep I bust most of it! :laugh:
Let's have a willow bow contest...that would be interesting... :laugh:
VMB
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The first bow I ever made I thought was willow. I'll show them "experts" it can be done. It was a right snappy little 20# bow (still is). Typical noob wieght though. Found out later it was actually Hackberry. ;D
Some of the natives in the SW and Northern Mexico used willow for deflex tipped bows and fed their families just fine. It's all in the design for the use and conditions
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if you look in the Traditional Bowyers Bible 1 you will find that you can make a bow out of ANY wood, granted you have to make the bow really wide if its weaker and thinner if its stronger. one guy made a 6 inch wide pine bow which i guess shot, so basically if you plan to do this then you need to make the bow really wide, as in 4 inches wide or more. you can make a nice one, just be cautious. and on top of that you would probably need to modify the handle section so that there is a hole in the middle for an arrow pass.(not sure how stable it is)
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Make the willow bow and post your progress. Bows have been made from it before. Someone built one out of tree of heaven last year and changed my way of thinking of bow wood.
Tracy
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I thought your initial post was Squirrelslayer as well, so appologies are in order for that. He has shown to be a bit imature and has worn alot of the guys out with his.....how shall I say it....???? foolishness, yes thats it, foolishness.
As far as willow is concerned, I would imagine that it is possible and the above post that recommends making it wider and longer is a good idea. I have a different approach to bowmaking, I like to stack the deck in my favor by making sure that the wood I'm working with as a species stands a good chance of making a shooter if I do my part. For me I don't have enough time on my hands to waste it on something that is'nt going to produce results. Others like to try everything and to each his own.
Call me a chicken, but I don't like to fail even though I know that I will from time to time. So I try and make sure that I am at least giving myself a good chance to succeed by using methods and material that have been proven over time. I know that the explorers cast all that to the wind and I am glad there are those out there like that because I have learned alot from there experiences. Danny
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It sounds like your new into it and I'd say definitely give it a go. I've made many bows out of less than ideal woods and they shoot. They aren't as efficient, or dependable for a good turn out, but they shoot and I learned much by making them. Experimentation is a good thing for a learning curve. All you've got to lose is the time you put into it but that doesn't change even with osage, because they break at times, also.
Keep it wide, real wide, longer and reflex/recurve the tips. See what happens, why not?
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Called borrower 904-540-3244 and made arrangements to email the document to him at mrc37@juno.com. Sent the VA acknowledgement of no inspection.
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Hey Squirrel, its Dan from Slinging.org.
I'd say go for it, maybe just deflex it. Keep it really wide (3" would be reasonable) most of its length (and also keep it long as possible) and see what happens.
Worse case scenario you have some well seasoned kindling but more bow making expierience. :)
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Don't have an opinion on the willow, but i do on the oak. I suspect that a lot of your cast and set problem (actually, all) is due to three factors:
1. too narrow (oak needs to be at least 2" wide for a decent weight), and yes a pyramid is one of the best designs for oak
2. crowned as opposed to flat belly
(these two have been identified, but there's a third...)
3. a garage kept and tillered bow during the rainy months. I'd say that raised your mc and caused a lot of cast-robbing set.
If you don't live in a dry-ish climate, temper the belly (either way it will increase cast). As far as splinters, i'd also suspect the board selection based on your statments ("all edges slightly off parallel"). You also have to watch the actual grain direction in oak (any board for that matter), not just the ring orientation.
I'd say try a great tempered design on a prime red oak stave, and you'll probably give up on trying willow ;)
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Willow is no bow wood!
A christmas tree is pine and no bow wood too
Take everything else - it would be better
everything is said (IMO)
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i always keep my bows and staves that are already dried in my house. it probably isnt the best conditions, but either way its not terrible either. i only keep the bow out there in my garage for tillering. and since its probably around 70% relative humidity its a good thing i dont. ive always gotten set, so maybe i just need to heat temper because it does help to reduce set. if your using a board, its almost a must that you keep the belly flat, because the back is flat. another thing i have yet to try is to not hold the bow at full draw for more than a second or 2. that helps. and on top of that, while tillering you should have it at whatever draw for no more than a second or two because holding it there at a certain draw can rob it of cast as well. im still working on this of course but ill get there. One way of solving this is to use a pulley system that you can draw up and down over and over without holding it at a draw for more that a second at any one time.
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CHECk THiS GUys willow bow out ! http://northernwildernesskills.blogspot.com/2010/10/alaskan-willow-bow.html?m=1.
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Everyone on this topic has me wanting to go harvest some willow and even worse wood then willow,,, cotton wood Im really considering harvesting some cotton wood and Willow and try an make a hunting weight bow from it iin just feeling up to the challenge.
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Go for it superstar.
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If you already have the willow and don't have other plans for it, then go for it. Nothing ventured, nothing gained right? With the right design and some luck, you might just get something out of it...but I wouldn't be counting on it.
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Wow, this is encouraging. Sorry guys, All I have is an oak 1x2 that is 75 inches long, as well as willow. the oak is already started. I am going to try with the willow. Maybe a weak bow, Heck, a 25 pound recurve is not bad.
Short draw- 20-25 inches.
THanks for the advice. I have heard of pyramid bows....
I tried to pick the boards from the pile that had good, straight, not-crazy-swirly grain.
Should i try to work the board down to one ring? it will probably end up around 1.5 inches wide...
Also I got a 6 inch diam ash log, around 100 inches long. I am probably going to make some light bows and some arrows from it.
-Squirrel.
Also, who is this Squirrelslayer guy?
Also, Hello Dan!
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Ash is a pretty dang good Bow wood. Improve your skills on the Willow. Cut the Ash to 65" and 35" then make a couple "mear heath" style bows and some split timber arrows from the ash.
That's what I'd do. Again, learn some woodworking skills on the willow, and learn all you can about tillering and bow design before starting on that Ash log.
I don't know much about board bowsbut I'm sure the other guys on here would be more than willing to help you out.
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Can you post pics of your board? Easier to see if it is fine as-is rather than talk it out.
Jawge has some good info on picking boards to compare:
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,15690.0.html (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,15690.0.html)
I wouldn't chase the ring unless it was sub-par otherwise. If you can only get 1.5" width, make it longer and go with a more parallel limb design imo. You'd be surprised what a difference tempering the belly will make.
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Hm... How to temper a board belly? Never tried it. have 2 heat-things- Fire, and a 28 inch wide oven.
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squirrely you can temper with the stovetop burner set some blocks up to get the stave about 4" off the burner go from there, try and get a nice brown color to the belly
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Heat guns are pretty cheap,bout 20 or so bucks,have use a propne torch with sucess as long as you keep it moving!stove element would also but you would have to make a a jig to hold it in reflex,
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It'd be really cool to use fire, that's how the natives did it! I've seen some posts on here with folks reverse stringing a floor tillered stave (very low!) to hold the reflex, then tempered the entire limb over coals. Course I'm lazy and like to do other things while the tempering, so i use a heat gun and prop it up;)
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Hm... I like the fire idea.
I do some blacksmithing...
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First guy I helped build a bow did it out of peachleaf willow. It pulls 50 lbs at 28", took 3 inches of set, has handshock like nobody's business and throws a 500 grain arrow at a puny 128 fps. But it shoots, has not chrysalled, and has been shooting for 6 years.
Stick that in your smoke and pipe it!
Go for it, slinger!